Jesus was begotten by the Father

disciple Clint

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Jesus could do no miracles until He received the Holy Spirit, and He then used the power of the Holy Spirit to heal the sick and raise the dead.

I gave you the text. Acts 10:38 says Jesus did miracles through the Father anointing Him with the Holy Spirit and Dunamis power.

Stephen also did great miracles among the people because he was full of faith and Dunamis power.

I’m not confusing anything. Jesus has two natures, and He set aside all of His divine power and glory to take on human flesh and have those two nature’s.

I believe scripture, and don’t try to explain away His Kenosis. Between His human birth and resurrection, Jesus had none of His power or glory as God.
OK maybe you will believe this. "Those physical healings were vivid displays of both Jesus’ power and His compassion. They were proof of His deity and living demonstrations of His divine authority. They established His unlimited ability to liberate anyone and everyone from the bondage, the penalty, and the consequences of sin. As such, the healing ministry of Jesus was illustrative of the gospel message, a true expression of divine compassion, and a definitive verification of His messianic credentials." Jesus was proving that He was God, He kept telling people He was God and demonstrating it, which is why the Jewish leaders wanted to kill him. Why Did Jesus Heal?
 
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Neogaia777

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What do any of you guys make of these scriptures...?


2 John 1:3
3 "Grace, mercy, and peace will be with you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love."

John 17:3
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

1 Corinthians 8:5-7
5 "For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords),"
6 "yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live."
7 "However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled."

"Of whom are all things, and then through whom were all things", etc...

Ephesians 1:3
3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ."

Ephesians 4:4-6
4 "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

"One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

1 John 4:12-15
12 "No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us."
13 "By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit."
14 "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world."
15 "Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God."

1 John 4:2-3
2 "By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,"
3 "and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world."

1 John 5:20
20 "And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life."

"We are in Him who is True in His Son Jesus Christ, that One is the True God and (the true source of) eternal life, etc...

1 John 5:12-13
12 "He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life."
13 "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God."

Colossians 1:15-16
15 "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him."

Romans 1:20
20 "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,"

1 Timothy 1:17
17 "Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen."

2 John 1:8-11
8 "Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward."
9 "Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son."
10 "If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him;
11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds."

Revelation 22:18-19
18 "For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

Matthew 11:27
27 "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."

John 14:28
28 "You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I am."

"For My Father is greater than I am", etc...

John 10:29
29 "My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

"My Father is greater than all", etc...

John 20:17
17 "Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God."

"Jesus was on His way there to where the Father is/always was.", etc...

1 Corinthians 8:6-7
6 "Yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live."
7 "However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled."

"Of whom are all things, and then through whom were all things", etc...

Ephesians 4:4-6
4 "[There is] one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all."

"One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

Matthew 28:19
“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

Philippians 2:11
11 "and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

1 Corinthians 3:23
23 "And you are Christ's, and Christ is God's."

Ephesians 1:17
17 "that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him."


How do you reconcile them...?

I think some of the knowledge of the "True Trinity" was "lost", etc...?

And that many consider it even "blasphemy" now to even speak of it, etc...?

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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What do any of you guys make of these scriptures...?


2 John 1:3
3 "Grace, mercy, and peace will be with you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love."

John 17:3
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

1 Corinthians 8:5-7
5 "For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords),"
6 "yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live."
7 "However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled."

"Of whom are all things, and then through whom were all things", etc...

Ephesians 1:3
3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ."

Ephesians 4:4-6
4 "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

"One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

1 John 4:12-15
12 "No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us."
13 "By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit."
14 "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world."
15 "Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God."

1 John 4:2-3
2 "By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,"
3 "and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world."

1 John 5:20
20 "And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life."

"We are in Him who is True in His Son Jesus Christ, that One is the True God and (the true source of) eternal life, etc...

1 John 5:12-13
12 "He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life."
13 "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God."

Colossians 1:15-16
15 "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him."

Romans 1:20
20 "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,"

1 Timothy 1:17
17 "Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen."

2 John 1:8-11
8 "Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward."
9 "Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son."
10 "If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him;
11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds."

Revelation 22:18-19
18 "For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

Matthew 11:27
27 "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."

John 14:28
28 "You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I am."

"For My Father is greater than I am", etc...

John 10:29
29 "My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

"My Father is greater than all", etc...

John 20:17
17 "Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God."

"Jesus was on His way there to where the Father is/always was.", etc...

1 Corinthians 8:6-7
6 "Yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live."
7 "However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled."

"Of whom are all things, and then through whom were all things", etc...

Ephesians 4:4-6
4 "[There is] one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all."

