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Jesus will return in chariots??? HAY???

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by BULWARK, Apr 23, 2002.

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  1. BULWARK

    BULWARK Member

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    I recall Elijah being taken into the heavens in a chariot.

    I recall Jesus rising up into the sky and out of sight, into the outer atmosphere.

    I wondered what this could imply.

    Then I saw this verse in Isaiah.

    Isaiah 66
    14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies.
    15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
    16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.


    So, what are these chariots that belong to the lord of hosts (armies).

    It appears as though it is an alien invasion with Jesus at the head and that he will blaze fire down on the earth and plead with all flesh.

    There are other predictions that say, the kings of the earth will go to war with Jesus and his angels as they try to destroy our home.

    They will lose and Jesus will save whom he will and he will destroy the rest and plead with all flesh.

    Now, I now that everyone will think I am mad, but I genuinely see it this way.

    Is there another explanation to these chariots that come from the heavens (sky) and take people like Elijah (who was alive and flesh) into the heavens?

    Could someone tell me how I am wrong because I am not allowed to believe such things am I????

    I love Jesus, he has changed my life, but these things make me concerned about the fact that my Lord will return and kill and murder all the women and children on the earth and take it for them.

    That is starting to really concern me.

    Should we just sit back and invite this slaughter of humanity as Christians or should we be fighting for the salvation of our earth before the return of the gods were we will most likely become an occupied world by higher being with vastly better technology.

    Like say:

    raising someone from the dead, or artificial insemination or being able to be beamed up from the earth, in the flesh, in front of a crowed, while two other beings stood by and said, why are you surprised at his assention, he will descend in the same manner (after we destroy everything you humans hold dear).


    I am a Christian, but I am starting to feel as though we have all been set up so we wont stop the future invasion of OUR planet.

    Are we betraying humanity because we have been ignorantly deceived by aliens (angels from the heavens.)?

    This is honestly not a stab at Christianity.

    This is a big reason that my Christianity is in crisis.

    Now matter what I read in scripture, it keeps talking on this level to me.

    I wonder if it is god revealing the truth to me as it was told to me in 3 different prophesies from pastors, that god would lead me a different way and I would stand against religions.

    Is this what he ment or am I being deceived every time I try to read the bible, and how, considering I pray and do it all in the name of Jesus. I pray against deception but this is what I keep getting every single time I open the bible now.

    Is god reviling any of this stuff to anyone else or am I being deceived.
     
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  2. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

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    jeopardy, brother..

    It wasn't into the outer atmosphere it was to be seated at the right hand of God.

    What ??? Where are you drawing these conclusions from ? I would say that the Holy Spirit is not leading you here and your letting some of the imagery of prophecy go to your imagination. These are difficult things to understand perhaps you should focus on the incredible gift that God has given us through Christ. :)

    Regards
     
  3. BULWARK

    BULWARK Member

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    phoenix,
    that is good advise, but It is everywere I read in every chapter.


    maybe if you could explain isiah 66 ; 15 I might see what others see these chariots to be.

    thanks for the advise.

    jeopardy. :)
     
  4. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

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    JC,

    Your question reminds me of a book I once read which discussed the possibility that God was super-technological rather than supernatural. The author was very creative in his explanations and when you think about it a very advanced technology might appear supernatural to a backward culture. It was an interesting book and even referenced Ezekial's vision of wheels within wheels as reference to flying saucers.

    However, the whole theory is merely speculation and raises many more questions than it answers. For instance, if God and angels are merely advanced aliens where did they come from? Wouldn't that prove the evolution theory? How are aliens able to deal with humans on a 'spiritual level' such as demon possession? How can they communicate spiritual truth, fortell the future and be able to relay it to man in a 'spiritual' manner? How can they answer prayer that is only spoken in our minds, and do we all have a little 'personal alien' who follows us around in his little flying saucer granting our wishes like on the flintstones?

    I rejected this theory because at any depth below the surface it gets way too bizarre.

    All students of the bible come to realize that some verses are symbolic. The bible speaks of God coming and going but if we accept that God is omnipotent and omnipresent then He can neither come nor go because he is everywhere at once. Since he is everywhere at once he doesn't need transportation such as chariots etc. So why does the bible talk about chariots? I believe Isaiah is seeing a 'physical' manifestation of God rather than the all present spiritual manifestion. Jesus tells us He is going to return in the clouds and in this instance I believe 'chariot' is a symbol for the 'clouds'.

