Jew versus Jew

[Open Heart]

It is alarming to me that Israeli Jews are dissing Diaspora Jews. It causes a rift in our people that only weakens B'nei Yisrael, and makes us vulnerable to attack.

When I say Israeli Jews, I'm referring mostly to the Orthodox Rabbinate, although the politicians are basically falling behind them.

In the last couple weeks, the Knesset has backed off its plans to set up a similar prayer area for liberal Jews at the Kotel (meaning it would accomodate Diaspora Jews visiting in Israel).

The Knesset also passed a bill giving entire authority to the ultra-Orthodox Rabbinate to determine Jewish status and conversions and outlawing private conversions. This has been the source of major problems with the Diaspora because the Rabbinate has not recognized Diaspora Jews and conversions, which means Jewish marriages cannot be performed, nor Jewish burials conducted.

There is also the scandal of the Blacklist of 160 Diaspora Rabbis. We are talking about Orthodox Rabbis -- Reform and Conservative have been rejected for a long time. It is not clear whether the list is official, or exhaustive. There is no transparency of operations in the Rabbinate. There is no understanding of who is accepted and who is not, and certainly no criteria for how to be accepted, or any way to appeal. We know that the Rabbinate has become increasingly strict, but it they do seem rather random.

For its part, Diaspora Jews are up in arms about these latest incidents. Many are urging that we no longer send our support to Israel until things change. If that happens then you have a downright awful civil war going on.

How awful is this state of affairs!

 

[ChavaK]

It is alarming to me that Israeli Jews are dissing Diaspora Jews. It causes a rift in our people that only weakens B'nei Yisrael, and makes us vulnerable to attack.

I don't think they are "dissing" us. They live there, we don't. They hold down the front line, we don't. I don't have a problem with them doing what is best for Israel and Judaism.

In the last couple weeks, the Knesset has backed off its plans to set up a similar prayer area for liberal Jews at the Kotel (meaning it would accomodate Diaspora Jews visiting in Israel).

IIRC, there is already an area set aside at the Southern Wall excavation area for liberal women.
Most people that visit Israel are Christians, so there will be a large amount of them at the wall at any given time. I don't think they have a problem respecting the traditional separating of the sexes there.
There are more Israel Orthodox Jews (27%) than Reform and Conservative (7.1%) combined. Most Israelis I've met that are not "religious" lean towards Orthodox oversight. The latest figures I could find are from 2003, but at that time those who made aliyah are broken down to : 65% Orthodox, 15% Conservative, 5% Reform. Ergo it makes sense to leave the wall as is, with the separate area on the south side.

The Knesset also passed a bill giving entire authority to the ultra-Orthodox Rabbinate to determine Jewish status and conversions and outlawing private conversions. This has been the source of major problems with the Diaspora because the Rabbinate has not recognized Diaspora Jews and conversions, which means Jewish marriages cannot be performed, nor Jewish burials conducted.

I don't have a problem with this because only halachic (Orthodox) conversions are valid in my view.
There is a recognized "list" of rabbis and organizations in the world that offer conversions that are recognized by Israel. The bigger problem is converting in Israel. Because the Orthodox make up the largest group of religious Jews in Israel, it would make sense it's rules should be followed. People who have non-halachic conversions outside of Israel can still make aliyah, but they aren't going to be recognized as Jews once they get there. A halachic conversion removes any doubt about the Jewish status of the convert. And I doubt we are talking about a large group of people....I have no numbers, but I suspect that the number of people that convert outside Israel and then make aliyah is pretty small.

There is also the scandal of the Blacklist of 160 Diaspora Rabbis. We are talking about Orthodox Rabbis -- Reform and Conservative have been rejected for a long time. It is not clear whether the list is official, or exhaustive. There is no transparency of operations in the Rabbinate. There is no understanding of who is accepted and who is not, and certainly no criteria for how to be accepted, or any way to appeal. We know that the Rabbinate has become increasingly strict, but it they do seem rather random.

Back in the old days, there was no uniform oversight of conversions. Rabbis could and did demand different things. By unifying things, it actually makes it much easier on converts. There is a list of acceptable rabbis/organizations whose conversions are fully recognized in Israel. It's not difficult to find a group to convert through.

For its part, Diaspora Jews are up in arms about these latest incidents. Many are urging that we no longer send our support to Israel until things change. If that happens then you have a downright awful civil war going on.

I never hear any discussion of any of these things, but I am involved in an Orthodox community. But again, I think those that live in Israel have the right to set the rules. If I live in the galus, and I'm upset, the best thing for me to do is make aliyah. Otherwise I don't see why I have a right to demand things of those in Israel.

