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The Liturgist

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That would be Kelly Duncan, the only surviving flight attendant on Air Florida Flight 90, which in 1982 crashed into the freezing Potomac due to incredible incompetence from the pilots (who failed to de-ice their aircraft properly: rather than calling for the de-icing truck, which is the correct procedure, because they were behind schedule they decided to pull their 737-200 right up behind a DC-9 aircraft (that type has tail mounted engines mounted high on the fuselage, above the 737 wing), the idea being the jetblast would blow the snow off the wings, but of course, it did not, but instead solidified the snow into ice, which ruined the aerodynamics, preventing the aircraft from attaining a positive rate of climb and instead causing it to plunge into the river, killing 79 out of 84 souls on board. The heroic passenger who at the cost of his own life saved Flight Attendant Kelly Duncan before sadly drowning was Arland D. Williams Jr.

Air Florida went out of business in 1984 due to a combination of the crash and mismanagement. Ed Acker, the former CEO, became president of Pan Am in 1982 and retired in 1988, by which time the once great airline was dying. It would go out of business in 1991 after having sold its Pacific routes to United and later its coveted European network including its precious slots at London Heathrow (Pan Am and TWA, the leading US airlines, both had slots at Heathrow, and both sold them as their fortunes declined to United and American, with American later purchasing TWA in 2001; later these restrictions were lifted, so Delta, the other surviving US network airline, also serves Heathrow).
 
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Fervent

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The question to me seems mostly a matter of what exists fundamentally. Both inside and outside of the church it has been my experience that many hold to an idea that physical existence is primary, rather than the physical supervening over the Spiritual. Every sickness, every weakness, is ultimately a manifestation of spiritual disease. Not simply that these things have a spiritual aspect but that the root of the issue is spiritual. That is not to deny the reality of the physical and mental expressions, mental illness for example is both physical and mental in addition to being spiritual. Because spirit is not sensual it often is taken to be immaterial woo, but since all existence depends on God first and foremost and God is Spirit healing the spiritual issues is the first step to healing the physical and mental, which means the solution is the preaching of the gospel as it is by Christ's blood that our spirits are healed.
 
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Carl Emerson

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OK I have been asked to produce hospital reports on a recent case of the healing of cancer which completely disappeared within days after prayer.

Here are the files.

The first two refer to the pre. op biopsy confirming cancer in the right thyroid. This was before prayer.
https://www.christianforums.com/dat.../331580_4d4d059b61cc08ed955fdb6d0e23bcaf.jpeg
https://www.christianforums.com/dat.../331581_67f14549f9731932b22be865a1c6e491.jpeg

The third is a post op biopsy - no cancer.
https://www.christianforums.com/dat.../331582_977072df6612105fac0384f572bd3ef8.jpeg

The last one is a comment from the surgeon who was embarrassed that they operated unnecessarily.
https://www.christianforums.com/dat...8/331583_29709b80437707d5e5b43353f55e743f.JPG

The surgeon said he had never seen such a thing in 2000 operations.

At the request of our dear friend who was healed I have blacked out her name and the names of the medics. She was very thankful for her care and doesn't want them hassled.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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The pre-op biopsy did not show cancer at all. It showed the anomaly as benign, not cancerous.
 
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Carl Emerson

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The pre-op biopsy did not show cancer at all. It showed the anomaly as benign, not cancerous.

Have another look Oscarr - there were two files one for the left and one for the right.

One was benign, the other was malignant.

They wouldn't apologise for operating if there was no cancer.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Have another look Oscarr - there were two files one for the left and one for the right.

One was benign, the other was malignant.

They wouldn't apologise for operating if there was no cancer.
Oh yes. I missed the second page. You are right. The cancer was there in the pre-op biopsy, and not there afterward. There is no alternative but to believe that the cancer disappeared as the result of prayer.

These healings are a fulfilment of Philippians 4:6-7.

The other two testimonies are remarkable, and really do show permanent healing of definite medical conditions, backed up by clinical confirmation.

I think that is the three I asked for, and shows that God does answer prayer for healing. It is interesting that the gastric and blindness ones were not treatable by ordinary medicine, but were healed as the result of prayer.

I think that these examples are totally different from the claims of the Word-Faith healing preachers.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Guojing

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Actually, that Philippians passage promised the peace of God, not healing. Even if the cancer remains after you made your request to God, you can still have peace in your heart, so that promise is not dependent on whether or not healing took place.

This healing is more like Philippians 2:25-29

25 Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants.

26 For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick.

27 For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.

28 I sent him therefore the more carefully, that, when ye see him again, ye may rejoice, and that I may be the less sorrowful.

29 Receive him therefore in the Lord with all gladness; and hold such in reputation:

30 Because for the work of Christ he was nigh unto death, not regarding his life, to supply your lack of service toward me.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Granted. The point I was making is that we request healing from the Lord, rather than claim it and tell people that they are healed when they are not.
 