"One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

Matthew 28:19
“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

Philippians 2:11
11 "and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

1 Corinthians 3:23
23 "And you are Christ's, and Christ is God's."

Ephesians 1:17
17 "that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him."


How do you reconcile them...?

I think some of the knowledge of the "True Trinity" was "lost", etc...?

And that many consider it even "blasphemy" now to even speak of it, etc...?

God Bless!

John chapter 14

14 Let not your heart be troubled: believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

4 And whither I go, ye know the way.

5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; how know we the way?

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7 If ye had known me, ye would have known my Father also: from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say unto you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me doeth his works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto the Father.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask anything in my name, that will I do.

15 If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever, 17 [even] the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth him not, neither knoweth him: ye know him; for he abideth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you desolate: I come unto you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world beholdeth me no more; but ye behold me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 In that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself unto him.

22 Judas (not Iscariot) saith unto him, Lord, what is come to pass that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my word: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my words: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent me.

25 These things have I spoken unto you, while [yet] abiding with you.

26 But the Comforter, [even] the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.

27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be fearful.

28 Ye heard how I said to you, I go away, and I come unto you. If ye loved me, ye would have rejoiced, because I go unto the Father: for the Father is greater than I.

29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe.

30 I will no more speak much with you, for the prince of the world cometh: and he hath nothing in me; 31 but that the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.


God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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What do any of you guys make of these scriptures...?


2 John 1:3
3 "Grace, mercy, and peace will be with you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love."

John 17:3
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

1 Corinthians 8:5-7
5 "For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords),"
6 "yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live."
7 "However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled."

"Of whom are all things, and then through whom were all things", etc...

Ephesians 1:3
3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ."

Ephesians 4:4-6
4 "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

"One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

1 John 4:12-15
12 "No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us."
13 "By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit."
14 "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world."
15 "Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God."

1 John 4:2-3
2 "By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,"
3 "and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world."

1 John 5:20
20 "And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life."

"We are in Him who is True in His Son Jesus Christ, that One is the True God and (the true source of) eternal life, etc...

1 John 5:12-13
12 "He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life."
13 "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God."

Colossians 1:15-16
15 "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him."

Romans 1:20
20 "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,"

1 Timothy 1:17
17 "Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen."

2 John 1:8-11
8 "Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward."
9 "Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son."
10 "If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him;
11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds."

Revelation 22:18-19
18 "For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

Matthew 11:27
27 "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."

John 14:28
28 "You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I am."

"For My Father is greater than I am", etc...

John 10:29
29 "My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

"My Father is greater than all", etc...

John 20:17
17 "Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God."

"Jesus was on His way there to where the Father is/always was.", etc...

1 Corinthians 8:6-7
6 "Yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live."
7 "However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled."

"Of whom are all things, and then through whom were all things", etc...

Ephesians 4:4-6
4 "[There is] one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all."

"One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

Matthew 28:19
“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

Philippians 2:11
11 "and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

1 Corinthians 3:23
23 "And you are Christ's, and Christ is God's."

Ephesians 1:17
17 "that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him."


How do you reconcile them...?

I think some of the knowledge of the "True Trinity" was "lost", etc...?

And that many consider it even "blasphemy" now to even speak of it, etc...?

God Bless!

John chapter 14

14 Let not your heart be troubled: believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

4 And whither I go, ye know the way.

5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; how know we the way?

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7 If ye had known me, ye would have known my Father also: from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say unto you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me doeth his works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto the Father.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask anything in my name, that will I do.

15 If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever, 17 [even] the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth him not, neither knoweth him: ye know him; for he abideth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you desolate: I come unto you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world beholdeth me no more; but ye behold me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 In that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself unto him.

22 Judas (not Iscariot) saith unto him, Lord, what is come to pass that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my word: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my words: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent me.

25 These things have I spoken unto you, while [yet] abiding with you.

26 But the Comforter, [even] the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.

27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be fearful.

28 Ye heard how I said to you, I go away, and I come unto you. If ye loved me, ye would have rejoiced, because I go unto the Father: for the Father is greater than I.

29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe.

30 I will no more speak much with you, for the prince of the world cometh: and he hath nothing in me; 31 but that the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.


God Bless!

John Chapter 10

10 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

4 When he hath put forth all his own, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

7 Jesus therefore said unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

8 All that came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

9 I am the door; by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and go out, and shall find pasture.

10 The thief cometh not, but that he may steal, and kill, and destroy: I came that they may have life, and may have [it] abundantly.

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd layeth down his life for the sheep.

