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Featured Jesus was punished for our sins, but are we forgiven?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by zoidar, Mar 25, 2020 at 1:07 AM.

  1. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    WERE we forgiven?

    It's something I have been thinking about.

    Was I allready forgiven before I came to faith, I just hadn't received it, or was I first forgiven when I repented and came to faith?

    Why do we Christians return to ask for forgiveness if everything is allready forgiven, if you know what I mean?

    What does the Bible say?
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2020 at 1:20 AM
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  2. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    The moment Jesus died on the Cross, everyone's sins were paid for in His death.

    Jesus Sacrifice was for sin, therefore YES you were forgiven when Jesus died, even thought you personally would not be born for another 2,000 yrs. that when God Drew you to His son for Salvation by His Grace you received that Forgiveness provided for you 2,000 yrs. earlier.

    When you came to Faith by the Grace of God the Forgiveness was applied to your account, but it was always there until it was applied to you.

    Christians return to ask for forgiveness even though they have already been forgiven, because they do not understand where it is they stand "IN" Christ.

    Gal. 2:20
    I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

    The do not understand nor do they believe, they are.
    Dead to the Flesh.
    Dead to the Law.
    Dead to sin.
     
  3. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

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    Because Jesus was a man He would have died anyway, just like us. What made Him different was He did only the will of the Father and not His own. He died (because of our sins) but He was worthy of resurrection for not putting His will ahead of the Father. He gained a Kingdom, not for sinless beings like Himself, but those here who reject the will of man for the will of the Father. We are by no means worthy to be Kings, but He finds those who repent worthy of His Kingdom. Not Heaven, but His Kingdom. Repentance is like swearing allegiance to a new land. We must leave the old ways behind. God already agreed to forgive us if we do.
     
  4. Aussie Pete

    Aussie Pete Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Forgiveness is available, but not automatic. I had a dream where there was a queue of people at what was like a teller in a bank. I was in the queue. One by one, the people went to the "cashier" and gave him a ticket. My turn came and I gave him my ticket. He stamped it - "PAID". The ticket was sin I had committed.

    All the sin of all mankind, from Adam to the last sin committed, has been paid for. It's like an amazing bank account. It has to be drawn on to be effective. If a person denies that they have a bill to pay, why would they bother? The first step is to admit that you are a sinner. The next is to accept God's wonderful provision, the sacrificial death of the Lord Jesus. We are spiritually bankrupt, so to speak. We have no way of paying for sin - the wages of sin is death and we are already dead. So only a living, sinless Person can pay on our behalf. That is the Lord Jesus - and Him alone.
     
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  5. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Don't you ask God for forgiveness when you have wronged?
     
  6. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    I would say, not in the way you have asked the question, because to begin with, I assume you are of the Belief, a Regenerated Believer still sins.

    Therefore the question I ask is, what were you Regenerated From and To?

    Regeneration being the New Birth, the Born Again experience, Newness of life, if that Newness of life still resides in the midst of a sinful life then what is new about it, nothing has changed, only now you are on the treadmill of Sinning and Repenting of that sin,

    Therefore you are still a sinner at that point, what was the Sacrifice for?

    The Sacrifice was not only to Forgive your past sins, but to set you free from sin.

    Rom. 6:18
    Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

    Rom. 6:22
    But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

    Does the Regenerated Believe which posses Everlasting Life sin, how?

    1 Jn.3:9
    Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    The Believer possessing Eternal Life has this Eternal Life because, the Holy Spirit of God resides within Him.
     
  7. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Sin grieves Him and if we are His, we will feel His pain as sin separates.

    So we agonise over lost fellowship, confess, repent and are again reconciled.
     
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  8. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    The Pharisees had no relationship with Him and were super familiar with scripture.

    So many here are super familiar with scripture and I would feel a lot more comfortable if they could also talk of His Love, Compassion and Mercy.
     
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  9. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

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    The Pharisees were of the world of man (as was the later gentile church) but Jesus was of the Kingdom as was His early church. The world of man is about self rather than loving all as self as taught to be the will of the Father
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2020 at 2:57 PM
  10. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I believe everyone sins.

    Do you mean a born again believer's wrong doing isn't counted as sin? I wouldn't agree to that.

    I don't know how to understand 1 John 3:9.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2020 at 7:23 AM
  11. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    So no one needs to repent and change their lives?
     
