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Jewish members who visit CF

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by ShirChadash, May 27, 2008.

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  1. anisavta

    anisavta Never Forget!

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    Hey GT - looks like we have good taste. And we know a good cat when we see one too.:thumbsup:
     
  2. Talmidah

    Talmidah היום כולם יודעים - הרב כהנא צדק

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    How cute!
     
  3. synger

    synger Confessional Liturgical Lutheran Supporter

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    So what makes a Jew a Jew? Isn't that the heart of the question? Is it family, belief, practice... or some combination of all three?

    When I was younger and studying all sorts of various Christian and pseudo-Christian paths, I became active in the Worldwide Church of God (Herbert W. Armstrong) before they watered down their doctrine to make it more mainstream. I avoided unclean food, kept the Sabbath, and various other so-called "Old Testament" laws. When I read the FSGs for the Messianic forum, those are some of the same practices that I see mentioned.

    I find it fascinating to listen in on the discussion of how one self-identifies as Messianic or Messianic Jew, since the movement has grown so much in the past decade or so and we're seeing more and more of it. I think it is immensely important for Christians to understand the Jewish roots of our faith, and from my time in Armstrongism and my study of Scripture I kinda understand why someone would wish to incorporate some of the Jewish practices into one's worship.

    Not sure why someone who does not have Jewish family or history would wish to consider themselves Jewish if they do not have the Jewish faith, though. For me, a Jew has to have at least one of two -- Jewish family or faith -- for me to consider them a Jew. I don't think it is enough just to follow Jewish practice... or the Armstrongites would be Jews, too.
     
  4. ChavaK

    ChavaK להיות טוב ולעשות טוב

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    What makes a Jew a Jew is one of two things....
    either born to a Jewish mother, or having
    converted halachaly to Judaism.

    As far as a definition of who is a Jew, it does not
    matter what religion, if any, they practice.
    If a Jew involves themselves in another religion,
    they are not practicing Judaism but they are still a Jew.

    Doesn't matter what family ties they have.
    Doesn't matter what community ties they have.

    The only thing that makes a Jew a Jew, is having
    a Jewish mother or being a convert to Judaism.

    This is frequently a hard concept for non-Jews to
    understand...
    :wave:
     
  5. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    Shalom ChavaK. I understand thee clearly on that, though my desire and wish is for ALL to come to the faith that is of JESUS but JESUS is also a hard concept to understand, especially within Christ-ianity and Islam.
    Peace and Love to you and yours. :hug:

    http://www.scripture4all.org/

    Deut 28:13 And YHWH gives you to head and not to tail, and you become surely to above and not you shall become to below. That you shall listen to instructions of YHWH your 'Elohiym which I instructing you the day to observe and to do.

    John 8:22 Said then the Judeans:, "No-any he shall be killing Himself, that He is saying: 'the-where I am going away, ye not able to be coming'"
    23 And He said to them, "Ye out of the below/katw <2736> are, I out of the above/anw <507> am. Ye out of this, the world, are. I not am out of the world, this.
    24 I said then to ye, that ye shall be dying/apoqaneisqe <599> (5695) in the sins of ye, for if-ever no ye should be believing that I am, ye shall be dying in the sins of ye.' [Deuteronomy 18:18]
    36 Answered the Jesus, "the kingdom, the Mine, not is out of the world, this. If out of the world, this, the kingdom, the Mine, the servants to Me contended, that no I may be being given up to the Judeans. Now yet the kingdom, the Mine, not is hence."
     
  6. Ramona

    Ramona If you can't see my siggy, I've disappeared ;) Supporter

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    Talmidah! :hug: I did get your PM, but I haven't responded...that's my fault. I've been pretty bad about responding to people's PM's and emails as of late...I'll get on google talk now, though.

    Well...yes. It was nearly a year ago when I had that teary conversation with my best friend (who is now my other half) about G-d holding the Jews to different standards. This was before he became agnostic and before I found out about my ethnicity, but I believe his exact words were, "You don't have to be perfect because you weren't selected to be a part of His chosen people." And I can't even begin to articulate why, but that hit me like a ton of bricks. I cried constantly for a week and then on-and-off for a few months. I can only assume that "gentile" Messianics feel the same way.

    Ger - I do understand what you've said to me, so thanks for taking the time to type all that out. However (and don't get hurt by this!), I reject any notions of "chosen people," and any scriptures that support this notion. I've found that I'm pretty incapable of identifying with Orthodox theology, and I feel like I'll never really fit in.
     
  7. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    Greeting HoD! I know this wasn't addressed to me but when you were a believer in YHWH did you ever to per-chance study on the Melchizedek in the Bible.?

