Jesus Was Born On: 11th September 3 BC

[Guide To The Bible]

On the 11th September 3 BC (Day 1 Month 7 - Tishri) God used the constellation Virgo to give us a sign in the heavens:

That evening, from Bethlehem, as the constellation of Virgo became visible just above the horizon towards the west, it appeared as if sun set had ‘cloaked’ Virgo’s body. The crescent moon was positioned right under her feet, whereas the day before, and after, the moon was not under her feet. Also, above Virgo’s head are nine stars that form the constellation of Leo, which represents the Lion of the tribe of Judah who is Jesus. That night however Mercury, Venus and Jupiter were also in Leo, making a total of twelve stars above Virgo’s head. Planets were considered as stars in ancient days, and the word planet literally means wondering star. The book of Revelation describes a great sign in the Heavens, with the sun, moon, and stars, and describes that the child being born was Jesus:

Revelation 12:1-2
1 And a great sign was seen in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, 2 and upon her head a crown of twelve stars, and she being with child screamed, travailing in birth, and agonised to be delivered.

Revelation 12:5
She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron sceptre.” And her child was snatched up to God, and to his throne.

The prophet Isaiah also made a prophetic allusion to this sign over 700 years before.

Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the LORD Himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive, and give birth to a son, and will call him Emmanuel.

The best time to have witnessed this momentary display was between 5:53 p.m. and 6:35 p.m. that evening, and Jesus was born at about 6:12 p.m. It’s possible to be confident that this was the time of Jesus’ birth because it was also at this precise time that the brightest star in Virgo, called Spica, which represents an ear of corn being held in Virgo’s left hand, appeared to ‘touch’ the horizon, or ‘alight to the earth.’ The name of this star in Hebrew is Tsemech which means ‘branch,’ and is the subject of prophecy by Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Zechariah. Spica is actually Latin for ‘ear of corn’ or ‘a kernel of wheat’, and Jesus Himself alluded to this sign:

John 12:23-24
23 And Jesus responded to them, “The hour is come that the Son of Man should be magnified. 24 Truly, truly I say to you, unless a kernel of wheat alights to the earth and dies, it remains a single seed. But if it dies, it bears fruit.”

There are twenty different Hebrew words for the word branch, but only one of them, Tsemech, is used exclusively in the Old Testament four times and each time it is in reference to the coming Messiah:

Isaiah 4:2
In that day the Branch of God will be beautiful, and resplendent, and the fruit of the land will be the pride, and splendour of the survivors in Israel.

Jeremiah 23:5
Behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD. “When I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely, and do what is just and right in the land.

Zechariah 3:8
Hear O High Priest and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring My Servant, the Branch.”

Zechariah 6:12-13
12 And speak to him saying, this is what of Hosts says: ‘Here is the Man whose name is the Branch, and He will branch out from His place and build the Temple of God, 13 He will be clothed with majesty, and will sit, and rule on His throne. And He will be a Priest on His throne. And there will be prosperity between the two.’

In studying these prophesies, several things can be learned about the identity of the Branch. He is a King, a Servant, a Man, and a Priest. His name is God, He is our Righteousness and is Jesus Himself. These themes about the Messiah were divinely developed in the Gospels. He is resented as the King in Matthew, a Servant in Mark, a Man in Luke, a Priest in John, and as Himself in John’s Revelation. This Branch prophecy is also eluded to else where:

Matthew 2:23
and he went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets, that he would be called a Nazarene.

The name Nazareth means ‘Branch-town,’ as the root word for Nazareth is Netzer which means branch or shoot. A Nazarene from Nazareth is like saying an Israeli from Israel. A Netzer is actually a particular kind of branch that grows from a stump of a plant that’s been cut down and has spouted up some distance from the stump, this is what happened with Jesus:

Isaiah 11:1
A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.

The stump of Jesse relates to what happened to the Davinic line of descendants. David had taken Israel to the height of its greatest achievements, which his son Solomon maintained until his death but then the kingdom divided due to civil war and continued to decline till the southern kingdom of Judah was taken into captivity in Babylon. This was the stump. The Davinic descendants continued on into virtual obscurity until Jesus was born and this is the Shoot, the Netzer that ‘came up’ in Nazareth far from the original stump in Bethlehem where David had been born.

 

[.Mikha'el.]

Nope. Herod the Great died in 4 BC.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

Nope. Herod the Great died in 4 BC.

That date is based on Josephus’s remark in Antiquities 17.6.4 that there was a lunar eclipse shortly before Herod died. This is traditionally ascribed to the eclipse of March 13, 4 B.C. Unfortunately, this eclipse was visible only very late that night in Judea and was additionally a minor and only partial eclipse. There were no lunar eclipses visible in Judea thereafter until 1 B.C. Herod died between the lunar eclipse that occurred on 9th January 1 BC, which was a full blood red lunar eclipse visible in the evening, and Passover, which would have began that year on 10 April 1 BC.

 

[cre8id]

Dr. Michael S. Heiser, a Biblical language and ancient Mid-East language and customs achademic agrees with the Sept. 11 in 3 BC date. Here is a link to his article:
September 11: Happy Birthday to Jesus | Dr. Michael Heiser
Inside this article is a link to a short YouTube video about the astronomy and constillations involved.

Another person who reached a very close and similar conclusion is astronomer Barry Setterfield:
Christmas Star technical notes

 

[Guide To The Bible]

Dr. Michael S. Heiser, a Biblical language and ancient Mid-East language and customs achademic agrees with the Sept. 11 in 3 BC date. Here is a link to his article:
September 11: Happy Birthday to Jesus | Dr. Michael Heiser
Inside this article is a link to a short YouTube video about the astronomy and constipation a involved.

Another person who reached a very close and similar conclusion is astronomer Barry Setterfield:
Christmas Star technical notes

 

[cre8id]

Upon some reflexion, I think Setterfield's date is better. Either is within the realm of real possiblilities.
Christmas Star technical notes

Setterfield is a professional astronomer and has his own Christmas Star video out, but it is on DVD and only available from his site:
DVDs and book

 

[Deborah~]

That date is based on Josephus’s remark in Antiquities 17.6.4 that there was a lunar eclipse shortly before Herod died.

