Jewish Christian or Messianic Jew?

[Alithis]

1: Jesus could not be flesh/fully human.
2: Jesus was flesh but not flesh from Mary.

Nope.
I said JESUS was Fully flesh fully human

Just like Adam.
Because like Adam ..no mother is required to make him fully flesh fully human.

2 jesus was borne into the world via a virgin .
And since Adam was FULLY man without a mother.
So Jesus required none of mary to be fully man.
[Staff edit].

Are you saying Adam was not fully Man ?
Ate you saying he had to have a mother to be fully man.

You see your throwing rcc and lutheran teachings in .
But you put no scripture in .
Because there is none you can insert in defence of mary.

I say JESUS is the word of God become flesh.
I say he is Of the holy Ghost.
I say and agree with Everything ...absolutly everything the scriptures say about him .
I defend Christ.

[Staff edit].

 

[Dave-W]

My point being..immaculate conception is hogwash. A myth made up by people eho desired to glorify mary outside of her plain human created station.

Actually the so-called "immaculate conception" was not Jesus being conceived, it was Mary being conceived by her mother. Go check with our Catholic brothers if you don't believe me.

 

[HeLeadethMe]

Does it matter if a born-again follower of Jesus Christ is a Jew? If so, why?

I am an ethnic Jew. I wasn't raised with the Torah. I received the gift of salvation from Jesus as an adult about 10 years ago.

For the past few months, I've been reading the Old Testament prophets. This, with the gift of understanding granted to me by the Holy Spirit, has helped me learn much more about God. Things I never knew about Him and His people. I can't explain it, all I can say is read Isaiah if you haven't, and don't stop there. I have a newfound awe for the Lord.

So yesterday I had an interesting experience. I discovered the page of a Messianic Jewish synagogue and did some reading. They maintain that Jewishness is important. They quoted Acts 21:18-25. Then I read verse 26, which I had never noticed before:

“On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. After greeting them, he related one by one the things that God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed. They are all zealous for the law, and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs. What then is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. Do therefore what we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also live in observance of the law. But as for the Gentiles who have believed, we have sent a letter with our judgment that they should abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality." Then Paul took the men, and the next day he purified himself along with them and went into the temple, giving notice when the days of purification would be fulfilled and the offering presented for each one of them.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭21:18-26‬ ‭ESV‬‬

That was interesting to me, because in verse 26 it says that Paul purified himself!

What is the meaning of this? Am I to be a Jew? What does this mean for me, and all others who are Jews? Should all Christians live as Jews? What about Paul's rebuke of Peter eating with Jews instead of Gentiles? What about the Torah, how can it be kept without relying on it for righteousness? How can we follow the Torah and live in faith?

Then I remembered something very important last night. On that blessed day I received Jesus Christ as my savior, I was in my new friend's apartment. I asked about something she had hanging on her wall. Was it a cross or crucifix? No. It was a Star of David. I asked about it and she told me that she is a Messianic Jew. I received Jesus Christ as my savior within minutes, and the rest is history. But that was how I met the Lord on that day.

Wasn't it because of her Jewishness that I came to faith in Jesus Christ that day? You can see why it seems to be significant for me.

I just want to make sure I'm obeying God and seeking Him first. I really don't know what any of this means. I don't want to be one of the many Jews who stumbles on the stumbling block. In fact, my friend warned me that many Messianic Jewish synagogues are too "into" the law, and end up venerating Abraham and Moses - that is, their forefathers and their heritage - over Jesus. I certainly don't want to fall into that trap. I'd just as soon disregard my Jewishness if I would risk losing Jesus. But if Jesus sees my Jewishness as important, then I want to respect Him and obey whatever He has commanded me to do. And what would that be?

God bless!

Great questions for today's climate…..and remember we can always ask God for wisdom and understanding in any area we lack, and He does not upbraid us for doing so.

There is no difference between Jew and Gentile according to scripture…..see Acts 15:9, Romans 3:22, Romans 10:12 and the context of those chapters.

Paul was often having to combat Judaizing….and I guess that’s why he is unpopular amongst some groups today who want us to return to bondage of the Law, even though the ordinances were nailed to the cross in the body of our Lord.

