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Futuwwa

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Replacement theology is so... well... unbiblical. How can you be grafted into something that is not valid? Just ignorant IMO.

Well, Paul makes clear in rather uncertain terms in his letters that the old covenant has been replaced with a new.
 
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ChazakEmunah

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If jews believe that Jewness ethnically comes from mother , then why do you give the fatherless birth of Isa's/Jesus' as an evidence to reject his messiahship?
Because although Jewishness is passed by the mother, tribal lineage is passed by the father. The Messiah must be descended from the line of David through his father. And adoption doesn't cut it. If a person is not descended from David, then they are automatically disqualified from ever being the Messiah.
 
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anisavta

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Well, Paul makes clear in rather uncertain terms in his letters that the old covenant has been replaced with a new.

Please explain to me what you consider old covenant and what you consider new.

As far as what do Jews think of Messianics - depends on who you talk to. The spectrum is all the way from live and let live to hatred and annihilation.
Messianic is a relative term. Those of us who believe in Yeshua as Mashiach of couse connect Messianic to Yeshua, but Lubavitchers are also considered messianic because they believe their messiah has come in the person of Rabbi Schneerson.
Most in the middle Jews think Messianics are going against Judaism because of the declaration, "Sh'mah Israel ADONAI Eloheinu ADONAI echad. Hear O Israel the LORD our G~d, the LORD is one. They don't understand and connect that echad does not mean the number one, but a unity. However there is a small but powerful sect of Jews who feel Messianics are worse than Hamas and are stealing the souls of Jews. This animosity stems from all the persecution Jews have had to endure at the hands of "christians" thru the centuries. They want all Christians and Jewish believers in Yeshua killed.
 
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ChavaK

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How do Jews generally view Messianic Jews? To me, they seem more like Christians in denial.


I agree....they are Christians who refuse to admit they are Christian.

Until they do teshuva, and repent of their idol worship, they are
an affront to G-d and Torah.
 
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ChavaK

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Lubavitchers are also considered messianic because they believe their messiah has come in the person of Rabbi Schneerson.
A small percentage of Lubavitchers believe this.....
Most in the middle Jews think Messianics are going against Judaism because of the declaration, "Sh'mah Israel ADONAI Eloheinu ADONAI echad. Hear O Israel the LORD our G~d, the LORD is one.
That, plus Jesus did not fulfill the Messianic prophecies; and we do not
believe the moshiach is coming to redeem us personally from sin.
They don't understand and connect that echad does not mean the number one, but a unity.
A unity of the trinity? Is that what you are saying? I am not sure I
understand this comment. And you are an expert on what we should
believe; that we do not understand Hebrew?
However there is a small but powerful sect of Jews who feel Messianics are worse than Hamas and are stealing the souls of Jews. This animosity stems from all the persecution Jews have had to endure at the hands of "christians" thru the centuries. They want all Christians and Jewish believers in Yeshua killed.
this must be a very small, powerless sect of Jews because I have never
heard a Jew say a Messianic Jew should be killed. We pray that they
give up the avoda zara, not that they should be killed. And I have never
heard any Jew say Chrisitians killed.....what the Christians believe is
irrelevant to us...
 
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Meshavrischika

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Now.... can we all agree to put "I believe" so that some of us don't get offended? I do believe that Jesus fulfilled the prophecies... and this kinda irks me. Love ya Chava, really, but it is not factual in all people's lives as it is in yours. I'm not offended, but felt like I needed to say that we all have (or alot of us have) differing opinions and the statement "I believe" can soften things to the point there is not offense, but understanding of our differences.
 
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ChavaK

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Now.... can we all agree to put "I believe" so that some of us don't get offended? I do believe that Jesus fulfilled the prophecies... and this kinda irks me. Love ya Chava, really, but it is not factual in all people's lives as it is in yours. I'm not offended, but felt like I needed to say that we all have (or alot of us have) differing opinions and the statement "I believe" can soften things to the point there is not offense, but understanding of our differences.

I understand your point, and of course did not mean to offend you :hug:

It just seems redudent to say "I believe...".
Of course that is what I believe or I wouldn't be saying what I am saying.;)

Guess I have gotten conditioned by the MF, where no one says "I believe",
more along the lines of "this is the way it is, period", LOL.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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That, plus Jesus did not fulfill the Messianic prophecies; and we do not
believe the moshiach is coming to redeem us personally from sin.
Shalom ChavaK. What do you make of these 2 passages in the OT/OC? How will YHWH atone the Hebrew Israelites/Jews from the "Death and Sheol"? Just curious on the Jewish view of this. Thanks. :wave:

Isaiah 28:15 Because ye-say: `We-cut/karath a-Covenant with Death, And-with Sh@'owl we-made a seer/02374 chozeh,
18 And-shall-be-atoned/03722 kaphar, Covenant-of-you with Death, and-seer/02380 chazuwth with Sh@'owl,..[#02374 used in 2 Samuel 24:11]

Hosea 13:14 "From hand of Sh@'owl I shall release/rescue/06299 padah them; from Death I shall Redeem/01350 ga'al them. Where plagues of you Death?. Where sting of you Sh@'owl? Regret shall be hidden from My eyes.
 
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ShirChadash

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Shalom ChavaK. What do you make of these 2 passages in the OT/OC? How will YHWH atone the Hebrew Israelites/Jews from the "Death and Sheol"? Just curious on the Jewish view of this. Thanks. :wave:

Isaiah 28:15 Because ye-say: `We-cut/karath a-Covenant with Death, And-with Sh@'owl we-made a seer/02374 chozeh,
18 And-shall-be-atoned/03722 kaphar, Covenant-of-you with Death, and-seer/02380 chazuwth with Sh@'owl,..[#02374 used in 2 Samuel 24:11]

Hosea 13:14 "From hand of Sh@'owl I shall release/rescue/06299 padah them; from Death I shall Redeem/01350 ga'al them. Where plagues of you Death?. Where sting of you Sh@'owl? Regret shall be hidden from My eyes.