Actually, the 4 B.C. date is based on a lot more evidence than just that one astronomical event. Such as the mention in both Josephus as well as Dio Cassius' Roman History that Herod Archelaus was deposed in the 10th year of his reign, which we know from other sources was 6 A.D., making his reign having begun in 4 B.C. There are coins as well from Antipas that date to 39 A.D. that were minted in the 43th year of his reign, again marking his reign beginning in 4 B.C.
And many other such evidences aside from astronomical observations.
The truth is there were a number of astronomical events that occurred in the decade that Jesus was born, beginning in 7 B.C. with a conjunction of planets that only occurs once every 800 years, and through 1 B.C., all of which bears witness that God has given the world plenty of signs and wonders bearing testimony of Jesus' advent into the world. But I don't think it is necessary to try to tie the moment of Jesus' birth to any one event, and only leads to a lot of speculation and differences of opinion and confusion.
So while the vast majority of historians will agree that there were in fact a number of astrological events in the years surrounding Jesus' birth, none of them can be emphatically proven to be the date, let alone the hour and moment, when Jesus was born.
That Herod died between the lunar eclipse of March 13, 4 B.C. and the Passover a month later is based on far, far more evidence than just one momentary alignment of stars, however prophetic that event was.
Besides, when you think about, the stars and constellations meant different things to different people and they would have interpreted them differently. So to me it would not be at all strange if there were a number of astronomical events clustered around the birth of Jesus, and each one spoke to different people in different ways, but all with the same message.
In Christ,
Deborah ~

 

[jalek]

Greetings,

I disagree with the September date because it doesn't fit with all of the internal evidence given in scripture. It doesn't explain the Shepherds.

According to Dr. Luke, Zacharias, John the Baptist's Father, was of the order of Abijah, which was an order of Priests who served in the temple for two weeks in late April/early May. These priestly orders rotated every six months. So, the Order of Abijah would be serving again in late October/Early November. If you use the latter time frame, account for approximately 5-6 months of pregnancy for Elizabeth meeting Mary in the first chapter of Luke, which shows Mary already pregnant. It's quite possible that Mary was 1 or 2 months pregnant at the time. So, starting in late October/early November, and counting the probable months of pregnancy to birth, you come to a time frame of late December to Early January.

Also, The gospels record that the Shepherds were out with the sheep in the field. This usually only occurs during lambing season. Not every type of Sheep have lambing season in the spring. For some middle eastern sheep, lambing season begins as early as mid-December and continues until March.

The final piece that clinches it for me is John's comment in John 1:5 that the "Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it". In this passage, John is already forming a parallel to the creation, but what if he's giving a cryptic clue to the birth of Jesus as well. What is the darkest time of the year? Winter Solstice. While this last clue is admittedly a stretch, it does raise some questions. This has even more impact when you consider John's following comment about John the Baptist being a witness of the Light, and you take into consideration that John the Baptist is 6 months older than Jesus and, given a winter solstice birthday for Jesus, would've been born on the summer solstice. The Summer Solstice being the longest/brightest day of the year.

As for the stuff about the constellation Virgo and Revelation, it's important to consider that Revelation is Prophecy, meaning that it's referring to future events that at the time of the writing had not yet taken place.

In short, I see no reason to doubt the traditional date of Christmas being in December.

Jalek

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Aside from the well established dates of Herod not fitting this date, there are also astrological issues. (Barring of course the problem of Quirinius' census, Herod and so forth, but that has been covered in other threads)

The Jewish sign in Hellenistic Astrology was Aries the Ram. So for the Magi to seek a Jewish King, Aries is of some importance. This hypothesis does not fit what we know of Hellenistic astrology's precepts.

2003JHA....34..325M Page 325

 

[Adelyn Woodcock]

I am christian and still learning all of these stuffs. Thanks for sharing this information!

 

[cre8id]

I am christian and still learning all of these stuffs. Thanks for sharing this information!

Keep learning... I still need to investigate the counter-charge that Herod could not have died as late as the article I referenced claimed. I'm not trying to be lazy, but life has a way of taking up a lot of our time. The point is, I still need to investigate new ideas and verify old ones... and I have been a Christian for 40 years.

I thought you might like some information on the Magi (wise men) who visited Christ. The nativity scenes have it all wrong. Jesus was not in a manger when they came, He was a young child living in a house... so this was at least a couple of years later. That is in the Bible.
The Bible never says there were only three Magi either... there were probably a lot more. They were probably from Persia. Some think they were the descendents of the Jewish boys who, along with the prophet Daniel, became Magi of King Nebachanezzer after they were taken captive and moved to Babylon.

At any rate, here is the article, Free Resources | Friends of Israel
Hope you enjoy and find it informative.

 

[AFrazier]

I agree with the dating interpretation from Revelation. However, I do not think that is the correct date for the birth itself. The angel visited Mary in the sixth month. That would be Elul. Factoring in all appropriate intercalary months, etc., Jesus' birth, based upon an August conception and a forty week gestation, puts his birth in the range of May or June, allowing for an early or late delivery and the variable of when in the sixth month she conceived.

That's what scripture has to say on the matter.

I do agree that 3 BCE is the correct year.

I do not agree that Herod died in 4 BCE. However, neither do I agree that he died in 1 BCE. Setting aside the eclipse, which I find confounds the evidence rather than supporting it, the other collective evidence puts his death after the Day of Atonement in 3 BCE, but before the 1st of Nisan in 2 BCE.

The reason 4 BCE is impossible is that Herod didn't simply die after an eclipse, supposedly. He had to die after the 1st of Nisan in order to enter his 37th and 34th calendar years of reign. That only allows a fourteen day window, minus the known events following his death. Of those are the three days of his funeral and the preparation leading to it, the seven days of mourning Archelaus is recorded as having observed, a minimum of one day when Archelaus was hailed as king after the mourning period was over. Then there is the day of the feast itself, when he sent his soldiers to stop the rioting. That's twelve of the fourteen days right there. And that's by a conservative estimate, using only known facts without speculation of additional days unmentioned.