It’s not a sin in itself to keep certain aspects of the law….for many believing Jews it’s just a matter of culture and also expediency, to be as a Jew to win the Jews, and not to offend unnecessarily. This is why Paul practiced certain aspects of the Law at times, not because he was ascribing any necessity to doing so or that there is any virtue in it any longer in the eyes of God. No one is able to keep the Law perfectly and we know that to offend in even one point means we have broken the whole Law. This is the whole reason even the most rigid law-keeping Jews needed and still need the Messiah. Jesus is the only one, being sinless, who fulfilled the Law perfectly on all our behalf…so that through faith in Him, righteousness could be imputed to all…..because all are sinners. Where Paul says in Rom. 3:11 that faith does not make void the Law but rather establishes it (Rom. 3:11)…..is because receiving Yeshua by faith means we have acknowledged our shortfall and our need of Him, which became evident through the Law…..people become conscious of their sin through the Law….the Law being a tutor to lead them to the Christ. Also because the Law was a shadow of and pointing to Christ the Messiah all along anyhow…..it is a picture of His perfect sinless nature, which none of us have apart from Him.

I find God is the great equalizer……example who labours for the last hour of the day receives the same wages as those who bore the heat of the day, and the last will be first and the first will be last. Likewise He equalizes Jew and Gentile…..through the fall of the Jews salvation has come to the Gentiles, but take heed we Gentiles do not become arrogant against the Jews…..because salvation is of the Jews and to the Jew first then the Gentile. There is no need to distinguish between Jewish and Gentile believers, and I have found that in congregations where this is being made a big deal of, and where the Law is being kept, the wall of partition has been put back up between Jew and Gentile….

Eph 2:13-18

But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

The good news is that through Yeshua, we have been made one in Him....we are all one body, of one and the same Spirit.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Of couse but he lord JESUS was borne into the world Through that line. Not OF it.
And David says of him the lord said unto my Lord.. Sit at my rightchand until i make your enemies your footstool.
He called what in the flesh would be his offspring "lord" . that is never done.
But David by tbe holy Spirit knew that Jesus .b.being the salvation if God. Already existed "before" david.

So he us not OF the "blood" of David .
He is born of GOD.
-sinless
Never mingeld .

I disagree. Of the Line of David is not spiritual or whatever you are saying that is hard to understand, but specific lineage through a specific bloodline.

I’m not sure where you get your theology from.

The Bible contains lineages for a purpose. It is not God just taking up space

 

[ToBeLoved]

Nope.
I said JESUS was Fully flesh fully human

Just like Adam.
Because like Adam ..no mother is required to make him fully flesh fully human.

2 jesus was borne into the world via a virgin .
And since Adam was FULLY man without a mother.
So Jesus required none of mary to be fully man.
[Staff edit].

Are you saying Adam was not fully Man ?
Ate you saying he had to have a mother to be fully man.

You see your throwing rcc and lutheran teachings in .
But you put no scripture in .
Because there is none you can insert in defence of mary.

I say JESUS is the word of God become flesh.
I say he is Of the holy Ghost.
I say and agree with Everything ...absolutly everything the scriptures say about him .
I defend Christ.

[Staff edit].

Or the other way that you could look at it that I believe is more Biblical is that through Adam, having once been perfect and walking with God, through his sin, sin and separation from God was the default status for all of mankind.

Jesus being the second Adam, restores us back to right relationship with God (that Adam lost), that Christ restored.

Another point is that Jesus Himself calls Mary His mother. So I’m not sure what all that Jesus doesn’t have a mother thing is all about.

I think your putting a lot of stock in Adam not having a mother. Why would he. Than the same thing would need to occur for that mother and so on.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Great questions for today's climate…..and remember we can always ask God for wisdom and understanding in any area we lack, and He does not upbraid us for doing so.

There is no difference between Jew and Gentile according to scripture…..see Acts 15:9, Romans 3:22, Romans 10:12 and the context of those chapters.

Paul was often having to combat Judaizing….and I guess that’s why he is unpopular amongst some groups today who want us to return to bondage of the Law, even though the ordinances were nailed to the cross in the body of our Lord.

