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Jesus vs Michael?

Discussion in 'Traditional Adventists' started by Daniel Marsh, Jun 13, 2020.

  1. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    My answer:The archangel Michael is simply who the Bible says he is. He is the archangel Michael. There's not a single verse of scripture that says the archangel Michael is Jesus Christ.

    "To which of the angels did God ever say, 'Sit at my right hand'?" -- Hebrews 1:13. Jesus could not therefore be the archangel Michael because scripture does say that Jesus will sit at the right hand of God the Father.

    "It was not to angels that he has subjected the world to come" -- Hebrews 2:5. You asked me where the Bible says that angels will not judge the world. Here it is. Because the Archangel Michael is an angel, he could not be the Ruler of the world, could he? Since Scripture says Jesus is to be the Judge and ruler, he cannot be the Archangel.

    I like the way Ken Taylor puts Hebrews 1:14 in his paraphrased Living Bible: "The angels are only spirit-messengers sent out to help and care for those who are to receive his salvation." Angels do accomplish specific tasks for Yahweh, but they do not and will not "judge" the world. That's very clear from a reading of chapters one and two of Hebrews.

    Now, as to who Jesus Christ is, here are scriptures that clearly identify Him as God:
    "The Word was God" -- John 1:1. This passage is clearly an echo of Genesis 1:1. It points to the eternal existence of "The Word" (Jesus). Eternal pre-existence is a quality which only God possesses. I like the way the New English Bible translates John 1:1: "What God was, the Word was."
    "Thomas said to him, 'My Lord and my God." -- John 20:28. Unless you want to perform weird mental gymnastics with the syntax of this statement, you have to say that Thomas was saying that Jesus was God. Thomas is not addressing two different persons. He is speaking to Jesus whom he calls both Lord and God.
    "From them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all" -- Romans 9:5. Doesn't the apostle Paul clearly identifies Christ as God in this passage?
    "In Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form" -- Colossians 2:9. If all the fullness of the Deity is in Christ, then He is Deity, isn't He? Here's how Bible scholar William Barclay translates Colossians 2:9: "It is in Christ that godhead in all its completeness dwells in bodily form."
    "But about the Son he says, 'Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever" -- Hebrews 1:8. Isn't the Son here being clearly addressed as "God"? You cannot come to any other conclusion if you correctly analyze the grammar of this sentence. Earlier in verse 7, the writer has talked about what angels are and then uses the linking word "but." Doesn't that conjunction "but" signal that the writer is no longer talking about angels (even archangels)?
    "They will call him Immanuel -- which means 'God with us'" -- Matthew 1:23. The title says "God with us." It doesn't say Jesus is "Archangel Michel with us" or "Someone who is like God with us" or "Someone who is almost God with us." It cannot be stated any more clearly than "God with us."
    "They will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive" -- Titus 2:10. "Savior" is what Jesus is called over and over again in Scripture. Take a look in the previous chapter of Titus: Titus 1:4. Or look at what is written in 2 Peter 3:18 and 1 John 4:14. We don't have two Saviors; we have one. If the Savior is Jesus, then isn't Paul here identifying him as God?
    Responses to Jehovah's Witnesses (page 6)
     
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  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Agreed... and the Angel of the Lord is who the bible says He is as well.

    the Adventist distinctive on this topic is in calling the Second Person of the Godhead (who is in fact infinite God) - by the Bible names/titles, Jesus, Angel of the Lord, Michael etc. so that is various names.. but the same divine person, infinite God.. second member of the Trinity..
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2020
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Just as most Bible scholars assert that the "Angel of the Lord" is the pre-incarnate Christ.
    ===================================== not BobRyan
    Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary
    by Bob McCabe
    http://dbts.edu/blog/author/rmccabe/

    "The issue for us concerns whether this term can refer to the infinite supernatural Being, God. In order to prove that this term can refer to God, we will need to examine when it is used in connection with the phrase “of the LORD.” While this expression is used thirty-nine times in the Old Testament, we will examine two of these.

    Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary - author Bob McCabe
    Example 1

    Ex 3:1-2 Now Moses was pasturing the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian; and he led the flock to the west side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 The angel of the Lord appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed.