1 BCE is even more impossible. The notion rests on the presumption that Herod began his dual reigns at some point later than 40 and 37 BCE respectively. He didn't. This is a well documented fact.

So I hold to a different point of view. I don't think 4 BCE or 1 BCE are correct.

 

[Yasserp]

I always find it fascinating that dates and times can be narrowed down that far back and I can't make it to work on time.

 

[Quasar92]

On the 11th September 3 BC (Day 1 Month 7 - Tishri) God used the constellation Virgo to give us a sign in the heavens:
View attachment 189859
That evening, from Bethlehem, as the constellation of Virgo became visible just above the horizon towards the west, it appeared as if sun set had ‘cloaked’ Virgo’s body. The crescent moon was positioned right under her feet, whereas the day before, and after, the moon was not under her feet. Also, above Virgo’s head are nine stars that form the constellation of Leo, which represents the Lion of the tribe of Judah who is Jesus. That night however Mercury, Venus and Jupiter were also in Leo, making a total of twelve stars above Virgo’s head. Planets were considered as stars in ancient days, and the word planet literally means wondering star. The book of Revelation describes a great sign in the Heavens, with the sun, moon, and stars, and describes that the child being born was Jesus:

Revelation 12:1-2
1 And a great sign was seen in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, 2 and upon her head a crown of twelve stars, and she being with child screamed, travailing in birth, and agonised to be delivered.

Revelation 12:5
She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron sceptre.” And her child was snatched up to God, and to his throne.

The prophet Isaiah also made a prophetic allusion to this sign over 700 years before.

Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the LORD Himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive, and give birth to a son, and will call him Emmanuel.

The best time to have witnessed this momentary display was between 5:53 p.m. and 6:35 p.m. that evening, and Jesus was born at about 6:12 p.m. It’s possible to be confident that this was the time of Jesus’ birth because it was also at this precise time that the brightest star in Virgo, called Spica, which represents an ear of corn being held in Virgo’s left hand, appeared to ‘touch’ the horizon, or ‘alight to the earth.’ The name of this star in Hebrew is Tsemech which means ‘branch,’ and is the subject of prophecy by Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Zechariah. Spica is actually Latin for ‘ear of corn’ or ‘a kernel of wheat’, and Jesus Himself alluded to this sign:

John 12:23-24
23 And Jesus responded to them, “The hour is come that the Son of Man should be magnified. 24 Truly, truly I say to you, unless a kernel of wheat alights to the earth and dies, it remains a single seed. But if it dies, it bears fruit.”

There are twenty different Hebrew words for the word branch, but only one of them, Tsemech, is used exclusively in the Old Testament four times and each time it is in reference to the coming Messiah:

Isaiah 4:2
In that day the Branch of God will be beautiful, and resplendent, and the fruit of the land will be the pride, and splendour of the survivors in Israel.

Jeremiah 23:5
Behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD. “When I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely, and do what is just and right in the land.

Zechariah 3:8
Hear O High Priest and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring My Servant, the Branch.”

Zechariah 6:12-13
12 And speak to him saying, this is what of Hosts says: ‘Here is the Man whose name is the Branch, and He will branch out from His place and build the Temple of God, 13 He will be clothed with majesty, and will sit, and rule on His throne. And He will be a Priest on His throne. And there will be prosperity between the two.’

In studying these prophesies, several things can be learned about the identity of the Branch. He is a King, a Servant, a Man, and a Priest. His name is God, He is our Righteousness and is Jesus Himself. These themes about the Messiah were divinely developed in the Gospels. He is resented as the King in Matthew, a Servant in Mark, a Man in Luke, a Priest in John, and as Himself in John’s Revelation. This Branch prophecy is also eluded to else where:

Matthew 2:23
and he went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets, that he would be called a Nazarene.

The name Nazareth means ‘Branch-town,’ as the root word for Nazareth is Netzer which means branch or shoot. A Nazarene from Nazareth is like saying an Israeli from Israel. A Netzer is actually a particular kind of branch that grows from a stump of a plant that’s been cut down and has spouted up some distance from the stump, this is what happened with Jesus:

Isaiah 11:1
A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.

The stump of Jesse relates to what happened to the Davinic line of descendants. David had taken Israel to the height of its greatest achievements, which his son Solomon maintained until his death but then the kingdom divided due to civil war and continued to decline till the southern kingdom of Judah was taken into captivity in Babylon. This was the stump. The Davinic descendants continued on into virtual obscurity until Jesus was born and this is the Shoot, the Netzer that ‘came up’ in Nazareth far from the original stump in Bethlehem where David had been born.

People have been celebrating Jesus birth on December 25th for a very long time. But was He really born then, or just how was such a date determined when no date of Jesus birth is clearly made in the Christian Bible?

Here is how the pagan origin of December 25th originated.

Nearly all aspects of Christmas observance have their roots in Roman custom and religion. Consider the following admission from a large American newspaper (The Buffalo News, Nov. 22, 1984): “The earliest reference to Christmas being marked on Dec. 25 comes from the second century after Jesus’ birth. It is considered likely the first Christmas celebrations were in reaction to the Roman Saturnalia, a harvest festival that marked the winter solstice—the return of the sun—and honored Saturn, the god of sowing. Saturnalia was a rowdy time, much opposed by the more austere leaders among the still-minority Christian sect. Christmas developed, one scholar says, as a means of replacing worship of the sun with worship of the Son. By 529 A.D., after Christianity had become the official state religion of the Roman Empire, Emperor Justinian made Christmas a civic holiday. The celebration of Christmas reached its peak—some would say its worst moments—in the medieval period when it became a time for conspicuous consumption and unequaled revelry.”

