Jesus was pro-abortion....

[Texas Lynn]

Today at 04:19 AM Job_38 said this in Post #34

In order not to have confusion: What do you mean by "carry a fetus to term"?

That is when a woman gives birth.  It usually happens in a hospital, though midwifery and giving birth at home is making a comeback. 

Sometimes births are by Caesarian section.  This is what happened in MacBeth when MacDuff was born.  The three Weird Sisters prophecy was that MacBeth could not be killed "by a man of woman born";  MacDuff, then, was able to kill MacBeth because he was, as he said, "from my mother's womb, untimely plucked".

There is considerably more information on the process available through books or on the internet, I'm sure.


 

 

[Outspoken]

Lynn is operating under the illusion that its not a human until its out of the womb which is quite false.

 

[jseek21]

God bless supermagdalen

 

[jseek21]

At child is a child. There was an abortion doctor a few years back who left the field because, while he was performing an abortion, the child grabbed his pinky finger. At that moment he knew it was a child and had acted to reach out to him. It seemed it was also God reaching him.

 

[Vladimir]

For me, abortion represents a simple act of killing. What is the difference, where to commit a murdering - in the room, or outdside? It remains murdering.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Today at 06:22 AM Outspoken said this in Post #42

Lynn is operating under the illusion that its not a human until its out of the womb which is quite false.

UPON WHAT DO YOU BASE THAT?  I can see the wisdom of seeing a late third trimester fetus as all-but-human, but a zygote, embryo, or early first trimester fetus without a brain function is at pest potential humanity, not actual.  This is a recent creation which was conceptualized in the 1950s to oppose liberalization of abortion by those wishing to control the sexuality of women.  Anti-abortion laws were passed to protect the woman, not the fetus, in the 1800s.  Early surgeons back then did not have the resources or know-how to protect the woman.  Have you ever read about the aftermath of the shooting of President James Garfield by Charles  Guttieu?  Essentially Garfield's doctors killed him by infecting his wound.  Guttieu testified at his trial that he did not kill the President but that Garfield was killed by medical malpractice (Guttieu was convicted and hanged anyway).  If doctors back then couldn't save a President  of the United States, how could they save a hemorraging woman of humble means?

Much of social conservatism today is based on nostalgia for things that never were and historical revisionism.  While we are free to disapprove of abortion, making it illegal again would not better the culture, but would only make things worse.  Bottom line:  if you don't believe in abortion, don't have one.

 

[Dewjunkie]

Lynn, if it's not a life until third tri-mester, why are people who assault a woman and kill her fetus prior to that charged with murder?

 

[Texas Lynn]

Today at 06:15 PM Dewjunkie said this in Post #47

Lynn, if it's not a life until third tri-mester, why are people who assault a woman and kill her fetus prior to that charged with murder?

Actually I don't think they are in most jurisdictions, but where they are prosecutors are using it as a tool for leverage.  Criminal courts are not unlike auction barns in this regard.  Say a guy robs a convenience store and shoots and kills the pregnant clerk.  The prosecution has a solid case.  So they approach the offender and his attorney and say, "Look we got you.  we're charging you with armed robbery, murder of the clerk, and murder of her fetus.  All this adds up to a death penalty case.  But we'll take the death penalty off the table if you plead guilty and you'll get life."  Usually the defense attorney will advise the guy to take the deal and he will.

Anti-abortion groups are pushing these laws at the state and federal level not to prevent crime but to push their agenda.  By setting a precedent, passing a law like this and having the courts say it's not unconstitutional, they use it to legally butress the 'fetus is a person' argument.

The question is, as always, where do you want to go with this?  Most agree with President Clinton's goal to make abortion 'safe, legal, and rare'.  You don't forward the third one by taking away the other two. 

In Iran a woman was burned at the stake for having an abortion in 1988.  This is not Iran.  At least not yet.

 

[Dewjunkie]

Today at 12:21 PM Texas Lynn said this in Post #48

Actually I don't think they are in most jurisdictions, but where they are prosecutors are using it as a tool for leverage.  Criminal courts are not unlike auction barns in this regard.  Say a guy robs a convenience store and shoots and kills the pregnant clerk.  The prosecution has a solid case.  So they approach the offender and his attorney and say, "Look we got you.  we're charging you with armed robbery, murder of the clerk, and murder of her fetus.  All this adds up to a death penalty case.  But we'll take the death penalty off the table if you plead guilty and you'll get life."  Usually the defense attorney will advise the guy to take the deal and he will.

Anti-abortion groups are pushing these laws at the state and federal level not to prevent crime but to push their agenda.  By setting a precedent, passing a law like this and having the courts say it's not unconstitutional, they use it to legally butress the 'fetus is a person' argument.