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Guojing

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Granted. The point I was making is that we request healing from the Lord, rather than claim it and tell people that they are healed when they are not.

The most interesting aspect I felt about the KJV translation is the word "carefully" in vs 28, which indicates that even though Epaphroditus did not die, he might not have recovered fully from whatever illness he was facing. That was why Paul had to send him "carefully".

Similarly, in the case of cancer, when you see remission of cancer after much prayer, but after a year or so, if the cancer comes back, it is also important not to lose faith in God. =)
 
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Disciple_mike

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i do have affiliation with this movement -it is not the be all and end all of movements but it is closer to the book of acts then anything i have ever come across . I have met Torben a few times . he's a wonderful guy ,, but just a man as any other who dares to trust Gods word as true and so act on it . he has been instrumental in equipping thousands of others now to do likewise . it is encouraging to see a person who is in agreement with the lord Jesus on these matters . i noticed the first replies to this that came rolling in all highlighted the truth of your post by their comments opposing the power of the lord Jesus ( so many have a form of Godliness but deny the power thereof) prayer request ..my wife fell and broke her Femur and i have been attacked with chest pains. We fully believe the lord is our healer and deliverer .
 
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wendykvw

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God bless you for serving God and others. I do believe the spiritual gifts are still in operation. I have experienced these gifts, and thank God for allowing me to serve Him.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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Would it stretch your theology ???
Hello Carl.
I like most of what you post and see that you offer help to many people.
I am a cessationist, based on the bible.
I have several friends who claim all manner of manifestations.
I know the teaching they offered and could teach it, but i do not think it is biblical.
I have learned to trust the word of God, and act on it.
people claim God told them, this or that.
I am not told to believe anecdotal stories.
There are billions of people on the planet, but if I read your post correctly, you say God told you to leave a dinner party immediately, jump on a plane and fly half way around the world, wait 3 days in a motel, strangers were giving you money, then several near death healings took place???
Carl....i cannot understand this. He could have healed these people in answer to prayer.
I know God uses means, but This just does not make sense to me.
My wife had a mass on her side below her ribs years ago. We prayed for it to be healed for a few days, it remained. We went to a specialist costing several hundred dollars to walk in there.
The lump which was there when we left the house, was gone. The specialist called me into a different room,and asked me to describe the lump. It was gone. Iwas thankful but explained what had happened, and that evidently God had answered our prayer, and perhaps we were to confess that openly to this Doctor....[He still charged us}lol.
God can heal, yes.
God can prevent a person from getting sick or cancer to begin with.
God can allow believers to go through serious illness in order to comfort others, 2cor1
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.

6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.

7 And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation.

i am not certain of what happened to you, I just have trouble with such claims.
On a different board I was removed because one of the mods from Australia said his car ran out of petrol, completely empty. Claims his mother in law prayed in tongues, and the car drove like 160 miles with no gas....i do not think that happened.

I stay in the realm of revealed truth. There were signs of the Apostles, but that was foundational.
2cor12

12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

It does not say...signs of all Christians.
In mk 16 in that disputed text, it says these signs would follow"them that believed"
What they believed was the Apostolic preaching, signs followed.

I will look forward to your posts that are word centered. They do help several people.
I can only speak what i know Carl.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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So, where in the New Testament do Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, James, the Apostles to the Hebrews, or Jude teach that that prophecy, tongues, and healing are temporary and only meant to last less than 30 years after the Day of Pentecost?
 
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Carl Emerson

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if I read your post correctly, you say God told you to leave a dinner party immediately, jump on a plane and fly half way around the world, wait 3 days in a motel, strangers were giving you money, then several near death healings took place???

Really - Maybe you could reread my posts !!!

I am staggered to read such an inaccurate quote...

Who said that ???

Apart from that, thanks for your may kind words.

I am puzzled though - Do you doubt that I went to Jerusalem? Should I post a copy of my passport entries? What would convince you? I posted a photo of the house I stayed in in Gilo. I am still in contact with the lady I prayed for, having a heart attack, nearly 40 years ago. I posted hospital records of a recent healing from cancer - did that not happen either ???

Would it help if you spoke to the lady who had cancer direct ???

Would you dismiss her testimony as well ?

Is the church just a museum of a faith that once was - has God finished doing stuff ???

That is not the Christianity I know and believe me I have been involved with science all my life and am as demanding of evidence as anyone.

Yesterday I got my hair cut and the hairdresser after talking with me asked for prayer for his bowel cancer. He closed the shop so we could pray. It turned out he was a youth pastor way back who had lost his way. I will support him on his journey back to Jesus. Is this not happening either ???

Some are called to continue the witness.

Funny how folks will accept this phenomena on the mission field without question but back home ??? No way !!! Jesus had the same issue.

Thanks for you kind reply, hopefully we can be more understanding of each other.
 
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