12 He that is a hireling, and not a shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, beholdeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth, and the wolf snatcheth them, and scattereth [them]: 13 [he fleeth] because he is a hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

14 I am the good shepherd; and I know mine own, and mine own know me, 15 even as the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd.

17 Therefore doth the Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again.

18 No one taketh it away from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment received I from my Father.

19 There arose a division again among the Jews because of these words.

20 And many of them said, He hath a demon, and is mad; why hear ye him?

21 Others said, These are not the sayings of one possessed with a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?

22 And it was the feast of the dedication at Jerusalem: 23 it was winter; and Jesus was walking in the temple in Solomon's porch.

24 The Jews therefore came round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou hold us in suspense? If thou art the Christ, tell us plainly.

25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believe not: the works that I do in my Father's name, these bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.

29 My Father, who hath given [them] unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand.

30 I and the Father are one.

31 The Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from the Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33 The Jews answered him, For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken), 36 say ye of him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am [the] Son of God?

37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

38 But if I do them, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.

39 They sought again to take him: and he went forth out of their hand.

40 And he went away again beyond the Jordan into the place where John was at the first baptizing; and there be abode.

41 And many came unto him; and they said, John indeed did no sign: but all things whatsoever John spake of this man were true.

42 And many believed on him there.


God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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How many time have you been over the New Testament...?

And the New Testament as entire books in their entire context...?

Because I have been over it many, many times, etc...

If I did not read it, or when I was not reading it, I listened to it, and have been listening to it, as entire books, and in their complete contexts, bunches and bunches of times, etc... I even used to listen to it while I was working a lot, just to kill two birds with one stone, etc.. I honestly couldn't tell you how many times, etc... And I've also been over the Old Testament a lot too, though not quite as many times as the New, etc...

But during these times, and still during these times, I had to "wrestle with it/them" in my mind, etc, until I could finally get to where I am now, etc...

And it is a "totally different experience" when you do it this way and with entire books in their context all the way through, etc...

Now how many of you have actually done this, etc...? Or have had this kind of commitment to God's Word and/or Jesus Christ, etc...?

Because I'm betting it's not very many, etc...

I have a Love for God, and Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, and God's Word, much more than many of you can possibly know, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!
 
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Albion

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You’re erecting a straw man.
This term is getting to be much, too much, overused around here. :sigh:

I never said He gave up His divine NATURE.
I know what you said, but it amounts to the same thing. You're attempting to draw a distinction where that's not possible.

To give up or suspend essential qualities would mean giving up the fulness of his divine nature. If that were the case, it would make Christ a sort of divine-human hybrid, which the church in antiquity expressly condemned.
 
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chad kincham

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This term is getting to be much, too much, overused around here. :sigh:


I know what you said, but it amounts to the same thing. You're attempting to draw a distinction where that's not possible.

To give up or suspend essential qualities would mean giving up the fulness of his divine nature. If that were the case, it would make Christ a sort of divine-human hybrid, which the church in antiquity expressly condemned.
Nevertheless it’s clear that scripture means just what it says.

If Superman set aside his super powers for three years, it wouldn’t mean he was no longer a kryptonian.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Nevertheless it’s clear that scripture means just what it says.

If Superman set aside his super powers for three years, it wouldn’t mean he was no longer a kryptonian.

Jesus didn't "set aside His super powers". Jesus demonstrated His own divine power and authority throughout His ministry.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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What do any of you guys make of these scriptures...?


2 John 1:3
3 "Grace, mercy, and peace will be with you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love."

John 17:3
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

1 Corinthians 8:5-7
5 "For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords),"
6 "yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live."
7 "However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled."

"Of whom are all things, and then through whom were all things", etc...

Ephesians 1:3
3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ."

Ephesians 4:4-6
4 "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

"One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

1 John 4:12-15
12 "No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us."
13 "By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit."
14 "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world."
15 "Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God."

1 John 4:2-3
2 "By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,"
3 "and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world."

1 John 5:20
20 "And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life."

"We are in Him who is True in His Son Jesus Christ, that One is the True God and (the true source of) eternal life, etc...

1 John 5:12-13
12 "He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life."
13 "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God."

Colossians 1:15-16
15 "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him."

Romans 1:20
20 "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,"

1 Timothy 1:17
17 "Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen."

2 John 1:8-11
8 "Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward."
9 "Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son."
10 "If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him;
11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds."

Revelation 22:18-19
18 "For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

Matthew 11:27
27 "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."

John 14:28
28 "You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I am."

"For My Father is greater than I am", etc...

John 10:29
29 "My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

"My Father is greater than all", etc...