    I would say I am finding it incapable of identifying with much of orthodox Christianity [note link in my Siggy for one reason LOL] perhaps for some of the same reasons you say about Orthodox Judaism. Hope this doesn't offend anyone here. Peace :hug:

    http://www.scripture4all.org/

    Hebrews 7:1 For this the Malkiy-Tsedeq/melcisedek <3198>, King of Salem/salhm <4532>, Priest/iereuV <2409 of the GOD of the most-high, the together-joining Abraham turning-back from the smiting of the kings, and did bless him. [Genesis 14:18]
    12 For being changed the Priesthood, out of necessity also, of Law a change is becoming.

    http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/priest/RP24.htm

    One of the most intriguing descriptions of the unique character of the High Priesthood of Jesus is found in Heb. 7:17 wherein it is stated, "Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek." This one grand statement shows that Jesus is not like any of the other priests who the people of Israel knew so much about. The entire seventh chapter of Hebrews is about THE MELCHIZEDEK CONNECTION,
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 28, 2008
  8. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    Btw, just to let others know about how some view Preston Eby and his commentaries, here is a site that makes him out to be anti-semitic.
    Though I agree with some or a lot of his commentaries as I do from other Christian commentators, I always check the Scriptures to makes sure these things are so.

    I view the Jewish/Hebrew Christian Book of Revelation as a change of Priesthood/Covenants which is different than the way "most" of my fellow Christian bretherens view it Peace :groupray:

    http://www.aquatechnology.net/ebyheresies.html

    .......The anti-semitic MSOG movement that Eby claims to govern his ministry incorrectly and boldly appropriates the title "elect" from that of the remnant of Israel described during the Tribulation's Time of Jacob's Trouble, and applies it to themselves in true Replacement Theology fashion.

    Eby's writing ministry includes a monthly message titled KINGDOM BIBLE STUDIES as well as a number of booklets on various subjects. We discuss this subject below.

    Eby attempts to carry the OT priesthood in Israel to the current day church. This is classical Replacement Theology and incorrectly appropriates the program that God set up for Israel prior to the time of the Cross when Jesus Christ became our priest and mediator between man and God.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 28, 2008
  9. ChavaK

    ChavaK להיות טוב ולעשות טוב

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    This is not meant to be rude, but this person has no concept of what
    "chosen people" means.

    You really do need to study and learn what this "chosen people" really
    means. The last thing it means is exclusionary and superiority....
    please study it (we can provide links if you would like them) and
    then make a decision.....do not reject it on the basis of a false
    premise as to what it actually means...
    :hug:
     
  10. Ramona

    Ramona If you can't see my siggy, I've disappeared ;) Supporter

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    Thanks, Chava. :hug: I do know what it means. Perhaps we don't really view everything it means in the same light, but I am aware of what it means.

    Maybe you can explain to me what it means to you.
     
  11. GeratTzedek

    GeratTzedek Meaning Righteous Proselyte to Judaism

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    I remember when I first learned this, and how I had to create an entirely new category in my brain for it. The difficulty lies with the fact that non-Jews normally tend to think in terms of "Are the Jews a race or are they a religion?" It used to confuse me to no end when I'd be in the forum and someone would make the remark, "Well, X is an ethnic Jew but not a religious Jew," and every Jew in the forum would reply, "A Jew is a Jew is Jew." The part of the answer about being born of a Jewish mother makes it sound like race, while the part about converts makes it sound like a religion. I finally realized I was having difficulties understanding because it really wasn't either of those. Can I give this a shot? Feel free to tweak if I need correction.

    The Jews are a PEOPLE. While their may be some common DNA, a people is not strictly a DNA group or race or ethnicity. Why? Because outsiders are fully adopted into a people, and others who may be genetically related are NOT part of a people.

    We tend to think of "converts" as someone adopting the Jewish religion, but it is much more than that. What is really happening is that converts are being adopted into the Jewish PEOPLE. Accepting the covenant fully is simply the criteria for that adoption to be approved. Technically, someone COULD be adopted into the Jewish People who does not observe the covenant--but that would be disastrous for the sake of their soul, and so it is not done.

    My friend tells me the story of asking his rabbi why converts are put through so much, and held to such high standards, when most Jews in fact don't observe to this level. The rabbi made this reply, which if you think about it makes a lot of sense: "They have seven laws to follow, and they follow them, and they have a place in the world to come. If I convert them knowing they will not honor the 613, I have put them into jeopardy. Why would I take good goyim and turn them into bad Jews?"

    Jews are: a PEOPLE with a covenant.
     