Consider these quotes from the Catholic Encyclopedia, 1911 edition, under “Christmas”: “Christmas was not among the earliest festivals of the Church…The first evidence of the feast is from Egypt.” Further, “Pagan customs centring round the January calends gravitated to Christmas.” Under “Natal Day,” Origen, an early Catholic writer, admitted, “…In the Scriptures, no one is recorded to have kept a feast or held a great banquet on his birthday. It is only sinners (like Pharaoh and Herod) who make great rejoicings over the day on which they were born into this world” (emphasis mine).

The Encyclopedia Americana, 1956 edition, adds, “Christmas…was not observed in the first centuries of the Christian church, since the Christian usage in general was to celebrate the death of remarkable persons rather than their birth…a feast was established in memory of this event [Christ’s birth] in the 4th century. In the 5th century the Western church ordered the feast to be celebrated on the day of the Mithraic rites of the birth of the sun and at the close of the Saturnalia, as no certain knowledge of the day of Christ’s birth existed.”

There is no mistaking the origin of the modern Christmas celebration. Many additional sources could be cited. It was 300 years after Christ before the Roman church kept Christmas, and not until the fifth century that it was mandated to be kept throughout the empire as an official festival honoring “Christ.”

Does the Christian Bible hold any clues as to when the actual birth of Jesus did take place?

As a matter of fact one is found in Lk.2:8, where we read, "And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby keeping watch over their flocks at night." When an angel of the Lord appeared to them announcing to them that today, in the town of David, a Savior has been born to them, who is Christ the Lord, in vs 11.

Which reveals Jesus could not have been born in the winter time on December 25th, because the shepherds could not have been tending their flocks by night during that very cold time of year.

The actual birth of Jesus has been determined in the following extensive scientific, astronomical research work as revealed in the following:

The sign of the Son of Man referred to by Jesus in Mt.24:30 is explained from what was written in Rev,12:1-2, called the "Wonderous sign in heaven." The sign of the Son of Man Jesus refers to in Mt.24:30.

The Great and Wonderous Sign -

You could say - it is the gospel in the sky. (Ps.89:5) This wonder takes place once every year at a very specific time. When Jesus was born. [The Star of Bethlehem was also involved in the astronomical phenomenon, but so far, only a one time event, and is another subject].

The woman represents a virgin with the sun amidst her body, representing her pregnancy. The moon at her feet represents the specific time frame this event takes place.

The only time of year this event can be witnessed, is in mid September to early October, at the very same time as the Autumn Equinox, as seen from the middle east, at or around the Jewish Holy Convocation - feast and festival - of Rosh Hashanah. Their New Year - which they call "a year of new beginnings." It is also the last fall feast and festival of their year which they call the "feast of trumpets." They also believe it marks the anniversary of the day God created Adam.

The woman's body is in the Constellation of Virgo (The virgin). She represents the virgin Mary, of Israel, and has a crown of twelve stars on her head - representing the twelve tribes of Israel. The sun is amid her body, signifying her pregnancy.

Her head is about 10% in the previous Constellation Leo (The Lion - of Judah) and the crescent moon is at her feet, about 10% into the Constellation Libra (The scales of righteousness and judgement).

With all the heavenly bodies in motion, this event can take place only between a time frame from 7:15 to 7:30 P.M., a 15 minute window.

So when Jesus talks about His return at His Second Advent in Mt.24:30, at the sign of the Son of Man, it will be at that specific time of year - and time frame!

For the full treatment on this outstanding story, read Dr. Ernest L. Martin, PhD., book, "The Star That Astonished The World." Which also reveals what the Star of Bethlehem was, from years of studies in the early to mid 90's, by scientists and astronomers working together on it. [Click on 'Books'].

www.askelm.com


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

Nope. Herod the Great died in 4 BC.

Astronomy and the Death of King Herod In the face of the historical evidence against it, the majority of theologians have up to now placed the birth of Jesus before the spring of 4 B.C.E. They have insisted on this early date because of a reference in Josephus that King Herod died not long after an eclipse of the Moon and before a springtime Passover of the Jews. This eclipse has become an important chronological benchmark in reckoning the year of Herod’s death.

Eclipses are powerful astronomical indicators to show the precise times when events happened in history. Even those that happened 2000 years ago can be calculated to within a few minutes of their occurrence, and if one can pick the proper lunar eclipse that Josephus referred to, then further historical inquiry is considered unnecessary because “astronomy” has settled the chronological issue.

Those theologians who adopted this astronomical principle for solving chronological questions are absolutely correct. There is no arguing with eclipses. They are solid and unchallenged witnesses to support the truth of early historical records — if the correct eclipse is considered. But when astronomers in the last century told theologians that an eclipse of the Moon occurred during the evening of March 13, 4 B.C.E. (and could be seen in Palestine), this eclipse is the one that theologians accepted as the one referred to by Josephus. They particularly preferred this eclipse because Josephus also said Herod died before a springtime Passover. Since March 13, 4 B.C.E. was just one month before the Passover, they felt justified in placing all historical events associated with Herod’s death and his funeral within that twenty-nine day period. The truth is, however, it is completely illogical to squeeze the events mentioned by Josephus into that short period of time. By selecting the wrong eclipse, modern scholars have been forced to tighten considerably the historical events into an abnormally compressed space of only twenty-nine days.

Eclipse records are very important, but they must be interpreted correctly regarding the chronological period in which they occur. Over a ten-year period, several lunar eclipses are capable of being observed in most areas of the world. Two or three can even occur in one year. This relative frequency of lunar eclipses can be a problem in identifying the ones mentioned by the ancient historians if the early historians gave no details about the time of night, the day of the week, the calendar date on which they happened, or whether the eclipses were full or partial. With the eclipse of Josephus, none of these factors is evident. Josephus gave the single clue that a springtime Passover was celebrated not long after the eclipse. This would appear a reasonable hint that the eclipse happened sometime in the early or late winter.