The problem is, woman's rights groups will (rightfully so) scream "murder" if a boyfriend punches a woman in the stomach and kills her unborn child.  Many times, they are the same groups that want a woman's right to choose abortion, which then presents the dilemma of does choice establish legality?  If a woman chooses to not have the baby, and aborts it, it's fine (shouldn't be).  But if the boyfriend or husband doesn't want the baby, and kills it, it's murder (should be).  A very sketchy line to be drawing when discussing a human being. 

The question is, as always, where do you want to go with this?  Most agree with President Clinton's goal to make abortion 'safe, legal, and rare'.  You don't forward the third one by taking away the other two.

Actually, if you take away the other two, perhaps it allows for other options like adoption or maybe even having the child and then deciding it wasn't so bad after all.  Making it easy for a woman to have an abortion will not make it rare, instead an easy (in commission) solution to an unwanted problem.     

In Iran a woman was burned at the stake for having an abortion in 1988.  This is not Iran.  At least not yet.

 

And I hope it never is.  But I wonder what makes that woman's life more important than the life growing in her body and what it might have become.   

 

[jseek21]

Lynn, no one is trying to control your sexuality. What the public does have the right to control is murder.

 

[jseek21]

Lynn, what is your view on adoption. It seems like you are so set on killing that you do not even wish to see the other options. I can tell you, I can testify to the fact that I was one of those childre who was this close to being aborted and killed. my mother did not, and now you have me. Too bad we cannot hear the testimonies of children who have been aborted. i wonder what their view on it would be.

I'm sure they would NOT say, "Well I was an inconvience to my mom. I deserved to be killed."

 

[jseek21]

Lynn's complaints about "supressing her of her sexuality" remind me of a song by the Eagles:

I turn on the tube and what do I see
A whole lotta people cryin' 'Don't blame me'
They point their crooked little fingers ar everybody else
Spend all their time feelin' sorry for themselves
Victim of this, victim of that
Your momma's too thin; your daddy's too fat

Get over it
Get over it
All this whinin' and cryin' and pitchin' a fit
Get over it, get over it

You say you haven't been the same since you had your little crash
But you might feel better if I gave you some cash
The more I think about it, Old Billy was right
Let's kill all the lawyers, kill 'em tonight
You don't want to work, you want to live like a king
But the big, bad world doesn't owe you a thing

Get over it
Get over it
If you don't want to play, then you might as well split
Get over it, Get over it

It's like going to confession every time I hear you speak
You're makin' the most of your losin' streak
Some call it sick, but I call it weak

You drag it around like a ball and chain
You wallow in the guilt; you wallow in the pain
You wave it like a flag, you wear it like a crown
Got your mind in the gutter, bringin' everybody down
Complain about the present and blame it on the past
I'd like to find your inner child and kick its little bass

Get over it
Get over it
All this *witchin' and moanin' and pitchin' a fit
Get over it, get over it

Get over it
Get over it
It's gotta stop sometime, so why don't you quit
Get over it, get over it

 

[supermagdalena]

First of all, I'm not really sorry if my signature offends you or something...if it's extremist, then fine. Jesus was an extremist. That's why they killed him. It's not saying kill people who don't believe what you believe, but it does say not to dumb down our faith because it offends people. Things like Christians accepting sex outside of marriage, and in my opinion abortion, is dumbing down our faith to appease the public. "Take it as joy...when you are persecuted for your faith."

"Suppressed sexuality" sure is a battle cry of many women today. In my opinion, it's quite selfish. Your basically saying it's hurting your right to do whatever the heck you want. We're not supposed to do what we want. It's what God wants.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Yesterday at 07:57 PM Dewjunkie said this in Post #49

The problem is, woman's rights groups will (rightfully so) scream "murder" if a boyfriend punches a woman in the stomach and kills her unborn child. 

Actually while women's rights groups oppose domestic violence they also oppose legislation to make killing a fetus through DV, gunshot, or other assault murder because of the legal precedent that would set.

Making it easy for a woman to have an abortion will not make it rare, instead an easy (in commission) solution to an unwanted problem.  

What lowers abortion rates is empowerment of girls and women.    

 

 

[Texas Lynn]

Yesterday at 08:17 PM jseek21 said this in Post #50

Lynn, no one is trying to control your sexuality. What the public does have the right to control is murder.

I don't mean me personally.  The fact is abortion is not considered murder per se by most.

My point is related to the organized anti-abortion groups.  Pretty much they all oppose birth control, sex education, condom distribution, etc.  Some have talked to them of compromise:  "we could outlaw abortion after the first trimester if you support birth control and sex ed," they're told, but they will have none of it.  Their motive appears to MAKE THE WOMAN PAY for having illicit sex.