    Now then, where does it say the Lord comes back and kills women and children? I can accept that women are destroyed, since there is nothing which makes a woman more or less righteous or virtuous as her male counterpart. But lets keep in mind that this event occurs AFTER seven years in which God judges mankind and gives EVERY opportunity to repent of his wicked deeds and recognize God as the creator.
     
  5. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

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    Hi jeopardy,

    Here's a link to Matthew Henry' study on Isaiah 66. It's one of many commentaries, do a simple search in Yahoo or any other search engine for others or at the home page of Christianforums on the bottom left of the page is a link to the Blue Letter Bible. There are commentaries available there also.

    http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/comm_read/1019660439.html

    Do you have a study Bible ? There are some really good ones out there for folks like me who need things explained in simpler terms. Look at Rev 1:14-18

    His head and [his] hairs [were] white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes [were] as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance [was] as the sun shineth in his strength. And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

    Is this some frightening being ? Out of his mouth came a two edged sword, feet like brass, eyes were like flame ? Of course not, it's Christ. The bible is full of so much symbolism and images it's hard to get a hold of sometimes.

    Regards
     
  6. BULWARK

    BULWARK Member

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    Hey great, thanks for that link phoenix.
    Yea, I can see the symbolism there phoenix but check out the scriptures that I will put to Willis at the end of my post and see if it is symbolic.



    Hey Willis, it was a book that did it to me too, “The Book of Enoch”.
    What happened to me was, I had read the bible so much that I decided to read the apocrypha and I studied the book of Enoch and that sent me into seeing the heavens as the sky and the angels as aliens and so on until I saw it everywhere I read in the bible.

    There is only one thing holding my Christianity together;

    :D :D

    This is the reasoning that keeps me awear of a bigger picture and a creator and an omnipresent god. I can’t let go of that spiritual relationship with god because it is the only thing I have that is solid truth to me.


    Ya sees, this appears to go in line with Isaiah to me. He will return through the clouds just the way he left but before that day he will plead with all flesh from the heavens (sky in Hebrew), look at this.

    Isaiah 24
    1 Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and market it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattered abroad the inhabitants thereof.
    2 And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him.
    3 The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word.
    4 The earth mourned and faded away, the world languished and faded away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.
    5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
    6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.


    It goes on to say;
    14 They shall lift up their voice, they shall sing for the majesty of the LORD, they shall cry aloud from the sea.
    15 Wherefore glorify ye the LORD in the fires, even the name of the LORD God of Israel in the isles of the sea.

    And then;
    17 Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.
    18 And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.
    19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
    20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

    Hey guys, that was just one simple chapter of the bible and I don`t think any of that is symbolic, is it??


    All you preterist ,work that one out, how is this past :clap:
     
  7. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

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    Acts 1:9-11 show a very physical Christ ascending, being watched while it happens ,and the apostles being told He will ome back the same way.

    Revelation 20 and 21 show that once Jesus does return, he does not leave.
     
  8. BULWARK

    BULWARK Member

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    It also says he comes in the clouds.

    Messenger, what does the chariots mean in this scripture then.

    I never get anyone to be able too simple tell me what "THIS" scripture means??

    Why does everyone bring up another scripture as though it will answer the question???

    So, what are these chariots of fire that will blaze fire on the earth?

    The rest on the Isaiah scriptures as well???

    Why bring up something I am not talking about, just address the scriptures I am talking about please, shish, It is so hard to get a straight answer when it comes to scriptures that people love to totally ignore because it doesn’t match up to there doctrine or expectations of there doctrines.

    So can we address the scriptures I put forward so I can understand them because I already understand that Jesus will return like that, as I said in my last post.
     
  9. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

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    Hey Jeopardy,

    In reference to your scriptures, I think Isaiah 24 is prophecying the destruction of Israel by Nebuchadnezzar. Verse 5 helps to give the identity of the people in question. So such word imagery is apocalyptic language depicting the fall of a people (in this case the people of Israel), and it is found throughout Isaiah and the OT. The "Chariots of Fire" should best be understood as a symbol of God's authority and might. Chariots were used in battle, and I think that is why they are used in Isaiah 66, as a depiction of God coming involved in a battle to rescue His people and to slay his enemies with "fire, fury, and with sword".

    Hope that helped you understand the "chariot" usage.

    In Christ,

    Acts6:5
     
  10. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

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  11. Auntie

    Auntie THANK YOU JESUS!!

