Jewish Christian or Messianic Jew?

[Hank77]

That is a part of replacement theology which I reject out of hand.

No it is not a part of replacement theology. I also reject replacement theology. You need to find out what that theology really says.

First off - there is no proselization protocol in the OT Law. Intermarriage occurred with the children being full members of the Jewish people. Making a convert to Judaism was a later addition by the rabbis/Pharisees.

Why did God send Jonah to the Gentiles in Nineveh if it wasn't to lead them to repentance to the God of Israel, converting them to believers? Even though he was a reluctant missionary.
I'm pretty sure we could ferret out some other examples.

Secondly - the "commonwealth of Israel" concept was introduced by Paul in Ephesians 2. It is NOT an OT concept.

What do you think 'commonwealth' means? See below...

In Jewish TRADITION, a convert to Judaism was (and still is) considered a full natural born member of the tribe of Israel.

Well I'm glad it is their tradition seeing that is what God commanded.

Exo 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
Exo 12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Isa 56:3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
.......
Isa 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
Isa 56:7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.


Circumcision was a sign of member of the nation [commonwealth] of Israel.
It's amazing how scripture is opened up, as it was to me, when talking to Jewish people, reading Jewish writings, and studying what the Jews believe, and why they believe what they believe. Here is just one example....

 

[Dave-W]

Circumcision was a sign of member of the nation [commonwealth] of Israel

You are misusing “commonwealth.” Those who live in Canada, Australia and New Zeeland are NOT Englishmen and do not live in Great Brittan, but they are part of the British Commonwealth.

 

[Hank77]

You are misusing “commonwealth.” Those who live in Canada, Australia and New Zeeland are NOT Englishmen and do not live in Great Brittan, but they are part of the British Commonwealth.

commonwealth. A commonwealth refers to any group of people organized under a single government, particularly a republic. ... Nowadays, a commonwealth has come to mean any government in which all people involved have a say, or a loose formation of nations with a shared loyalty.

Israel was 12 nations under one common theocratic government, a commonwealth in the old sense and in the new.

 

[Dave-W]

Per Romans 11 the gentile believers are grafted in, not an integral part of the original tree. Like an orange or lemon branch grafted into a grapefruit tree.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Per Romans 11 the gentile believers are grafted in, not an integral part of the original tree. Like an orange or lemon branch grafted into a grapefruit tree.

Why did Paul say there is no difference between Jew and Gentile?

I would also bring to your attention that the New Covenant is not an ‘addition’ to the Old Covenant, but the new and better Covenant promised in the OT.

Include proof verses also.

 

[Dave-W]

Why did Paul say there is no difference between Jew and Gentile?

The same reason he said there was no difference between male and female. (But same sex marriage is off the table)

It was the fact that God sees us as equals before Him, but different in function.

 

[usexpat97]

What about Muslim Christians and Atheist Christians?

 

[Radagast]

It was the fact that God sees us as equals before Him, but different in function.

But Jews, as Jews, have no function in God's kingdom. We no longer have or need a Temple. We no longer need Jewish priests. Jewish prayers are no more special than Gentile ones. Jews are not some kind of elite group.

Functions in God's kingdom (evangelists, deacons, pastors, teachers) exist regardless of whether people are Jewish or Gentile. There is only one kind of Christian.

 

[HeLeadethMe]

Per Romans 11 the gentile believers are grafted in, not an integral part of the original tree. Like an orange or lemon branch grafted into a grapefruit tree.

Brother.....it is a spiritual tree....and Christ/Messiah is the root of it.....the Root and Branch. It is not the natural nation of Israel per se, but more like it came out of natural Israel.....otherwise no believers could have been restored or grafted into it all those two thousand years while Israel did not exist. But He is a Jew who is a Jew inwardly.....it is those who are Jews inwardly who belong to the commonwealth of Israel....a commonwealth because it includes all believers of all nations.

I believe from scripture that day is coming when the whole nation will be saved and reconciled to the Father in Christ, but not before Antichrist comes, and tribulation, and we once again endure the sons according to the flesh persecuting the sons of promise. But let our blood cry mercy and forgiveness for the Jews, not revenge, remembering that they are loved for the sake of the patriarchs....and God will hear our cries and prayers for their souls.