It is the mention of this Passover that prompted most theologians up to now to select the eclipse of March 13, 4 B.C.E. as the one that seems to meet the historical circumstances. But this is not possible. A close examination of the records provided by Josephus unearth formidable problems in accepting this eclipse. Using common sense, plus the application of a general understanding of the Jewish social and religious customs in the 1st century, will allow anyone to select the proper eclipse. In no way can it be the one of March 13, 4 B.C.E. Let us look at the lunar eclipses observable in Palestine during the general time for the nativity of Jesus. From 7 to early 1 B.C.E. there were four lunar eclipses. It is one of these four eclipses to which Josephus has reference regarding the time of the death of Herod. Let us look at them carefully. The following table shows when they happened. For reference, see Solar and Lunar Eclipses of the Ancient Near East, by M. Kudlek and E. Mickler (1971). Solar Eclipses Visible in Palestine
7 B.C. No eclipses
6 B.C. No eclipses
5 B.C. March 23. Total eclipse. Central at 8:30 pm (elapsed time between eclipse and Passover: twenty-nine days).
5 B.C. September 15. Total eclipse. Central at 10:30 pm (elapsed time between eclipse and Passover: seven months).
4 B.C. March 13. Partial eclipse. Central at 2:20 am (elapsed time between eclipse and Passover: twenty-nine days
3 B.C. No eclipses
2 B.C. No eclipses
1 B.C. January 10. Total eclipse. Central at 1:00 am (elapsed time between eclipse and Passover: twelve and a half weeks ).
Which was the eclipse that was associated with Herod’s death? Most theologians have picked the one that occurred on March 13, 4 B.C.E., but they are clearly three years too early. They have thrown to the wind the testimonies of the majority of the early fathers of the Christian Church who placed the birth of Jesus from 3 to 1 B.C.E. If those early fathers would have been consulted and given a reasonable amount of credibility (which they deserve), then Herod’s death would have been sought for somewhere around 1 B.C.E., not three years earlier as is commonly done today.

We have new historical documentation quite independent of the early Christian fathers or Josephus showing that Herod died in early 1 B.C.E. Later chapters of this book will demonstrate what those historical documents and what new archaeological discoveries indicate to prove the documents. This evidence, along with that given by Josephus, will provide a great deal of evidence to show the eclipse mentioned by Josephus was that of January 10, 1 B.C.E. This gives us a veritable key to open the door of understanding for this obscure period of time. When this is realized the “dark decade” in Roman history from 6 B.C.E. to 4 C.E. will also take on a great deal of illumination. Confusing historical events, which have been and appear contradictory to historians of the early part of the Roman Empire, will become harmonious and consistent.

So much depends on selecting the proper eclipse mentioned by Josephus. Let us look at the evidence from Josephus, which is the eyewitness account of Nicolas of Damascus whom Josephus quotes. His records prove that the eclipse of March 13, 4 B.C.E. (almost universally accepted) cannot be the correct one.

From: www.askelm.com


Quasar92

 

[Kenny'sID]

When this came around a few weeks ago, I argued there were more than twelve stars above her head. It's as if the creator of this just discounted the other stars and chose to claim there were only 12.

So if that's a fact and this "sign" floating around is supposed to be the truth, can someone please explain why all the stars weren't counted?

They are all shown in the video posted on this thread. Start at about 4:45, see the artwork excluding the extra stars, then when they remove the artwork, keep watching for a few minutes, the extra stars are right there.

 

[AFrazier]

Astronomy and the Death of King Herod In the face of the historical evidence against it, the majority of theologians have up to now placed the birth of Jesus before the spring of 4 B.C.E. They have insisted on this early date because of a reference in Josephus that King Herod died not long after an eclipse of the Moon and before a springtime Passover of the Jews. This eclipse has become an important chronological benchmark in reckoning the year of Herod’s death.

Eclipses are powerful astronomical indicators to show the precise times when events happened in history. Even those that happened 2000 years ago can be calculated to within a few minutes of their occurrence, and if one can pick the proper lunar eclipse that Josephus referred to, then further historical inquiry is considered unnecessary because “astronomy” has settled the chronological issue.

Those theologians who adopted this astronomical principle for solving chronological questions are absolutely correct. There is no arguing with eclipses. They are solid and unchallenged witnesses to support the truth of early historical records — if the correct eclipse is considered. But when astronomers in the last century told theologians that an eclipse of the Moon occurred during the evening of March 13, 4 B.C.E. (and could be seen in Palestine), this eclipse is the one that theologians accepted as the one referred to by Josephus. They particularly preferred this eclipse because Josephus also said Herod died before a springtime Passover. Since March 13, 4 B.C.E. was just one month before the Passover, they felt justified in placing all historical events associated with Herod’s death and his funeral within that twenty-nine day period. The truth is, however, it is completely illogical to squeeze the events mentioned by Josephus into that short period of time. By selecting the wrong eclipse, modern scholars have been forced to tighten considerably the historical events into an abnormally compressed space of only twenty-nine days.

Eclipse records are very important, but they must be interpreted correctly regarding the chronological period in which they occur. Over a ten-year period, several lunar eclipses are capable of being observed in most areas of the world. Two or three can even occur in one year. This relative frequency of lunar eclipses can be a problem in identifying the ones mentioned by the ancient historians if the early historians gave no details about the time of night, the day of the week, the calendar date on which they happened, or whether the eclipses were full or partial. With the eclipse of Josephus, none of these factors is evident. Josephus gave the single clue that a springtime Passover was celebrated not long after the eclipse. This would appear a reasonable hint that the eclipse happened sometime in the early or late winter.