How awful is this state of affairs!

I don't see it that way.

 

[Open Heart]

There is a recognized "list" of rabbis and organizations in the world that offer conversions that are recognized by Israel. The bigger problem is converting in Israel. Because the Orthodox make up the largest group of religious Jews in Israel, it would make sense it's rules should be followed. People who have non-halachic conversions outside of Israel can still make aliyah, but they aren't going to be recognized as Jews once they get there. A halachic conversion removes any doubt about the Jewish status of the convert. And I doubt we are talking about a large group of people....I have no numbers, but I suspect that the number of people that convert outside Israel and then make aliyah is pretty small.

The list of Rabbis who can make recognized halachic conversions seems to be fluid. There is no consensus on what qualifications a Rabbi needs in order to get on the list.

There is a problem in Israel with the Rabbinate approving conversions and then later rescinding them -- in other words, a Jew who sins is now no longer a Jew, rather than simply a sinful Jew.

When I was going through the conversion process, it was a REALLY big deal to find a Rabbi whose conversions would be recognized by the Rabbinate, and even then we were told there was always a chance that our conversion would not be recognized. It gave us a great sense of insecurity, and quite frankly, made us angry.

 

[ChavaK]

The list of rabbis who can make halachic conversions seems to be fluid. There is no consensus on what qualifications a Rabbi needs in order to get on the list

All of the rabbis on the list are Orthodox, so that is one qualification.
The best option is to go through the RCA; any problems should be eliminated.

There is a problem in Israek with the Rabbinate approving conversions and then later rescinding them-in other words, a Jew who sins is now no longer a Jew, rather than simply a sinful Jew

I don't think a "sinful" Jew is the issue, the issue is the rabbi doing the conversion. My understanding is conversions are rejected on that, rather than the actions of the convert. It can also be understood that anyone who converts and then does not follow what they promised-observing the mitzvot-had a false conversion to start with. There have been cases of that occurring.

When I was going through the conversion process, it was a REALLY big deal to find a Rabbi whose conversions would be recognized by the Rabbinate, and even then we were told there was always a chance that our conversion would not be recognized. It gave us a great sense of insecurity, and quite frankly, made us angry.

I don't think any Conservative rabbi is going to be recognized in Israel, and thus any Conservative conversion won't be valid in Israel. If one is not planning to make aliyah, it is something one has to live with, just as the conversion is not valid in the rest of the world in Orthodoxy. If one isn't involved in that community, other than the future status of one's children, people should not let it bother them. If the rabbi makes it known up front, and the convert understands, there is no need for anger.
Even Orthodox converts need to be made aware that they may not always be accepted....good luck converting and being accepted by Syrian communities. Or by some Ultra Orthodox groups, or by secular Jews who think you can only be a Jew if you are born one.
I guess that is just a long winded way of saying, be aware and be accepting. Concern yourself with your group, and don't worry what the rest say or do.

 

[Open Heart]

I don't think a "sinful" Jew is the issue, the issue is the rabbi doing the conversion.

I'm talking about proselytes who have gone through the Rabbinate for an Orthodox conversion in Israel, and then maybe five years later, they start to slip up a bit on something or other. The Rabbinate rescinds their conversion. I think that's scandalous. Their conversion was sincere, as illustrated by five years of outstanding Orthodoxy. You can't unJew a Jew.

Basically, I think we have enough evidence to say that the present Rabbinate is actually hostile to converts. It doesn't want them, excludes as many as they possibly can for the most frivolous of reasons, and then gets rid of those who are already converts if possible, when that is not halakhic.

I think it was Tosofos who explained that harrassing converts brings God's punishment upon all of Israel.

 

[ChavaK]

I'm talking about proselytes who have gone through the Rabbinate for an Orthodox conversion in Israel, and then maybe five years later, they start to slip up a bit on something or other. The Rabbinate rescinds their conversion. I think that's scandalous. Their conversion was sincere, as illustrated by five years of outstanding Orthodoxy. You can't unJew a Jew.

I haven't read anything about that, everything I have read involves the rabbinate against a rabbi(s)
and then either not recognizing their conversions, or trying to rescind the conversions after the fact. It has involved tens of thousands of people, but fortunately most of it has been beaten back.

Basically, I think we have enough evidence to say that the present Rabbinate is actually hostile to converts. It doesn't want them, excludes as many as they possibly can for the most frivolous of reasons, and then gets rid of those who are already converts if possible, when that is not halakhic.

I don't know if it is hostility, or just political posturing to keep/have control over the conversion process.