John 20:17
17 "Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God."

"Jesus was on His way there to where the Father is/always was.", etc...

1 Corinthians 8:6-7
6 "Yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live."
7 "However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled."

"Of whom are all things, and then through whom were all things", etc...

Ephesians 4:4-6
4 "[There is] one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all."

"One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

Matthew 28:19
“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

Philippians 2:11
11 "and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

1 Corinthians 3:23
23 "And you are Christ's, and Christ is God's."

Ephesians 1:17
17 "that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him."


How do you reconcile them...?

I think some of the knowledge of the "True Trinity" was "lost", etc...?

And that many consider it even "blasphemy" now to even speak of it, etc...?

God Bless!

Explain why you think the above passages are problematic for traditional Trinitarian theology.

No, no knowledge was lost. The council fathers who drew up the Symbols of Nicea and Constantinople were being fully informed by these Scriptures.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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How many time have you been over the New Testament...?

And the New Testament as entire books in their entire context...?

Because I have been over it many, many times, etc...

If I did not read it, or when I was not reading it, I listened to it, and have been listening to it, as entire books, and in their complete contexts, bunches and bunches of times, etc... I even used to listen to it while I was working a lot, just to kill two birds with one stone, etc.. I honestly couldn't tell you how many times, etc... And I've also been over the Old Testament a lot too, though not quite as many times as the New, etc...

But during these times, and still during these times, I had to "wrestle with it/them" in my mind, etc, until I could finally get to where I am now, etc...

And it is a "totally different experience" when you do it this way and with entire books in their context all the way through, etc...

Now how many of you have actually done this, etc...? Or have had this kind of commitment to God's Word and/or Jesus Christ, etc...?

Because I'm betting it's not very many, etc...

I have a Love for God, and Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, and God's Word, much more than many of you can possibly know, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

Twenty years ago I didn't really have a very good grasp on basic Trinitarian theology, and while I had been exposed to Scripture and had been reading it since I was a child, it wasn't until my late teenage and early adult years that I started to read it more in depth.

Over these past 20 years of study--my own personal and independent study--I am convinced that the historic and orthodox teaching of the Christian Church is the only position that is consistently faithful to the biblical and apostolic witness.

Do I think that the Apostles had a fully articulated Nicene proposition? No. Not because they believed something different than what later generations of Christians believed; but because the forces of history have necessitated Christians to constantly articulate our faith in certain ways so as to avoid false ideas.

So, for example, both the Nicenes and Arians could quote Scripture. Just like today, orthodox Christians and Jehovah's Witnesses can both quote the Bible. The key difference is that Arianism falls apart because in its attempt to preserve the distinctiveness of the Father and the Son; Arius was, for his part, trying to deny the heresy of Sabellianism (which taught that the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit were merely three different "faces" God could wear at any given time, like an actor in a play changing costumes to play different parts or roles). However, in his zeal Arius went so far as to insist that the Son must be a creature, and thus while Arius could confess that Jesus Christ, the Son, was God; he could not say that the Son was of the same Being as the Father, the Son was not uncreated and co-eternal with the Father. And that is where Arius got in trouble, and why Arianism is a problem. Because Arianism fundamentally denies the fundamental Christian belief in only one God. For the Arians, there were two Gods: the Father who is uncreated and eternal, and the Son a lesser God created by the Father as the first creation through which everything else was made.

Thus the doctrines of Arius were not just that the Son was a creature, but by asserting that the Son was a creature, Arius was also teaching that there were two Gods. Actual Arian writings bear witness to this. However, if the Son is a creature, and not eternal and uncreated God (of the same Being with the Father), then worship of the Son cannot be justified; but would amount to idolatry. And yet, the Scriptures are replete with the worship of Christ and the confession of Christ's Divinity.

How can Christ be Divine if He is a mere creature?
He can't. Rather, Christ is Divine because, from all eternity, He is Divine: He is God. He is God WITH the Father, and He is God FROM the Father; not a separate God, but the Same God. Because He is homousious.

Thus the Father is God, and the Son is God; not two Gods--but one God.

That is the confession put forward at Nicea: Jesus Christ is not a God, He is THE God. Just as the Father is THE God. The Son is "very God of very God" "begotten, not made" "of the same Being with the Father".

And for this reason the Church pronounced anathema on those who denied this article of faith, so we read in the original text of Nicea,

"But as for those who say, 'There was a time when He was not', or 'Before being born He was not', or that 'He came into existence out of nothing', or who assert that the Son of God is of a different hypostasis or substance, or created, or is subject to alteration or change--these the catholic and apostolic Church calls anathema."