It is the mention of this Passover that prompted most theologians up to now to select the eclipse of March 13, 4 B.C.E. as the one that seems to meet the historical circumstances. But this is not possible. A close examination of the records provided by Josephus unearth formidable problems in accepting this eclipse. Using common sense, plus the application of a general understanding of the Jewish social and religious customs in the 1st century, will allow anyone to select the proper eclipse. In no way can it be the one of March 13, 4 B.C.E. Let us look at the lunar eclipses observable in Palestine during the general time for the nativity of Jesus. From 7 to early 1 B.C.E. there were four lunar eclipses. It is one of these four eclipses to which Josephus has reference regarding the time of the death of Herod. Let us look at them carefully. The following table shows when they happened. For reference, see Solar and Lunar Eclipses of the Ancient Near East, by M. Kudlek and E. Mickler (1971). Solar Eclipses Visible in Palestine
7 B.C. No eclipses
6 B.C. No eclipses
5 B.C. March 23. Total eclipse. Central at 8:30 pm (elapsed time between eclipse and Passover: twenty-nine days).
5 B.C. September 15. Total eclipse. Central at 10:30 pm (elapsed time between eclipse and Passover: seven months).
4 B.C. March 13. Partial eclipse. Central at 2:20 am (elapsed time between eclipse and Passover: twenty-nine days
3 B.C. No eclipses
2 B.C. No eclipses
1 B.C. January 10. Total eclipse. Central at 1:00 am (elapsed time between eclipse and Passover: twelve and a half weeks ).
Which was the eclipse that was associated with Herod’s death? Most theologians have picked the one that occurred on March 13, 4 B.C.E., but they are clearly three years too early. They have thrown to the wind the testimonies of the majority of the early fathers of the Christian Church who placed the birth of Jesus from 3 to 1 B.C.E. If those early fathers would have been consulted and given a reasonable amount of credibility (which they deserve), then Herod’s death would have been sought for somewhere around 1 B.C.E., not three years earlier as is commonly done today.

We have new historical documentation quite independent of the early Christian fathers or Josephus showing that Herod died in early 1 B.C.E. Later chapters of this book will demonstrate what those historical documents and what new archaeological discoveries indicate to prove the documents. This evidence, along with that given by Josephus, will provide a great deal of evidence to show the eclipse mentioned by Josephus was that of January 10, 1 B.C.E. This gives us a veritable key to open the door of understanding for this obscure period of time. When this is realized the “dark decade” in Roman history from 6 B.C.E. to 4 C.E. will also take on a great deal of illumination. Confusing historical events, which have been and appear contradictory to historians of the early part of the Roman Empire, will become harmonious and consistent.

So much depends on selecting the proper eclipse mentioned by Josephus. Let us look at the evidence from Josephus, which is the eyewitness account of Nicolas of Damascus whom Josephus quotes. His records prove that the eclipse of March 13, 4 B.C.E. (almost universally accepted) cannot be the correct one.

From: www.askelm.com


Quasar92

It might be wise in the future to specify at the beginning rather than the end where you're getting the text from. You presented it as your own, but I recognized it as Ernest Martin right away.

Suffice it to say, Martin is mistaken. The siege at Samosata in 38 BCE is a definitive landmark in the chronology. It can be dated beyond any question. It is the same year as Herod's third year of reign from the time he was made king by the Romans, making his fourth year 37 BCE.

For a 1 BCE death of Herod to be possible, his dual reigns can't start in 40 and 37. They have to start later. But they don't. And because they don't, 1 BCE is absolutely impossible.

 

[Quasar92]

When this came around a few weeks ago, I argued there were more than twelve stars above her head. It's as if the creator of this just discounted the other stars and chose to claim there were only 12.

So if that's a fact and this "sign" floating around is supposed to be the truth, can someone please explain why all the stars weren't counted?

They are all shown in the video posted on this thread. Start at about 4:45, see the artwork excluding the extra stars, then when they remove the artwork, keep watching for a few minutes, the extra stars are right there.

The team of astronomers and scientists who spent several years researchingfor what the star of Bethlehem was in the early to mid 90's, they indicated the woman in the great wonder in the sky, of Rev,12:1-2, has a twelve star crown, in the book, called "The Star That Astonished The World," by Ernest L. Martin, PhD, who was a former astronomer himself.


Quasar92

 

[AFrazier]

The team of astronomers and scientists who spent several years researchingfor what the star of Bethlehem was in the early to mid 90's, they indicated the woman in the great wonder in the sky, of Rev,12:1-2, has a twelve star crown, in the book, called "The Star That Astonished The World," by Ernest L. Martin, PhD, who was a former astronomer himself.


Quasar92

It is worth noting that while only twelve stars are mentioned, there are also only two constellations mentioned. The point is the signs being offered, which serve as not only a potentially literal sign, but also an analogous one as well. Virgo and Hydra, the virgin and the seven-headed dragon, Virgo with the sun mid-body and the moon at her feet. A can buy that this is a horoscope chart of sorts. But the woman, the sun, the moon, and the stars are also an obvious parallel to Joseph's dream in Genesis. The woman could also be a possible parallel to Israel in Isaiah 26:17-27:1, who is like a woman with child, drawing near to the time of her delivery. This is followed by a resurrection and the punishment of the dragon.

In short, there is no absolute correct interpretation of this passage. They all fit.

 

[Quasar92]

It is worth noting that while only twelve stars are mentioned, there are also only two constellations mentioned. The point is the signs being offered, which serve as not only a potentially literal sign, but also an analogous one as well. Virgo and Hydra, the virgin and the seven-headed dragon, Virgo with the sun mid-body and the moon at her feet. A can buy that this is a horoscope chart of sorts. But the woman, the sun, the moon, and the stars are also an obvious parallel to Joseph's dream in Genesis. The woman could also be a possible parallel to Israel in Isaiah 26:17-27:1, who is like a woman with child, drawing near to the time of her delivery. This is followed by a resurrection and the punishment of the dragon.

In short, there is no absolute correct interpretation of this passage. They all fit.

I beg to differ with you. It has been a well researched and studied subject by a team of astronomers and scientists in the early to mid 90's who discovered what the Star of Bethlehem was as well as the birth of Jesus. Review the following:

The Birth of Jesus and the Day of Trumpets

The historical evidence I have presented in this book shows that Jesus was born in the year 3 B.C.E. It appears most probable that a late summer birth in 3 B.C.E. has the best credentials. I need not rehearse my reasons for this, but they are very strong. Indeed, the evidence from the priestly courses alone suggests that a September nativity is the most likely. This gives a pretty close approximation that most scholars would probably accept as reasonable. But now, we come to the nitty-gritty! To propose an early evening birth on September 11, 3 B.C.E. appears almost impossible to believe. To get that close to his time of birth might at first seem to be fanciful.