    "The first passage is found in Exodus 3:1–14. While tending the flock of his father-in-law at Horeb, Moses saw that a burning bush was not being consumed by the fire. As he approached the bush, v. 2 clearly states that the angel of the LORD appeared to him in the flames of the bush. It is stated in v. 4 that the LORD spoke to him from within the bush. In v. 6 the Being in the bush further identifies that He was the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. As the conversation continues between these two, the Being in the bush announces His name, “I AM WHO I AM” (v. 14). Thus, this passage indicates that the angel of the LORD mentioned in v. 2 is clearly identified by Himself and accepted by Moses as the infinite God.

    Example 2

    Zechariah 3:1–10... the antecedent of “he” is the interpreting angel (he is referred to in 1:9, 14, 19; 2:3; 4:1, 3, 5; etc.; in light of 1:9 the interpreting angel was apparently present to explain some of the details of these visions to Zechariah), the antecedent of “me” is Zechariah, the angel of the LORD, and Satan. In this verse Joshua is described as standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan is pictured as standing at the right hand of the angel of the LORD to resist him. With this introduction to the vision we should note that the angel of the LORD is the focal point around which the following context revolves.

    "The first half of v. 2 reads like this: “The LORD said to Satan, ‘The LORD rebuke you, Satan!’” In light of the participants mentioned in v. 1, we could read this verse in this fashion: “And the LORD, that is the angel of the LORD, said unto Satan, ‘The LORD rebuke you, Satan.’” Therefore, v. 2 identifies the angel of the LORD as the LORD and indicates that there is a distinction between the angel of the LORD and the LORD. This identification is further substantiated in v. 4. If we follow the context of vv. 2–4 carefully, we should notice that it is the angel of the LORD who forgives sin in v. 4. Since God is the only one who forgives sin, it is readily apparent that the angel of the LORD is God. Consequently, this passage provides solid support for both the deity of the angel of the LORD and his distinctiveness from the LORD.

    Who is both deity and yet a distinct person from the LORD? Since no one has ever seen God the Father (John 1:18; 1 Tim 6:16) and since the Holy Spirit never takes on bodily form, this suggests that the supernatural Being to which this expression refers is the second member of the Trinity (also compare Exod 3:14 with John 8:58). Therefore, the angel of the LORD was a temporary manifestation of the LORD Jesus Christ in a preincarnate form
    "
    ===========================

    Even so - the SDA denomination has no doctrinal statements on who Michael is - we just have the doctrinal statements in our "28 Fundamental Beliefs" regarding the Trinity -- the Godhead and Christ as the second person of the Godhead.[/QUOTE]

    As for the scholarship agreeing with Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary - author Bob McCabe

    Some examples:

    Friday at 10:53 PM #19

    ...


    Adam Clarke Commentary

    Exodus 3 Verse 2

    The angel of the Lord - Not a created angel certainly; for he is called יהוה Jehovah, Exodus 3:4, etc., and has the most expressive attributes of the Godhead applied to him, Exodus 3:14, etc. Yet he is an angel, מלאך malach, a messenger, in whom was the name of God, Exodus 23:21; and in whom dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, Colossians 2:9; and who, in all these primitive times, was the Messenger of the covenant, Malachi 3:1. And who was this but Jesus, the Leader, Redeemer, and Savior of mankind? See Clarke's note on Genesis 16:7.

    =================


    James Burton Coffman
    Ex 3 Verse 2-3

    "And the angel of Jehovah appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. And Moses said, I will turn aside now, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt."

    "The angel of Jehovah ..." As the context proves, "The Angel of Jehovah is not a created angel but Jehovah himself in his act of self-revelation."[10] This is merely another name for God, of which there are many in the Bible. Although this verse does not indicate it, there is reason to believe that the Angel of Jehovah should be identified with our Lord Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Godhead; he is also called the Angel of the Covenant.[11]


    =================================
    Jamieson Fausset Brown

    Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible

    Verse 2-3


    the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire — It is common in Scripture to represent the elements and operations of nature, as winds, fires, earthquakes, pestilence, everything enlisted in executing the divine will, as the “angels” or messengers of God. But in such cases God Himself is considered as really, though invisibly, present. Here the preternatural fire may be primarily meant by the expression “angel of the Lord”; but it is clear that under this symbol, the Divine Being was present, whose name is given (Exodus 3:4, Exodus 3:6), and elsewhere called the angel of the covenant, Jehovah-Jesus.