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    alien n 1 : a foreign-born resident who has not been naturalized 2 : extraterrestrial

    ex•tra•ter•res•tri•al \-te-"res-tre-el\ adj : originating or existing outside the earth or its atmosphere


    alien=extraterrestrial=something not from earth.


    I think it is probably safe to say Jesus is an alien, because He is not FROM earth---earth is what God created, so God is not FROM here. :)


    I don't know about the chariot thing...hey wait:

    char•i•ot \"char-e-et\ n : a 2-wheeled horse-drawn vehicle of ancient times used esp. in war and in races — char•i•o•teer \'char-e-e-"tir\ n

    So maybe the white horse, spoken of in Revelations, is part of the chariot thing.:) Chariot=vehicle

    JC, I think it's wonderful that you think about these things, cause it shows yer brain is workin! We all have questions, some of which won't be answered, as we look thru a glass darkly.

    The secret is to come back down to earth as soon as you can, and know that God loves you and is with you always. Keep prayin, keep reading your Bible, and keep asking the good questions. :) I don't think there is anything wrong with thinking the chariot is a literal chariot.

    Auntie Belle
     
  12. BULWARK

    BULWARK Member

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    Thanks acts,
    I had considered that possibility as well but I just couldn’t make it fit history in Babylon’s fall.

    The reasons that I don’t believed that it wasn’t Nebuchadnezzar was because of scriptures that don’t hold normal apocalyptic symbolic methods like whole earth and inhabitancy of the earth and kings and hosts of the earth and isles of the sea, for it to be relevant to Babylon.

    I do have a good understanding of the apocalyptic side of Judaism in the last 400 yrs before Christ so I am with you on allot of what you say Acts (even if I don’t believe Jesus has returned).

    Look at this;

    Isaiah 24
    1 Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and market it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattered abroad the inhabitants thereof.


    In prophetic or apocalyptic language, there would have been a symbolic sign for which nation or people it referred to, but seems to suggest , it is the whole world.

    And again;

    15 Wherefore glorify ye the LORD in the fires, even the name of the LORD God of Israel in the “isles of the sea”.(symbolic for whole world)
    16 From the uttermost part of the earth have we heard songs, even glory to the righteous. But I said, My leanness, my leanness, woe unto me! the treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously; yea, the treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously.
    17 Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.



    Again, the words "uttermost part of the earth" and "inhabitant of the earth" and “isles of the sea” are not referring to a nation.


    But most of all Acts , check this out;

    18 And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.
    19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
    20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
    21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.



    Read that carefully because I am all form historically fulfilled prophecies but if you think all of it has past, then I have to disagree.

    This says clearly that it is a global advent to me.

    I have considered the fall of Babylon and the fact that she never rose again but this is not referring to Babylon as the earth;

    1. Because Babylon did not fall in this manner at all.

    2. Apocalyptic writing doesn’t use the word "EARTH" to describe a nation or an empire anywhere that I can remember.

    3. It does say who it will affect, "v21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth."

    This affected even the fallen angels and all there kings of the earth.

    That was not the case in 537 BC when Cyrus defeated Babylon either.


    So I gutta conclude that this is a future advent on a global scale, as mentioned in other places in the bible and apocryphal writings.

    The chariots however, could very well be symbolic, as you have described.

    MAYBE??? Not defiantly. :Scratch:

    Because of multitudes of other scriptures that I don’t wish to discuss hear, I get that impression.

    Thanks for your honest and straightforward answer Acts; it was exactly what I was asking for.

    Jeopardy. :)
     
  13. BULWARK

    BULWARK Member

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    Auntie,
    thanks for your incouragment.

    I like the way you pulled those words apart to make meaning of the word.

    please , do more of that in the forum, it is very educational.

    thanks

    Jeopardy. :)
     
  14. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

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    Good stuff, Auntie.

    Hey Bulwark (interesting name choice),

    You raise good points, however because of forum rules, I think it's best not to go into more about the "history" stuff here. You might want to discuss it with me on a different forum. If you don't want to discuss it that's fine too.