The fact is, however, I can state without a shadow of a doubt, that the celestial scene described by the apostle John in Revelation 12:1-5, if viewed astronomically, would center precisely on a New Moon date within mid-September, and that in 3 B.C.E. that exact celestial phenomenon would have occurred in the early evening of September 11th. I can also state with assurance that sundown on September 11, 3 B.C.E. was also the beginning of the Jewish New Year (Rosh ha-Shanah ― The Day of Trumpets).

Even if the apostle John were only giving the symbolic time for Jesus' nativity, and not the actual, we are provided with a great deal of insight on how early Christians interpreted significant periods of time on the holy calendar of Israel. If Jesus were actually born onRosh ha-Shanah (the Day of Trumpets) in 3 B.C.E., a most impressive astronomical panorama of events burst forth on the scene that would have awed and astonished most Jewish people who lived at the time. Truly, this is not an exaggeration.

The Importance of the Day of Trumpets

Look at the celestial events that occurred around that Rosh ha-Shanah date of September 11th in 3 B.C.E. Exactly one month before (on August 12) the world would have witnessed the close conjunction of Jupiter (reckoned astrologically as the Father) and Venus (the Mother) when they were only .07 degrees from one another when they appeared as morning stars on the eastern horizon. This was a very close union. But then, nineteen days later (August 31), Venus came to within .36 degrees of Mercury in a very similar astronomical display.

Then, on September 11th, the New Moon occurred which represented the Jewish New Year. This happened when Jupiter (the King planet) was then approaching Regulus (the King star). And, on September 14, Jupiter and Regulus came to their first of three conjunctions in this extraordinary year. Then, over an eight month period, Jupiter made its "crowning effect" over the King star Regulus. There could hardly have been a better astronomical testimony to the birth of the new messianic king from the Jewish point of view. Why? Because every one of these celestial occurrences I have mentioned happened with the Sun or planets being positioned within the constellation of Leo the Lion (the constellation of Judah - from whence the Messiah was destined to emerge) or in Virgo the Virgin. The apostle John may have seen importance in these extraordinary occurrences when he symbolically showed that Jesus was born at the New Moon of Tishri, the Day of Trumpets (Revelation 12:1-3).

What we now need to do is to rehearse some of the typical and figurative features of the biblical accounts associated with this particular day. They may well reveal why John and early Christians looked on Jesus as the Christ and the king of the universe. The Day of Trumpets was a special day that symbolically showed this rule.

Jesus Was Born on the Day of Trumpets

If one can realize that the New Testament shows Jesus born on the Day of Trumpets (the first day of Tishri ― the start of the Jewish civil year) an impressive amount of symbolic features emerge on the biblical and prophetic scenes. Before the period of the Exodus in the time of Moses, this was the day that began the biblical year. It also looks like this was the day when people were advanced one year of life ― no matter at what month of the year they were actually born.

Notice that the patriarch Noah became 600 years of age "in the first month [Tishri], the first day of the month [later to be called the Day of Trumpets]" (Genesis 8:13). That was the very day when "Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry" (v. 13). This was not only Noah's official birthday, it became a new birth after the Flood for the earth as well.

There is more. Even the first day of creation mentioned in Genesis 1:1-5 could be reckoned as being this very day. The early Jews discussed whether the actual creation took place in spring or in autumn. But since the autumn commenced all biblical years before the Exodus (Exodus 12:2), and since all the fruit was then on the trees ready for Adam and Eve to eat (Genesis 1:29; 2:9, 16-17), it suggests that the month of Tishri was the creation month, beginning near the autumn. If so, then the first day of creation mentioned in Genesis was also the first of Tishri (at least, Moses no doubt intended to give that impression). This means that not only was this the birthday of the new earth in Noah's day and what was later to become the Day of Trumpets on the Mosaic calendar, but it was also the day which ushered in the original creation of the heavens and the earth.

As shown before, among the Jews this day was called Rosh ha-Shanah (the Feast of the New Year). The majority belief of Jewish elders (which still dominates the services of the synagogues) was that the Day of Trumpets was the memorial day that commemorated the beginning of the world. Authorized opinion prevailed that the first of Tishri was the first day of Genesis 1:1-5. It "came to be regarded as the birthday of the world." 1 It was even more than an anniversary of the physical creation. The Jewish historian Theodor H. Gaster states,

"Judaism regards New Year's Day not merely as an anniversary of creation ― but more importantly ― as a renewal of it. This is when the world is reborn." 2

Gaster's insight is so germane to the interpretation of the significance of biblical festivals that I will be referring to his research several times in my following references.

When Was the "Last Trump"?

The matter does not stop there. Each of the Jewish months was officially introduced by the blowing of trumpets (Numbers 10:10). Since the festival year in which all the Mosaic festivals were found was seven months long, the last month (Tishri) was the last month for a festival trumpet. This is one of the reasons that the day was called "the Day of Trumpets." The last trump in the seven months' series was always sounded on this New Moon day. This made it the final trumpets' day (Leviticus 23:24; Numbers 29:1).

This was the exact day that many of the ancient kings and rulers of Judah reckoned as their inauguration day of rule. This procedure was followed consistently in the time of Solomon, Jeremiah, and Ezra 3 The Day of Trumpets was also acknowledged as the time for counting the years of their kingly rule. Indeed, it was customary that the final ceremony in the coronation of kings was the blowing of trumpets.

For Solomon,

"Blow ye the trumpet, and say, 'God save king Solomon'" (1 Kings 1:34).

For Jehu, "And [they] blew with trumpets, saying, 'Jehu is king'" (2 Kings 9:13).

At the enthronement of Jehoash, "The people of the land rejoiced, and blew with trumpets" (2 Kings 11:11).

There could well be a reflection of this symbolic feature in the New Testament. The Day of Trumpets was the time for the start of the seventh month (since the time of Moses), and the time for the "last trump" to introduce festival months. Note that in the Book of Revelation, we have the record of a heavenly angel who will blow the seventh and last trumpet blast. And recall what happens at the exact time this "last trump" is sounded.