    ===================================
    I think we can all agree that none of those Bible scholars were following Ellen White to make their statements or take their positions on this subject. So we cannot blame her for positions they take.

    Nor can we "blame me" for positions those scholars take.
    Albert Barnes Commentary

    =========================================

    So then two opinions --

    here is one -


    Albert Barnes Commentary

    Exodus 3
    Ex 3:1-2 Now Moses was pasturing the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian; and he led the flock to the west side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 The angel of the Lord appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed.

    vs 2
    What Moses saw was the flame of fire in the bush; what he recognized therein was an intimation of the presence of God, who maketh a flame of fire His angel. Compare Psalm 104:4. The words which Moses heard were those of God Himself, as all ancient and most modern divines have held, manifested in the Person of the Son


    =========== and here is another one


    I ran out of time quoting so many of them that do not share your view after I got to

    Albert Barnes
    James Burton Coffman
    Adam Clarke Commentary
    Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary Bob McCabe

    R.C.Sproul
    The Angel of the LORD
    Verse 7 tells us “the angel of the Lord” found Hagar at the spring. This angel is no mere messenger of God, even though royal messengers in those days were treated with the same respect as the sender. When the angel of the Lord appears elsewhere in Scripture, people fall down in worship (see Judg. 6:22–24). After seeing the angel, Hagar addresses him as God (Gen. 16:13). This angel appeared mainly during the period recounted in Genesis and Judges, and, while the New Testament does not explicitly identify the angel with the Son of God, many in church history have identified this messenger as the pre-incarnate Christ.


    "The point" is that these folks are not saying this "because Ellen White told them to say it" -- as I am sure we all agree.

    And I think Albert Barnes' statement above is correct as even your own scenarios include one where the Angel of the Lord is in fact God - speaking to Moses.
    ==============================================


    ==================

    so that's
    Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary - author Bob McCabe

    Albert Barnes
    James Burton Coffman
    Adam Clarke Commentary
    Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary Bob McCabe
    -- and R.C.Sproul

    ]



    The point was not to get you to call God the Son "Michael" rather it was to show that our difference is that you accept "Angel of the Lord" as God the Son (as did Ellen White) - but she also accepted that "Michael" is yet another name for that same concept for God the Son as the "Angel of the Lord" - and you do not. Which is fine of course... differences do exist.
     
  4. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    First and foremost ... Jesus is not a created being.

    The name Michael means one who is like God.

    The word angel means messenger.

    The word angel sometimes refers to the celestial host who ARE indeed a different kind of created being(s). Again ... Jesus is not a created being.

    However ...

    The word angel is also used referring to the divine in Exodus and other verses

    Who is the angel in Exodus 3? This is Jesus.

    There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up (Exodus 3: 2).

    The angel explained who He was.

    He said further, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God (Exodus 3:6).

    Yet the angel of the LORD had authority to forgive sins (Exodus 23:21).

    Others ...

    I am going to send an angel in front of you, to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared. Be attentive to him and listen to his voice; do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression; for my name is in him. But if you listen attentively to his voice and do all that I say, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and a foe to your foes. When my angel goes in front of you, and brings you to the Amorites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites, and I blot them out (Exodus 23:20-23).

    The Israelites were told that they must obey this angel because the name of the LORD was in him. Since God would never share His name with any created being, this angel must be God Himself.

    Isaiah the prophet wrote.

    I am the LORD, that is My name; My glory I give to no other, nor My praise to idols (Isaiah 42:8).

    Since God will not share His name or glory with anyone else, this angel must be God.

    when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing opposite him with his sword drawn in his hand, and Joshua went to him and said to him, "Are you for us or for our adversaries?" And he said, "No, rather I indeed come now as captain of the host of the LORD." And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and bowed down, and said to him, "What has my lord to say to his servant?" And the captain of the LORD's host said to Joshua, "Remove your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy." And Joshua did so (Joshua 5:13-15).

    Having Joshua immediately remove his sandals reminds one of the LORD telling Moses to remove his sandals in God's presence at the burning bush.