It’s not a sin in itself to keep certain aspects of the law….for many believing Jews it’s just a matter of culture and also expediency, to be as a Jew to win the Jews, and not to offend unnecessarily. This is why Paul practiced certain aspects of the Law at times, not because he was ascribing any necessity to doing so or that there is any virtue in it any longer in the eyes of God. No one is able to keep the Law perfectly and we know that to offend in even one point means we have broken the whole Law. This is the whole reason even the most rigid law-keeping Jews needed and still need the Messiah. Jesus is the only one, being sinless, who fulfilled the Law perfectly on all our behalf…so that through faith in Him, righteousness could be imputed to all…..because all are sinners. Where Paul says in Rom. 3:11 that faith does not make void the Law but rather establishes it (Rom. 3:11)…..is because receiving Yeshua by faith means we have acknowledged our shortfall and our need of Him, which became evident through the Law…..people become conscious of their sin through the Law….the Law being a tutor to lead them to the Christ. Also because the Law was a shadow of and pointing to Christ the Messiah all along anyhow…..it is a picture of His perfect sinless nature, which none of us have apart from Him.

I find God is the great equalizer……example who labours for the last hour of the day receives the same wages as those who bore the heat of the day, and the last will be first and the first will be last. Likewise He equalizes Jew and Gentile…..through the fall of the Jews salvation has come to the Gentiles, but take heed we Gentiles do not become arrogant against the Jews…..because salvation is of the Jews and to the Jew first then the Gentile. There is no need to distinguish between Jewish and Gentile believers, and I have found that in congregations where this is being made a big deal of, and where the Law is being kept, the wall of partition has been put back up between Jew and Gentile….

Eph 2:13-18

But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

The good news is that through Yeshua, we have been made one in Him....we are all one body, of one and the same Spirit.

Nice post.

 

[DennisTate]

Does it matter if a born-again follower of Jesus Christ is a Jew? If so, why?

I am an ethnic Jew. I wasn't raised with the Torah. I received the gift of salvation from Jesus as an adult about 10 years ago.

For the past few months, I've been reading the Old Testament prophets. This, with the gift of understanding granted to me by the Holy Spirit, has helped me learn much more about God. Things I never knew about Him and His people. I can't explain it, all I can say is read Isaiah if you haven't, and don't stop there. I have a newfound awe for the Lord.

So yesterday I had an interesting experience. I discovered the page of a Messianic Jewish synagogue and did some reading. They maintain that Jewishness is important. They quoted Acts 21:18-25. Then I read verse 26, which I had never noticed before:

“On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. After greeting them, he related one by one the things that God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed. They are all zealous for the law, and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs. What then is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. Do therefore what we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also live in observance of the law. But as for the Gentiles who have believed, we have sent a letter with our judgment that they should abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality." Then Paul took the men, and the next day he purified himself along with them and went into the temple, giving notice when the days of purification would be fulfilled and the offering presented for each one of them.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭21:18-26‬ ‭ESV‬‬

That was interesting to me, because in verse 26 it says that Paul purified himself!

What is the meaning of this? Am I to be a Jew? What does this mean for me, and all others who are Jews? Should all Christians live as Jews? What about Paul's rebuke of Peter eating with Jews instead of Gentiles? What about the Torah, how can it be kept without relying on it for righteousness? How can we follow the Torah and live in faith?

Then I remembered something very important last night. On that blessed day I received Jesus Christ as my savior, I was in my new friend's apartment. I asked about something she had hanging on her wall. Was it a cross or crucifix? No. It was a Star of David. I asked about it and she told me that she is a Messianic Jew. I received Jesus Christ as my savior within minutes, and the rest is history. But that was how I met the Lord on that day.

Wasn't it because of her Jewishness that I came to faith in Jesus Christ that day? You can see why it seems to be significant for me.

I just want to make sure I'm obeying God and seeking Him first. I really don't know what any of this means. I don't want to be one of the many Jews who stumbles on the stumbling block. In fact, my friend warned me that many Messianic Jewish synagogues are too "into" the law, and end up venerating Abraham and Moses - that is, their forefathers and their heritage - over Jesus. I certainly don't want to fall into that trap. I'd just as soon disregard my Jewishness if I would risk losing Jesus. But if Jesus sees my Jewishness as important, then I want to respect Him and obey whatever He has commanded me to do. And what would that be?

God bless!

It may somewhat help you to read how different the relationship between the first century Messianic Jewish community with the Rabbinic Jewish community and the Levites may have been than is commonly understood:

"The Sacrificial System Will Continue

One of the most perplexing ideas to students of Scripture is the idea that God intends that the annual feasts, along with animal sacrifice, will continue into the Millennium. Many Christians who have studied the prophetic portions of Zechariah 14, Isaiah 66, and Ezekiel 40 - 48, which clearly describe these Millennial worship ordinations, are confused by the idea. They ask, "Didn't the sacrifice of Christ eliminate animal sacrifices forever?"