On message boards, maybe not this one, crude comments like that the solution to abortion is 'for women to keep their legs together' made by men are de riegeur.  On more lofty venues, the leaders of anti-abort groups are quick to blame the women with unwanted pregnancies for their own predicament.  (Interestingly, several leaders of anti-abort groups have actually admitted getting abortions themselves or obtaining them for their daughters.)  Most appear to adhere to a virgin/ho dichotomy of the female population.


 

 

[Texas Lynn]

Yesterday at 08:23 PM jseek21 said this in Post #52

Lynn's complaints about "supressing her of her sexuality" remind me of a song by the Eagles:

I turn on the tube and what do I see
A whole lotta people cryin' 'Don't blame me'
They point their crooked little fingers ar everybody else
Spend all their time feelin' sorry for themselves
Victim of this, victim of that
Your momma's too thin; your daddy's too fat

Get over it
Get over it
All this whinin' and cryin' and pitchin' a fit
Get over it, get over it

You say you haven't been the same since you had your little crash
But you might feel better if I gave you some cash
The more I think about it, Old Billy was right
Let's kill all the lawyers, kill 'em tonight
You don't want to work, you want to live like a king
But the big, bad world doesn't owe you a thing

Get over it
Get over it
If you don't want to play, then you might as well split
Get over it, Get over it

It's like going to confession every time I hear you speak
You're makin' the most of your losin' streak
Some call it sick, but I call it weak

You drag it around like a ball and chain
You wallow in the guilt; you wallow in the pain
You wave it like a flag, you wear it like a crown
Got your mind in the gutter, bringin' everybody down
Complain about the present and blame it on the past
I'd like to find your inner child and kick its little bass

Get over it
Get over it
All this *witchin' and moanin' and pitchin' a fit
Get over it, get over it

Get over it
Get over it
It's gotta stop sometime, so why don't you quit
Get over it, get over it

Wow, I'm honored.  I don't remember them, I think they broke up before I was born---they're kind of cosmic cowboy types like Kris Kristofferfor, no?  I know ex-Eagle Don Henley lives in Dallas and he is always a big contributor to pro-choice candidates.

 

[Dewjunkie]

Lynn, you didn't address my question of what makes the Iranian woman's death more tragic than the baby she killed? And before you spout the ever popular "it's only a fetus" argument, consider this:

life, n., 1. the condition that distinguishes animals and plants from inorganic objects and dead organisms, being manifested by growth through metabolism, reproduction, and the power of adaptation to environment through changes originating internally. -The Random House College Dictionary (bold emphasis mine)

So, if life is the process of growth, then even the newest fetus is a life, as it grows from day one. It doesn't say anything about breathing or thinking. A heartbeat is just one obvious sign of life, and is present in the first tri-mester. When the heart stops beating, a person is dead. If they have a heartbeat, and they grow, they are alive. Plain and simple. Taking another person's life against their will is murder.

I find it sad that you, as a mother, you can say that your children were not alive when they were inside you, and as a Christian, you can condone something that is blatantly violating one of the Ten Commandments.

 

[supermagdalena]

Who here's actually against sex education? It's a great thing...as long as they're honest. Even a nonChristian, honest perspective on premarital sex is enough to convince many young people into convents and monasteries. Oh yes...we had slides. I'm all for sex education. It's stopped many people so far.

I'm also slightly disturbed that you would refer to your children as "fetuses carried to term".

It's not just the child I'm worried about...it's also young women and men who are decieved into thinking that an abortion is no big deal. When called to share his testimony in front of the youth group a few months ago, we all watched as a grown man of about fifty broke down in tears while recalling his most horrible mistake many, many years ago...supporting his girlfriend aborting their unborn child. It still makes him cry, and he still remembers the day his child would have been born. It still haunts him. If it's the guy who's still taking it this hard, I wonder how his former girlfriend feels about it.

 

[Evening Mist]

There seems to be a huge over-simplification here of what is involved in carrying a child to term, and going through labor and delivery. I have been extrordinarily fortunate in my life circumstances, and still found the experience to be overwhelming and bordering on traumatic. Whatever your views on abortion, please keep in mind that it trivializes pregnancy to refer to it as an "inconvenience." Especially in a world that puts such a high value on physical "perfection." No mother I know has ever seen it in such simplistic terms. It is a sacrifice of a magnititude that the average person does not ordinary make otherwise, and it should be regarded as such.

 

[supermagdalena]

Believe me, I'm not oversimplifying the pain or discomfort of pregnancy and childbirth. It just seems like if a woman has made her choice to have sex when she is nowhere near ready for a child, she should have to live with the consequences of her actions instead of getting off with no ramification by killing what's growing inside of her.

Do you know how many families who can't have children would die for those children that women kill each year? My mom was one of them. She couldn't get pregnant for years, and it got to the point where she would see a pregnant woman and burst into tears. They were going through the adoption process, but dimly, when they found out that my mom was pregnant with me. There was a slim chance of them getting a child. Think about those women too.