    Gideon was a man who was called by God to raise an army to defeat the innumerable Midianites. Because Gideon was a timid person, God paid him a visit to assure him that all would go well. After the encounter Gideon exclaimed:

    Then Gideon perceived that it was the angel of the LORD; and Gideon said, "Help me, Lord GOD! For I have seen the angel of the LORD face to face." But the LORD said to him, "Peace be to you; do not fear, you shall not die" (Judges 6:22).

    If it was only an angel, and not God, that Gideon saw, then why was he afraid for his life?

    The angel of the LORD appeared to a Hebrew woman to announce the birth of a son, Samson. He was to deliver the people of Israel from their enemies.

    The angel of the LORD did not appear again to Manoah and his wife. Then Manoah realized that it was the angel of the LORD. And Manoah said to his wife, "We shall surely die, for we have seen God" (Judges 13:21,22).

    They identified the angel of the LORD with God Himself.

    There are others but I'll stop there ...

    The arch angel is the leader/commander of angels ... and the name Michael (who is like God) is used in that conjunction .... Jesus is the leader/commander of angels .... and recognizing him as such in no way diminishes Him being the divine son of God ... no one can lead/command or send ministering angels other than God/Jesus.
     
  5. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    read to here, interesting thread
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    so that is various names.. but the same divine person, infinite God.. second member of the Trinity.

     
  7. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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  8. reddogs

    reddogs Contributor Supporter

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    Scripture is clear, compare Isaiah to Revelation...
    Isaiah 44:6
    Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

    Isaiah 48:12
    Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

    Isaiah 40:28
    Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.

    Isaiah 63:16
    Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O Lord, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.


    Revelation 1:11
    Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

    Revelation 1:17
    And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

    Revelation 2:8
    And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

    Revelation 22:13
    I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
     
  9. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 1:8 Good News Translation (GNT)
    8 “I am the first and the last,” says the Lord God Almighty, who is, who was, and who is to come.

    Using your logic, we would be worshipping the Mormon, Latter Day Saints god.

    Someone, stated that God Almighty refers to the Father.

    logically, you can not have two first and last, nor can the first also be the last.

    Since, Hebrew was my first language, I never made the error of thinking that phrase literally meant the first created.

    Where "first and last" along with "Alpha and Omega" are used is a Hebrew parallel.

    From the context of the verses, the phrase, idom simply means that God is eternal.

    First and Last - All the Biblical Names for God
    The Concept of Time in the Bible and the Dead Sea Scrolls
    By Gerŝon Brîn

    "Richard Bauckham, for example, has said: “As a way of stating unambiguously that Jesus Christ belongs to the fullness of the eternal God, this surpasses anything in the NT” (R. Bauckham, The Theology of the Book of Revelation, 1993, 56-57)." Jesus as Alpha and Omega, first and last, beginning and end
     
  10. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 21 Good News Translation (GNT)
    The New Heaven and the New Earth
    21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth. The first heaven and the first earth disappeared, and the sea vanished. 2 And I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared and ready, like a bride dressed to meet her husband. 3 I heard a loud voice speaking from the throne: “Now God's home is with people! He will live with them, and they shall be his people. God himself will be with them, and he will be their God. 4 He will wipe away all tears from their eyes. There will be no more death, no more grief or crying or pain. The old things have disappeared.”

    5 Then the one who sits on the throne said, “And now I make all things new!” He also said to me, “Write this, because these words are true and can be trusted.” 6 And he said, “It is done! I am the first and the last, the beginning and the end. To anyone who is thirsty I will give the right to drink from the spring of the water of life without paying for it. 7 Those who win the victory will receive this from me: I will be their God, and they will be my children. 8 But cowards, traitors, perverts, murderers, the immoral, those who practice magic, those who worship idols, and all liars—the place for them is the lake burning with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

    What does it mean that Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega? | GotQuestions.org

    Psa 2 is about a coronation of the king messiah.

    ALPHA AND OMEGA - JewishEncyclopedia.com
     
  11. reddogs

    reddogs Contributor Supporter

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    So you see He is everlasting, 100 percent in the fullness of the Godhead and yet became man...