Rom 9:6-9

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. (having eyes to catch and see the parable in that)


Gal 4:21-31

Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

 

[Radagast]

Per Romans 11 the gentile believers are grafted in, not an integral part of the original tree. Like an orange or lemon branch grafted into a grapefruit tree.

You may not like it, but here we are. Complaints can be directed to God.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The same reason he said there was no difference between male and female. (But same sex marriage is off the table)

It was the fact that God sees us as equals before Him, but different in function.

Did you see the last part of my post?

 

[usexpat97]

We can dispel this "harsh reality" that anyone who is not a so-called "Jewish Christian" is a second-class citizen in God's kingdom. It is not a reality at all. Quoting the actual Scripture:


Romans 11:17-23 17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


"Jewish Christians" are grafted in, just like everyone else. And you are either Christian, or you are Jewish. Man cannot serve two masters.

 

[Dave-W]

"Jewish Christians" are grafted in, just like everyone else.

Close but not quite. Note the difference:

Romans 11

17 But if some of the branches were broken off,

24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?​

Natural branches were BROKEN off while us wild olive gentiles were CUT off. Broken branches can be restored while the cut branches have to be grafted.

And you are either Christian, or you are Jewish.

That is a false dichotomy. It was cooked up by both the anti-Jesus rabbis and the antisemetic early church leaders.

NEW COVENANT JUDAISM.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Close but not quite. Note the difference:

Romans 11

17 But if some of the branches were broken off,

24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?​

Natural branches were BROKEN off while us wild olive gentiles were CUT off. Broken branches can be restored while the cut branches have to be grafted.
.

Verse 24 is Israel. They are by nature the wild olive tree.

Gentiles are the ones grafted contrary to the nature of the wild olive tree.

Jesus coming back for the unsaved Jews when He comes back are the natural branches that can be regrafted back in if they accept Christ

 

[Dave-W]

Wrong.
Verse 24 is Israel.

Wow. I have absolutely NO IDEA where you got that from, given the context of the whole chapter.

The natural olive tree is Israel, aka the Jews. All Jews are born on that tree but get broken off due to unbelief.

All gentiles are born on the wild olive tree, and have to be cut from that tree and grafted into Israel (becoming Israel commonwealth) to be saved.

The overall context allows for no other understanding.

 

[Radagast]

And you are either Christian, or you are Jewish.

Indeed. You are either saved through Christ, or you are saved through keeping the law 100% perfectly.

 

[HeLeadethMe]

The same reason he said there was no difference between male and female. (But same sex marriage is off the table)

It was the fact that God sees us as equals before Him, but different in function.

We are what we are according to our flesh and circumstances, cultural, family, and gender etc, and yet the bible explicitly says now we know no man according to the flesh.

Where do you get from the scriptures that Jewish believers have a different function from other believers........how does their function differ from Gentile believers.....when the bible says it is a priesthood of ALL believers, and that spiritual gifts are given to ALL as the Holy Spirit apportions. So what does the word of God say is the function of Jewish believers as distinct from Gentiles? Isn't there just one new man, since we are all new creatures in Christ?

 

[HeLeadethMe]

Wow. I have absolutely NO IDEA where you got that from, given the context of the whole chapter.

The natural olive tree is Israel, aka the Jews. All Jews are born on that tree but get broken off due to unbelief.

All gentiles are born on the wild olive tree, and have to be cut from that tree and grafted into Israel (becoming Israel commonwealth) to be saved.

The overall context allows for no other understanding.

And sadly, they are considered apostate when they are broken off. I believe we are to understand the Tree is Christ the Messiah (harkening all the way back to the foundation of the world and Tree of Life).......it is not natural Israel per se. Remember He is the vine, we are the branches. Which came FROM Israel.....and so salvation is OF the Jews.....and God chose Israel to reveal Him and give birth to Him....but is not Israel itself because Israel itself is largely apostate, though they are certainly loved for the sake of their forefathers.

The Israel of God consists of all the OT saints who had faith in God and were faithful to Him (as well as Gentile believers grafted in).....but not the apostate and sinners of Israel. It only consists of the remnant who God kept for Himself. And this is like much of the apostate church today....Israel being our ensample.