The pronouncement of anathema seems harsh--and it is. Is it deserved? I believe so. Not because I think those who are heretics can't be saved or some such; but because as the Apostle says in his epistle to the Galatians, those who preach a different gospel, and those who teach a different Jesus, are called anathema. That's biblical. And it's not for nothing--rather this is a vitally important area of theology.

What we say about Jesus changes everything when it comes to what we say about what Jesus did and accomplished, and what being His followers means, everything we say about salvation, about the Church. All of it is included here.

If the Son is not true God of true God, then what we say about the Gospel isn't true. If God did not indeed become man, if God did not unite Himself with our humanity and in doing so has healed that humanity; and thus there is no basis for our union with God in Christ by the Holy Spirit any longer. If the Son is not true God of true God, then the basis of our hope, the basis of our salvation, the basis of the promise of the resurrection--all of these things cease to make sense. Which is also why the heretics have to radically redefine the meaning of all these things, and so preach manifold false gospels.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Neogaia777

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Explain why you think the above passages are problematic for traditional Trinitarian theology.

No, no knowledge was lost. The council fathers who drew up the Symbols of Nicea and Constantinople were being fully informed by these Scriptures.

-CryptoLutheran
I'm done trying to explain for now.

Peace be unto you all.

God Bless!
 
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WarriorAngel

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5For He did not subject to angels [g]the world to come, about which we are speaking. 6But someone has testified somewhere, saying,

“WHAT IS MAN, THAT YOU THINK OF HIM?

OR A SON OF MAN, THAT YOU ARE CONCERNED ABOUT HIM?

7“YOU HAVE MADE HIM [h]FOR A LITTLE WHILE LOWER THAN ANGELS;

YOU HAVE CROWNED HIM WITH GLORY AND HONORhttps://biblehub.com/nasb_/hebrews/2.htm#fn;

8YOU HAVE PUT EVERYTHING IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET.”

For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.

Jesus Briefly Humbled

9But we do see Him who was made [j]for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of His suffering death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
10For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the [k]originator of their salvation through sufferings. 11For both He who sanctifies and those who are [l]sanctified are all from one Father; for this reason He is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters, 12saying,

“I WILL PROCLAIM YOUR NAME TO MY BROTHERS,

IN THE MIDST OF THE ASSEMBLY I WILL SING YOUR PRAISE.” 13And again,

“I WILL PUT MY TRUST IN HIM.”

~NASB

God is God. To 'Create" it would not be God.
Begotten of the Father means He was eternal as the Father. God from God.
 
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Fervent

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His nature was divine, but it’s UNEQUIVOCAL He set aside all His divine attributes to leave Gods forum and take man’s form.

Period.

He had to grow in wisdom as He grew up - He had no omniscience, and He didn’t know the time He would return, saying only the Father knows.

Luk 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

He emptied Himself comes from Kenoo in the Greek, defined as:

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2758: κενόω

κενόω, κενῷ: (future κενώσω, 1 Corinthians 9:15 L text T TrWH); 1 aorist ἐκενωσα; passive, perfect κεκνωμαι; 1 aorist ἐκενωθην;
1. to empty, make empty: ἑαυτόν ἐκένωσε, namely, τοῦ εἶναιἴσα Θεῷ or τῆς μορφῆς τοῦ Θεοῦ, i. e. he laid aside equality with or the form of God (said of Christ), Philippians 2:7 (see a fuller exposition of this passage in

2. to make void i. e. deprive of force, render vain, useless, of no effect: passive, Romans 4:14; 1 Corinthians 1:17.

3. to make void i. e. cause a thing to be seen to be empty, hollow, false: τό καύχημα, 1 Corinthians 9:15; passive 2 Corinthians 9:3. (Twice in the Sept. viz. Jeremiah 14:2; Jeremiah 15:9; often in Attic writings.)


Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
empty, make void, be in vain.
From kenos; to make empty, i.e. (figuratively) to abase, neutralize, falsify -- make (of none effect, of no reputation, void), be in vain.

see GREEK kenos

Scripture is clear, despite your denial of what it says,


When He arose, He received it all back again, but He walked the earth before His resurrection as the son of man, which is what He most often called Himself, not as God.
Something you seem to be missing is God's essence is inseperable from His attributes. He is not a complex creature made up of distinctive parts, but a pure being.
 
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Fervent

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You follow your theology- I’ll follow the Bible.
I'm not following any theology except that revealed within the Bible. I'd suggest you look into the Greek used for "form" within Phlippians 2.
 
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