    Romans 1:20
    For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    The "Beginning and the end" does not mean that God the Son will die some day. It is the A-Z first-and-last concept as opposed to "born and then will die"
     
  14. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    "Those who rejected the traditional Trinity doctrine of the Christian creeds were devout believers in the biblical testimony regarding the eternity of God the Father, the deity of Jesus Christ "as Creator, Redeemer and Mediator," and the "importance of the Holy Spirit."[14] While some, very early in Adventist history, held that Christ had been created,[15] by 1888 it was widely accepted that he had preexisted from "so far back in the days of eternity that to finite comprehension" he was "practically without beginning." Whatever that beginning may have involved, it was not by "creation."[16] Moreover, they weren't initially convinced that the Holy Spirit was an individual divine Person and not merely an expression for the divine presence, power, or influence."
    Andrews University Seminary Studies: Trinity Debate Part 1

    Uriah Smith, Thoughts, Critical and Practical, on the Book of Revelation (Battle Creek, MI: Seventh-day Adventist Publishing Association, 1865)
    Claimed that Rev 3:14 proves that the Son of God had a beginning.

    I did not write "all sda", I wrote "some SDA"....

    "Uriah Smith, long time editor of the Review and Herald, believed during the 1860s that Jesus was a created being. He was “the first created being, dating his existence far back before any other created being or thing, next to the self-existent and eternal God.”9 By 1881 Smith had changed his view and concluded that Jesus was “begotten” and not created."
    http://archive.atsjats.org/10Burt-SDATrinity0601.pdf

    It was basically, ministers who came out of the Christian Connextion among SDA like Uriah Smith and James White who held the belief that the Son of God had a beginning.

    The Arian or Anti-Trinitarian Views Presented in Seventh-day Adventist Literature and the Ellen G. White Answer
    by Erwin Roy Gane
    E. GANE M.A. Thesis. Table of Contets

    Today, there are some who claims to be SDA(who are not part of the mainline denomination) that teaches that.

    "A selective list of Adventists who either spoke against the Trinity and/ or rejected the eternal deity of Christ include J. B. Frisbie, J. N. Loughborough, R. F. Cottrell, J. N. Andrews, D. M. Canright, J. H. Waggoner, and C. W. Stone.10 W. A. Spicer at one point told A. W. Spalding that his father, after becoming a Seventh-day Adventist (he was formerly a Seventh Day Baptist minister),

    ...

    During the 1940s, an ever-increasing majority of the church believed in the eternal, underived deity of Christ and the personhood of the Holy Spirit, yet there were some who held back and even actively resisted the change. These were mainly comprised of a few older ministers and Bible teachers such as J. S. Washburn, C. S. Longacre, and W. R. French. In 1944, Uriah Smith’s Daniel and the Revelation was revised and his comments on the derived nature of Christ’s divinity were removed.26

    " The Trinity in Seventh-day Adventist History
     
  15. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    I never said the Son of God will cease to exist. Death is defined as separation of body and spirit in James 2:26 or the last verse of that chapter.
     
  16. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    "THE FATHER, SON, AND HOLY GHOST MRS. E. G. WHITE T HE Father can not be described by the things of earth.. The Father is all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, and is invisible to mortal sight. The Son is all the fullness of the Godhead manifested. The word of God declares Him to be " the express image of His person." " God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Here is shown the personality of the Father. The Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to heaven, is the Spirit in all the fullness of the Godhead, making manifest the power of divine grace to all who receive and believe in Christ as a personal Saviour. There are three living persons of the heavenly trio. In the name of these three powers,—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will cooperate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ. What is the sinner to do" https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...72859/HEAVENLY+TRIO-BIBLE+TRAINING+SCHOOL.pdf Heavenly Trio in a Nutshell — As It Reads
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Indeed - the three persons of the Godhead.
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    me neither
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    And under the banner of "some SDA" you can find a lot of "individual ideas" -- some Baptist was Jim Jones. That does not mean that everything Jones taught is believed by all Baptists - it was just "some baptists".

    Uriah Smith and James White - from the Church of the Brethren were among many SDAs in 1860's that thought the SDA church should not have a set of defined doctrines that all SDAs would need to sign up for because to them it was too much like a "creed" that some might use instead of relying on the Bible to determine true doctrine.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
  20. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Married
    US-Republican
    I am tired as usual. I am not sure if I am at the end of round six or starting round seven with the virus.
     
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