Paul in Romans was correcting a wrong belief that Jews were utterly rejected and could not be saved......hence he was saying that they certainly can be saved, and do not be arrogant etc, because if the root is holy (Yeshua) the branches (believing Jews) are holy and if the firstfruit (Yeshua) is holy so is the whole lump (of those Jews who believe in Him). The Tree is Israel's tree, and was revealed when Yeshua came through Israel, but it is not natural Israel itself... the Tree is the Messiah/Christ, and all who belong to Him and are grafted into Him, whether natural or unnatural branches. The Israel of God is not all of natural Israel per se, but only those of Israel who belong to Christ, and those Gentiles who join the Israel of God through faith in Yeshua/Jesus.

Natural Israel in the bible was a living parable of heavenly Zion, New Jerusalem, the Israel of God, the Bride of Christ. Remember it is the church (Jew & Gentile) and gospel that is the mystery of God from the foundation of the world, before Israel and Jews ever existed. Abel belongs to it, Enoch, and Noah and all who were faithful to the Lord before Israel existed, as well as of course the Hebrew patriarchs who came afterward.

The lesson for us here is that He is building a spiritual house, a spiritual temple, Israel of God (spiritual Israel), heavenly Zion, New Jerusalem coming down from heaven (ie, spiritual) prepared as a Bride. So it is without a doubt a spiritual Tree, which is OF the Jews......and the flesh still profits nothing.

 

[HeLeadethMe]

And sadly, they are considered apostate when they are broken off. I believe we are to understand the Tree is Christ the Messiah (harkening all the way back to the foundation of the world and Tree of Life).......it is not natural Israel per se. Remember He is the vine, we are the branches. Which came FROM Israel.....and so salvation is OF the Jews.....and God chose Israel to reveal Him and give birth to Him....but is not Israel itself because Israel itself is largely apostate, though they are certainly loved for the sake of their forefathers.

The Israel of God consists of all the OT saints who had faith in God and were faithful to Him (as well as Gentile believers grafted in).....but not the apostate and sinners of Israel. It only consists of the remnant who God kept for Himself. And this is like much of the apostate church today....Israel being our ensample.

Paul in Romans was correcting a wrong belief that Jews were utterly rejected and could not be saved......hence he was saying that they certainly can be saved, and do not be arrogant etc, because if the root is holy (Yeshua) the branches (believing Jews) are holy and if the firstfruit (Yeshua) is holy so is the whole lump (of those Jews who believe in Him). The Tree is Israel's tree, and was revealed when Yeshua came through Israel, but it is not natural Israel itself... the Tree is the Messiah/Christ, and all who belong to Him and are grafted into Him, whether natural or unnatural branches. The Israel of God is not all of natural Israel per se, but only those of Israel who belong to Christ, and those Gentiles who join the Israel of God through faith in Yeshua/Jesus.

Natural Israel in the bible was a living parable of heavenly Zion, New Jerusalem, the Israel of God, the Bride of Christ. Remember it is the church (Jew & Gentile) and gospel that is the mystery of God from the foundation of the world, before Israel and Jews ever existed. Abel belongs to it, Enoch, and Noah and all who were faithful to the Lord before Israel existed, as well as of course the Hebrew patriarchs who came afterward.

The lesson for us here is that He is building a spiritual house, a spiritual temple, Israel of God (spiritual Israel), heavenly Zion, New Jerusalem coming down from heaven (ie, spiritual) prepared as a Bride. So it is without a doubt a spiritual Tree, which is OF the Jews......and the flesh still profits nothing.

It's very important to understand that we are not joined and grafted into the natural nation of Israel through Christ.......on the contrary we are not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers, and that certainly includes Jewish unbelievers.....and not make an alliance that is not of His SPIRIT, which is condemned in scripture. An alliance can only be of His Spirit when both parties are actually of His Spirit, ie, belong to Christ through faith in Him....we can only be allied/united together in Him.

 

[ARBITER01]

We are children of Abraham, so if we had to use a terminology, I guess it would be Jewish believer. There are sections in Acts that defines them that way.

The believing Jews, the Jews that believed not....