    In Christ,

    Acts6:5
     
  15. BULWARK

    BULWARK Member

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    this is the third attempt at this post. the first was deleted by a moderator because of comments that broke rule # 7 and after my cincear apology , I posted again , closing the discusion because of these history rules but then I was informed by a moderator that the only one stopping this discussion is you. ;) :p

    so , I get the impression that it is ok for you to answer my questions.

    use as much history as you like and if it doesn`t get contentious , we should be ok, I think ,but until we are warned to stop , I think you are using the forum history rule to divert from answering my questions.

    so, you can`t get out of it that easly acts :D

    so fire away at your historical response .
    if we over step we will stop at a moderators warning but I want my questions answered, no hiding :kiss: :D
     
  16. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

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    Hi Bulwark. I'll be glad to answer your question. I was just trying to adhere to Erwin's request, that's all. If I do post about historical fulfillments I don't know how I'm not breaking the rule, but if the moderator okayed it for this discussion then I'll add my two cents. No hiding involved, my Age of Empires friend.

    I'll tell you what, we could settle this whole thing with a deathmatch. Blackforest, 200 units. I'll be the Byzantines. Whoever wins the fight has the correct interpretation of scripture. Sound good? :)

    Seriously, I'll respond as soon as I can. Right now I'm heading out of town for the day. See you soon.

    In Christ,

    Acts6:5
     
  17. Catchup

    Catchup Active Member

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    Bulwark: You say you are a Christian that is confused. It will do you no good, to listen to the lessons of heresy taught by the Full Preterist. Have you heard the term "heresy"? It is false teachings such as the full preterist offer...It is to be avoided. Turn a death ear to those that would distort the gospel. Do not lose yourself in the traps of their minds where nothing is at it seems. :(

    I have found a web site that warns of such people.

    This person wrote a paper about Christ returning for final judgement upon the world. His name is Irenaeus. He lived from 130 to 202 AD. He was a disciple of Polycarp who in turn was a disciple of the apostle John. In about 180 AD, Irenaeus wrote a set of books against Gnostic errors called Adversus haerseses or Against Heresies. In book 5 Chapter 28 Irenaeus speaks of the antichrist and lets the reader know that he will not show up for about 2000 years...

    Now Bulwark you are at a crossroads...You need to decide. Do you listen, to those that falsify the word of God...or would you rather learn, what someone who was much closer to the truth has to say....

    "Writings of church fathers"

    :) LOVE
     
  18. BULWARK

    BULWARK Member

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    When will this forum settle down and have some respect for others :mad: Catch-up, I am well educated and am offended at your suggestion that I bloke my eyes and ears.




    Rule # 2 no trolling.
    This will also include posts that put down another Christian group or denomination. Such behaviour is grounds for immediate suspension.

    I am not allowed to say such things about the roman Catholics or the j/ws or the Mormons or the 7th dyers because I would be braking the rules but for some reason everyone thinks they have the right to smash rule #2 in to oblivion, not just brake it, when the Preterists are the subject.

    Catch-up, this is a direct violation of the rules and the reason that is, is because it is offensive to do this to others.

    I have my own brain and my Christianity is in confusion because of this exact attitude that comes from Christians as though they know what the truth is when they don’t know it any better than the next person.

    The next person that tells me to not listen to Preterists, will be enough for me to find a preterits thread and go ask them all about what they believe and I will lap all of it up because I am not a Christian that lives my life in fear of the truth like most Christians that make statements like this.

    I am a confused Christian because Christians don’t act like Christians, that is why and this is a perfect example.
    catch up , Acts is a friend , a mate , do you know what that is??

    I am not going to close my ears or eyes to a mate , not any mate and if I did do that when I came hear , then I wouldn`t have had the chance to get to know Acts so be carful what you say and to who you say it.
     
  19. BULWARK

    BULWARK Member

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    ok acts , a deathmatch it is, winner takes all. :clap: :clap:

    I am going to get my AOE of my mate because he is borowing it because I got empire earth and we are going to settle this over a deathmatch :D

    but

    let me build a senario and you build a senario and we will have the best out of three.

    so we will do my senario and then we will do your senario and then we will have it out on a deathmatch.

    sound good.
     
  20. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

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    Well, Bulwark, what can I say. I'll be happy to play you in a game online (although our theologies won't on the line).

    Catchup

    Just for your information, I am in between partial and full preterism. I have not come to a permanent position as of yet. What I will be explaining to Bulwark is not full-preterism or heresy, but the recognition of prophetic/apocalyptic language in the Old Testament. Such language is recognized even by Evangelical futurist scholars, so this isn't a "preterist thing", it is a biblical thing. It's irrational to believe that just because preterism may be wrong that means everything I believe or teach must be wrong.

    By the way, did you find the definition for stoicheion that means "earth, wind, water, air" yet? ;)

    In Christ,

    Acts6:5
     
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