............"Only the complete sacrifice of Jesus could ever totally atone for our sins. However, God clearly demanded the sacrifices from Adam to Christ. Those sacrifices were acts of obedience to the direct command of God, as well as acknowledgements of one's own personal sinfulness and need for God's forgiveness. Animal sacrifices covered the sins of the people temporarily until the prophesied Messiah would come and offer Himself once and for all as the necessary atonement for sin. If animal sacrifice can never atone for sin, why would God allow Israel to resume such sacrifice in the Third Temple, prior to Armageddon, and then demand that Israel continue such sacrifice in the Millennium? There are two reasons why I believe this is true."

First, the early Jewish - Christian Church continued to offer sacrifices in the first century.".......



.......Second, New Testament writers used the legal sacrificial system to illustrate very important points concerning Christ's sacrifice on the Cross.......

..... These examples of the way early Jewish believers used God's law to teach great love when He sacrificed His only Son on the cross will be repeated during the Millennium." (Grant R. Jeffrey, Messiah, War in the Middle East and the Road to Armageddon, page 317, 318 and 319)

The annual High Holy Sabbaths of Judaism are powerful appointed times to meet with the G-d of Abraham. I've been fasting on Yom Kippur since I was a teenager and I am 59 now.

 

[Josephus]

Knowing Torah is to know the DNA of Jesus. A mitzvah is a connection with G-d. A Jew has an obligation to study one in order to do the other. Your neshama, your Jewish soul, is what drives you to connect with G-d as He has made you. Go connect.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Of couse but he lord JESUS was borne into the world Through that line. Not OF it.
And David says of him the lord said unto my Lord.. Sit at my rightchand until i make your enemies your footstool.
He called what in the flesh would be his offspring "lord" . that is never done.
But David by tbe holy Spirit knew that Jesus .b.being the salvation if God. Already existed "before" david.

So he us not OF the "blood" of David .
He is born of GOD.
-sinless
Never mingeld .

Maybe you are confused as to what "Lineage" means.or "line of David"

Makes for a good Bible study.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Knowing Torah is to know the DNA of Jesus. A mitzvah is a connection with G-d. A Jew has an obligation to study one in order to do the other. Your neshama, your Jewish soul, is what drives you to connect with G-d as He has made you. Go connect.

Hi @Josephus

Long time, no see. Hope you are doing well.

 

[Alithis]

Actually the so-called "immaculate conception" was not Jesus being conceived, it was Mary being conceived by her mother. Go check with our Catholic brothers if you don't believe me.

Which still remains unscriptural hogwash.

Noted that people are offended when mary is brought back down to correct position.
May the lord Jesus Alone be eternally praised.let none other usurp .

 

[Hank77]

A better question is why did HE send the gospel to the gentiles? Romans 11:11 answers that question. It is the ONLY reason given in scripture for the gospel to go to the gentiles.

So you think that the Gentiles were only saved so the Jews would be saved.
The Jews were suppose to be sharing their faith in God with the stranger so that the Gentile too would be saved, that's OT. They were suppose to be a light to the world. But Jesus said this about them....
Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

 

[Hank77]

That is one way of translating it. Irrevocable is probably better for current English usage.

But it can also be taken that God would not repent from giving those gifts and callings.

The result is the same: STILL IN EFFECT.

True, and because there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ all of those promises are for all those in Christ, all of God's people.
Let me ask you this.
In the OT under the Law, was a converted, circumcised proselyte a full and equal member of the nation of Israel? Jew and Gentile equal members in the commonwealth of Israel?

 

[Alithis]

Knowing Torah is to know the DNA of Jesus. A mitzvah is a connection with G-d. A Jew has an obligation to study one in order to do the other. Your neshama, your Jewish soul, is what drives you to connect with G-d as He has made you. Go connect.

Whose the forum MJ here?? Is this post mj or hebrew roots movement.. Or sacred namers ?
Iv learned they are not the same thing ..

 

[Dave-W]

So you think that the Gentiles were only saved so the Jews would be saved.

That is NOT what I said.
I said that is the only reason LISTED IN SCRIPTURE for the gospel going to the gentiles.

 

[Dave-W]

True, and because there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ all of those promises are for all those in Christ, all of God's people.