"And the seventh angel sounded [blew the last trump]; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever [for the ages of the ages].' Revelation 11:15

In New Testament parlance this shows the time of the coronation of Jesus, and it happens at the seventh (or last) trump in the Book of Revelation ― the Day of Trumpets.

Further Significance of the Day of Trumpets

The early Jews also recognized that the Day of Trumpets was a memorial day for considering those who had died. It was not a simple type of "Memorial Day" that we moderns are accustomed to. Gaster said it was a symbolic time when "the dead return to rejoin their descendants at the beginning of the year." 4 Such a day was a time when Israel would rally to the call of God for the inauguration of God's kingdom on earth. Gaster also states this was the time that became "a symbol of the Last Trump." 5 Since the apostle Paul was Jewish, it is possible that his reference to the "Last Trump" and the resurrection from the dead was also connected with the same biblical theme. The "Last Trump" of the early Jews was when the dead were remembered. To Paul the "Last Trump" was the time for Jesus' second advent and the resurrection of the dead (1 Corinthians 15:52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16).

Truly, the Day of Trumpets theme is that of kingship. There may even be a reference to this in the elevation of the patriarch Joseph to kingship on this New Moon day which began the month of Tishri. Notice that he had been in a dungeon for "two full years" (Genesis 41:1). It was not simply a two year period which Moses was intending, but the passage oftwo full years. The implication is that the story of Joseph's rise to kingship happened on a New Year's Day. This is manifest in Psalm 81, a New Year's psalm commemorating Joseph's royal enthronement (Genesis 41:40). As with Jesus, in Revelation 11:15, the kingdoms of the world became Joseph's on the day intended for coronations ― the day that later became the Day of Trumpets. Of course, Pharaoh retained top leadership, but as the New Testament shows, God the Father still maintains supreme rule over Jesus even when Jesus is prophesied to rule the kingdoms of this world.

The Crowning of Kings

As we have shown from the Bible, the blowing of trumpets was the sign that kings could then begin to rule (1 Kings 1:34; 2 Kings 9:13; 11:11). Jewish authorities long acknowledged this royal import to the Day of Trumpets. Gaster states, "The Sovereignty of God is a dominant theme of the occasion [and] it is one of the cardinal features of New Year's Day." 6 The main issue that prevailed in the significance of the day was the triumph of God as a king over all the forces of evil. The symbolic motif of the Day of Trumpets, as Gaster shows, was God

"continually fighting His way to the Kingdom, continually asserting His dominion, and continually enthroning Himself as sovereign of creation. At New Year when the world was annually reborn that sovereignty was evinced anew." 7

The theological thrust of the early Jews within their synagogue services for the Day of Trumpets was the fact that God rules over all and that he is the King of kings. On Trumpets it was common to quote Zechariah 14:16. "The king, the Lord of hosts." Indeed, some scholars have suggested that psalms which begin "Yahweh is become king [or 'The Lord reigns']" (Psalm 93 and 97) were originally designed for recitation at the New Year festival." 8 Recent study shows this to be true. It is postulated by many scholars that in Israel, Yahweh was crowned annually at the "New Year feast of Yahweh." The scholar Mowinckel has argued that the "enthronement psalms" (Psalms 47, 93, 96-99) in which Yahweh reigns were a part of the liturgy of the ancient synagogues. 9 There is no doubt that this is true. This was also the very day when Jesus was born.

Jesus as the King of Kings

The central theme of the Day of Trumpets is clearly that of enthronement of the great King of kings. This was the general understanding of the day in early Judaism and it is certainly that of the New Testament. In Revelation 11:15, recall that the seventh angel sounds his "last trump" and the kingdoms of this world become those of Jesus. This happens at a time when a woman is seen in heaven with twelve stars around her head and the Sun mid-bodied to her, with the Moon under her feet. This is clearly a New Moon scene for the Day of Trumpets.

And note: Professor Thorley who reviewed the first edition of my work has shown that there are exactly twelve stars surrounding the head of Virgo as we see them from earth. And indeed there are. If one will look at Norton's Star Atlas, twelve visible stars will be seen around Virgo's head. They are (according to astronomical terminology): (1) Pi, (2)Nu, (3) Beta (near the ecliptic), (4) Sigma, (5) Chi, (6) Iota - these six stars form the southern hemisphere around the head of Virgo. Then there are (7) Theta, (8) Star 60, (9)Delta, (10) Star 93, (11) Beta (the 2nd magnitude star) and (12) Omicron - these last six form the northern hemisphere around the head of Virgo. All these stars are visible and could have been witnessed by observers on earth.

Thus, the description of the apostle John describes a perfectly normal heavenly scene that could be recognized by all people. Here was Virgo with twelve stars around her head, while the Sun was in uterine position and the Moon under her feet. And again, the only time this could have occurred in 3 B.C.E. was on the Day of Trumpets. This is when the "king of kings" was born.

Another explanation of the Twelve Stars around the head of Virgo is that it represents the headship position (the "head" of Virgo is situated in the last ten degrees of Leo) for the beginning of the story found within the Twelve Constellations as reckoned in the biblical Zodiac. In the biblical Zodiac, the tribe of Judah (the Lion, or Leo) was situated around the Tabernacle directly east of its entrance. This meant that half of the tribe of Judah was south and the other half north of the east/west line from the Holy of Holies through the court of Israel and then eastward through the camp of Israel (in this case, Judah) to encounter the altar outside the camp where the Red Heifer was burnt to ashes. This means, unlike some Gentile reckonings which started their zodiacal story with the zero line between Cancer and Leo (that is, at the very commencement of Leo), the biblical Zodiac that Drs. Bullinger and Seiss were talking about began with the 15th degree of Leo (of Judah). This signifies that the first constellation to be met with in this celestial story would have been the "head" of Virgo the Virgin which occupied the last ten degrees of Leo. So, John began his story at this point.

By: Ernest L. Martin, PhD.

For the complete article: http://askelm.com/star/star008.htm


Quasar92