  12. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    Maybe we ask forgiveness, because we regret what we have done. And we are forgiven, when we regret, because it shows we understand that we have done wrongly and want to do better next time.
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    "Atonement" is the key to the question.

    Lev 16 "Day of Atonement" God shows us that BOTH the work of Christ as "the sin offering" and the work of Christ as "High Priest" in the sanctuary are needed to complete the full scope of 'Atonement'.

    1 John 2:2 Christ the "Atoning Sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the whold world" is full and complete at the cross.

    And that leaves only "the MAIN POINT" as Paul says in Heb 8:1-5 - the work of Christ in heaven as High Priest

    There He is doing the Hebrews 9 work of officiating in the sanctuary in heaven "For us" as High Priest and each person individually comes to God to have the benefit of the completed "atoning sacrifice" applied in person, "if we confess.. He is faithful and just to forgive" 1 John 1:9

    In Matthew 18 - we have "forgiveness revoked"
    In Ezek 18 - we have "forgiveness revoked"
    In Romans 11 - we see "Salvation revoked"
    At the end of 1 Cor 9 Paul describes the risk of "salvation revoked"


    ========================================
    fast forward to the end of the age:


    But salvation/forgiveness cannot be revoked for one for whom not only the "atoning sacrifice" of Christ on the cross is complete - but also the work of Christ as High Priest in heaven is finished for that person ... they cannot "switch" from good tree to bad tree or from bad tree to good tree (in Matt 7 terminology) at that point.

    And once Christ's work as High Priest ends - nobody changes sides or "status" or "states". So in Rev 15:8 in the future a day comes when all of that work of Christ in the Sanctuary in heaven ends..


    then comes the sealed event where God says

    "10 And he *said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. 11 Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.” Rev 22:10-11
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2020 at 9:37 AM
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    good points - and 1 John has a lot to say on the topic

    1 John 3
    4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
    6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
    7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
    8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
    9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

    1 John 2
    My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
    2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

    3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.
    ...
    9 Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness.

    Matt 7
    21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.

    Romans 2:13
    "13 it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified."


    1 John 1
    9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

    =============================================
    Do not be deceived

    1 John 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

    1 Cor 6
    7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
    9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2020 at 2:57 PM
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  15. not under law

    not under law Member

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    If you asked the vast majority of Christians if you must be sinless/perfect in your flesh to be a Christian they would respond 'No' for they know no one lives a perfectly sinless life(1John1:8)
    However, if you asked the vast majority of Christians if someone could be a Christian if they lived a sinfull lifestyle as a way of life, they would also reply 'No' 1John3:9
    There is a huge difference between sin you will commit because you cannot perfectly obey the letter of the law, sin you in your heart do not want because you have been born again, and living a lifestyle of sin without caring about it. Two completely different things.
     
  16. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    ...when you came to faith. It was available but not received previously.

    I know what you mean, but we repent of our misdoings and so confess our wrongdoing to the one who was wronged (God). You do the same thing with a parent or close friend, even if you are certain that he or she has not abandoned you because of what you had done.
     
  17. BBAS 64

    BBAS 64 Contributor Supporter

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    Good Day, Pete

    You were redeemed by the kinsman redeemer.... Jesus was crucified before the foundations of the world. that work (at the cross) was the means by which he redeemed us, at that point all His redeemed were "in Him"

    You experienced God's gifting of faith and repentance in time . There was nothing out side of God's control that would have prevented that from happening.

    The whole of Christian life is a life of repentance:

    Martin Luther's first Theses - When our Lord Jesus said “repent.” He meant that the whole of the Christian life should be repentance.

    It is covered here by Sinclair Ferguson

    The Whole of the Christian Life Is Repentance


    The closer I get to the Savior the more I come to understand just how much I need his gift of repentance.

    In Him,

    Bill
     
  18. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You managed to "sneak in" quite much theology in that post Bill. :)

    I get you saying we were redeemed/forgiven before we even knew it.
     
  19. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Hey, I am blessed by your exchange...

    The mystery and beauty of the cross is rarely expressed.

    Thank you.
     
  20. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    REALLY?

    Take what I said, then take it to the farthest extreme, about what I did not say, then ask a question on what you do not know about but should, concerning Repentance.....Cool :scratch:
     
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