LLOJ is there some reason you couldn't possibly use a less annoying-to-read as all get out version of the Bible, when you share verses for discussion purposes?
 
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anisavta

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That, plus Jesus did not fulfill the Messianic prophecies; and we do not
believe the moshiach is coming to redeem us personally from sin.

this must be a very small, powerless sect of Jews because I have never
heard a Jew say a Messianic Jew should be killed. We pray that they
give up the avoda zara, not that they should be killed. And I have never
heard any Jew say Chrisitians killed.....what the Christians believe is
irrelevant to us...

Actually there are over 300 prophesies that Yeshua fulfilled. The first one being Genesis 3:15.
If HaMoshiach is only a political redeemer, why did he not rescue His people from the holocaust - that was the worst possible time in our existence. I would have had family not have to go thru the horrors of that then. When would be a good time for him to come? What political regime would warrant him to come back? And if not politically and if not spiritually, why would a moshiach be needed at all? What do we need to be redeemed from?

I wish you were wrong about the sect beign weak and powerless.

http://www.youtube.com/user/jmorgantv

This situation I am personally involved with. Watching the videos were difficult for me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EsAIr1kiMw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IklgIRv3764
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus
Shalom ChavaK. What do you make of these 2 passages in the OT/OC? How will YHWH atone the Hebrew Israelites/Jews from the "Death and Sheol"? Just curious on the Jewish view of this. Thanks. :wave:

Isaiah 28:15 Because ye-say: `We-cut/karath a-Covenant with Death, And-with Sh@'owl we-made a seer/02374 chozeh,
18 And-shall-be-atoned/03722 kaphar, Covenant-of-you with Death, and-seer/02380 chazuwth with Sh@'owl,..[#02374 used in 2 Samuel 24:11]

Hosea 13:14 "From hand of Sh@'owl I shall release/rescue/06299 padah them; from Death I shall Redeem/01350 ga'al them. Where plagues of you Death?. Where sting of you Sh@'owl? Regret shall be hidden from My eyes.
LLOJ is there some reason you couldn't possibly use a less annoying-to-read as all get out version of the Bible, when you share verses for discussion purposes?
:confused: This is direct from the Hebrew and how I prefer to translate the Sacred Scriptures. How do you translate them?

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1028.htm

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Isaiah 28:15 Because ye-say: `We-cut a-Covenant with Death, And-with Sh@'owl we-made a seer,
18 And-shall-be-atoned/03722 kaphar, Covenant-of-you with Death, and-seer with Sh@'owl,.

טו כִּי אֲמַרְתֶּם, כָּרַתְנוּ בְרִית אֶת-מָוֶת, וְעִם-שְׁאוֹל, עָשִׂינוּ חֹזֶה; שיט (שׁוֹט) שׁוֹטֵף כִּי-עבר (יַעֲבֹר) לֹא יְבוֹאֵנוּ, כִּי שַׂמְנוּ כָזָב מַחְסֵנוּ וּבַשֶּׁקֶר
נִסְתָּרְנוּ. {פ}
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Actually there are over 300 prophesies that Yeshua fulfilled. The first one being Genesis 3:15.
Hi. But He was suppose to fulfill ALL of them in order for the Jews/Israelites to know He was the Messiah. What ones did he FAIL to fulfill for them if I may ask?

The way Revelation reads, He Consummated everything prophecied concerning the OC Nations of Judah and Israel.
Paul is quoting from Zech 14:5 the same event shown in the Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation. Still studying on this though. Thoughts? :wave:

http://www.scripture4all.org/

1 Thessalonians 3:13 Into the stand-fast of ye, the hearts blameless in together-holiness before the God and Father of us in the Parousia <3952> of the Lord of us, Jesus Christ, with all of the holy-ones of Him [Zech 14:5/Revelation 19:11.]

Reve 19:11 And I perceived the heaven having be opened and Lo! A horse, white and the One sitting on it/him being called Faithful and True and in justice He is judging and is battling. 14 And the armies, the in the heaven, followed to him on horses, white, having been inslipped/dressed linen, white, clean,

Zech 14:5 And you flee ravine of mountains, that he shall touch ravine of mountains to 'Atsel. And you flee as which you fled from before the earthquake in days of `Uzziyah king of Y@huwdah and He comes, YHWH my Elohiym, all of holy-ones with You. [1 Thess 3:13/Reve 19]
 
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ChavaK

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Actually there are over 300 prophesies that Yeshua fulfilled. The first one being Genesis 3:15.
Christians read many verses...such as this...as being prophetic
where as Judaism does not see them as such.
Christianity also reads many prophecies as relating to the moshiach,
which again Judaism interprets differently.
If HaMoshiach is only a political redeemer, why did he not rescue His people from the holocaust -
I can ask the same thing about Jesus...why did he not come back for
his second appearance, and save Jews? Was he only sent to redeem
people from their personal sin, rather than be saved from physical
destruction? Why did he not come back, save them from the ovens, and then redeem them from sin?
Is it right-from a Christian POV-to allow these millions to be murdered while in a "unsaved" state?

It is a question that has never been answered in a satisfactory manner...
why did G-d allow it to happen?

The moshiach will come either when we merit his arrival, or when we are
so far lost that his appearance is necessary to get us on the road to
teshuva.
 
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Meshavrischika

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i think the hard part is that (at least for me) my christianity causes me to pretty much dismiss the body as a thing i should worry about long term... thus, while there are horrible things that can and do happen on this earth, they are of secondary importance to me. KWIM Chava?
 
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