  12. NavyGuy7

    NavyGuy7 Guest

    +0
    LOL, I love your sig. Tis what I always do!
    And cat... cat... cat.... CAT..... AHAHA! HURR HURR, I HAS A KITTEH!!!
    Iz liek dis one...
    [​IMG]

    THis is SOOOOOOOO me....lol. I am not a morning hyoomin.
     
  13. GeratTzedek

    GeratTzedek Meaning Righteous Proselyte to Judaism

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    Dear Heart:

    You are already "in." It's like family. You might not feel like you fit in, but they'z still family. :kiss: Who totally EVER feels like they completely fit in? I suppose there are those rare few. Do you know when you realize you really fit in even though you feel like you don't? When you go to another faith community (including the secular groups) and recognize how totally foreign everything is. Then you realize that you are just a different flower in the bouquet of your own group, but you are certainly not a mammal or a fruit or piece of electronics.

    By the way, what is your husband, and how is he dealing with all these changes during your journey?
     
  14. GeratTzedek

    GeratTzedek Meaning Righteous Proselyte to Judaism

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    Okay Navy Guy, I'm gonna risk an off topic post. :D You've heard of Mommy & Me dance classes? Well check out the Kitty & Me one!
    [​IMG]
     
  15. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    Here ya go HoD :)

    [​IMG]
     
  16. anisavta

    anisavta Never Forget!

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    NavyGuy7 - I can soooo relate to your cat. Since no one knows my REAL name here I can confess.:liturgy:
    OK back to reality...

    As Tevye says in Fiddler on the Roof, "I know, I know. We are Your chosen people. But, once in a while, can't You choose someone else? "
    For the Western cultured people this idea of being chosen or not chosen really gets boxers in a bunch. "How can you be chosen and I'm not???" Kind of like being chosen for a baseball game back in Jr High.
    But way back when G~d wanted to reveal Himself to people, that's how He did it. He took a group of people from a pagan culture and said now you'll be My people who are Holy and set apart just like Me. And I'll even give you the rule book so you can see what I want. But we all know how that turned out so here we are in our modern world of the diasporia where we sometimes don't know who the Jews really are because of all the mixed marriages and mixed cultures and conversion by death.
    But if you want to make aliya you have to have proof of either a mother (or now father) being Jewish or conversion to Judaism. ie by blood or religion is the only way in Israel that you can claim to be Jewish.
    Yes we are all chosen by G~d through Yeshua as far as redemption :clap: but that for sure won't get you a citizenship in Israel.
    So no matter how much a Gentile wants to be a Jew, it isn't just a matter of saying, "now I am a Jew". There are covenants to keep and laws to obey (even though our Yom Kippur sacrifice has been secured thru Yeshua) and no just because of that we can't run to the local deli and order a ham sammy.;)
     
  17. GeratTzedek

    GeratTzedek Meaning Righteous Proselyte to Judaism

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    I believe I have discovered the underlying source of the immediate (although not the long term) hoopla over the issue of whether Messianic gentiles have the right to call themselves Jews. It is HERE in the FSG of the Messianic forum, which appear to have been BADLY WRITTEN:



    Any non-Messianic Moderator reading this is going to ASSUME that ALL Messianics claim to be Messianic JEWS, aka JEWS, because that is how the statement of faith reads! A Mod is going to look at this and say, "Hmmm, Okay, Messianics in general believe they have a Jewish identity, and as a mod I must enforce the rule that no one within this forum may argue against this statement of faith."

    The awful thing is, I would wager that MOST of those in the forum identifying as Messianic would say they do NOT have a Jewish identitity, that rather they are Messianic gentiles, and that this is SUPPOSED to refer to the right of Messianic JEWS to affirm their Jewish identity.

    Those of you active in the forum, please suggest to them that they clarify their FSG.
     
  18. Futuwwa

    Futuwwa Well-Known Member

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    How do Jews generally view Messianic Jews? To me, they seem more like Christians in denial.
     
  19. anatolian

    anatolian Senior Veteran

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    If jews believe that Jewness ethnically comes from mother , then why do you give the fatherless birth of Isa's/Jesus' as an evidence to reject his messiahship?
     
  20. Meshavrischika

    Meshavrischika for Thy greater honor and glory

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    I think they are Messianic, but not Jews.... even if they hold to the Jewish traditions. Jew is a people, Messianic is self explanatory. Either way, if they practice along the same lines, I'm fine with them being grouped together... but not the statement that they ARE Jews. :) (course I'm neither so what does my opinion matter)

    Replacement theology is so... well... unbiblical. How can you be grafted into something that is not valid? Just ignorant IMO.
     
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