That is a part of replacement theology which I reject out of hand.

Let me ask you this.
In the OT under the Law, was a converted, circumcised proselyte a full and equal member of the nation of Israel? Jew and Gentile equal members in the commonwealth of Israel?

First off - there is no proselization protocol in the OT Law. Intermarriage occurred with the children being full members of the Jewish people. Making a convert to Judaism was a later addition by the rabbis/Pharisees.

Secondly - the "commonwealth of Israel" concept was introduced by Paul in Ephesians 2. It is NOT an OT concept.

In Jewish TRADITION, a convert to Judaism was (and still is) considered a full natural born member of the tribe of Israel.

 

[Alithis]

Maybe you are confused as to what "Lineage" means.or "line of David"

Makes for a good Bible study.

Elsewhere you asked where i get my doctrine from.
1# the lord JESUS ...in reference to where he points out about david saying the lord said unto my lord... David the elder acknowledge the offspring to be his lord. Something NEVER ever done. But david is speaking by the holy spirit who knows Jesus is not the flesh and blood son of david .
Also romans 1.. Where its listed that he was xalled son of david but only afyer the flesh. Meaning those that do not understand the truth do not understand that Jesus was never borne forth from the flesh.

You also ask why i make a big deal of it.
It IS because an entire religion is led into full demonic idolatry based soley upon the non scriptural man added teaching that mary is anything more then a surrogate mother who had a baby put in her womb by the power of the Holy Spirit of the most high God.
And there is NOTHING in scripture to say she us sinless or divine..or anything they claim of her. Nothing whatsoever.
Hence the Only MOTIVE to teach that which the scripture does NOT say. Is to elevate mary .
And deny JESUS the position of Only saviour
Only lord
Only mediator etc .
It is a Huge issue . so huge that 6 and 700 yrs sgo and earlier they were murdering anyone who would not accept thier mary veneration .
Leading literal millions by coercion into idol worship ..is no small trivial thing.

 

[HeLeadethMe]

Knowing Torah is to know the DNA of Jesus. A mitzvah is a connection with G-d. A Jew has an obligation to study one in order to do the other. Your neshama, your Jewish soul, is what drives you to connect with G-d as He has made you. Go connect.

All believers whether Jew or Gentile need to read and know the Torah as well as all of scripture. What enables us to connect with God is the Spirit of Christ/Messiah when He came to dwell in the believer by faith, Jewish or Gentile. Apart from Him (His Spirit) we can do nothing. And that is why unbelieving Jews are not connected/reconciled to God, sadly.

Also, there are only lost souls and redeemed souls....an unbelieving Jewish soul is just as lost and perishing as an unbelieving Gentile soul. All need to come to faith in Yeshua and receive of His Spirit, whether Jew or Gentile in order to be saved and reconciled to the Father....no man comes to the Father but by me, Yeshuah said.....remember this very same gospel is even to the Jew first, then the Gentile.

The only difference between Jew and Gentile mentioned in scripture is that the Jews have an advantage, just as Paul wrote.....to them belong the oracles of God. One might even argue that means Jews have less of an excuse if they reject the Messiah, (from God's point of view, not that I am judging anyone).

Romans 3:1-2

What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

 

[Scrutinizer]

"We're all one in Christ Jesus"

Why complicate this wonderful simplicity?
We're all one in the body of Christ.

 

[HeLeadethMe]

Eph 2:14-16

For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby

2Co 5:16-17

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Rom 8:5

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Some good old-fashioned Jewish sarcasm from Paul here :

2Co 11:18-22

Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also.

For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.

For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.

I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also.

Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.

Yeshua said to the Jews that “no man comes to the Father except by me”….it is this very same gospel that is to the Jew first….only one and the same gospel to Jew and Gentile. So please let me know your thoughts on these things, dear Healing with Jesus. Are we one in Yeshua/Christ? Jew and Gentile siblings in Him? I say yes, and hope you agree.

Eph 4:3-6

Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


Yeshua has only one body, one church/ekklesia/commonwealth/Israel of God…..and it even has only one name….HIS. THE church at Jerusalem, or THE church at Ephesus, or THE church at Toronto, or THE church at New York. Not Baptist, or Pentecostal or Brethren, or Messianic, or Presbyterian….see how divisive all that is…..but He has only one church by one name, who is the only way to the Father and we are united in Him only by His Spirit which we received when we were born again.