• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

Jesus Says: "Before Abraham Existed, I AM"

Discussion in 'Paterology, Christology & Pneumatology' started by Saved.By.Grace, Oct 16, 2017.

  1. Saved.By.Grace

    Saved.By.Grace Member

    United Kingdom
    "Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keeps my saying, he shall never see death. Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that you have a demon. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and you say, If a man keeps my saying, he shall never taste of death. Are you greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom make you yourself? Jesus answered, If I honor myself, my honor is nothing: it is my Father that honors me; of whom you say, that he is your God: Yet you have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?

    Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by."

    (Gospel of John, chapter 8, verses 51-59)

    Jesus here makes some profound statements that the Jews find very hard to accept, and challenge Who Jesus really is.

    Firstly, Jesus says that anyone who keeps His sayings, which is to follow Him and His Teachings, that they would never die. In His conversation with the woman at the well in John chapter 4, and Martha in chapter 11, Jesus makes the same promises for those who will fully trust Him. Jesus is the source of eternal life, and therefore anyone who is truly born-again by faith in Him, is given this life, and can never die.

    Secondly, because the Jews did not understand the spiritual meaning to what Jesus said, their response was based on their "fleshly insight". Abraham was dead, who was their "father", as were the other Old Testament Prophets, and yet here Jesus says that if anyone were to abide in Him, they would never die. By saying this, Jesus placed Himself uniquely above even Abraham, who was highly honoured by the Jews, which they did not like.

    Thirdly, Jesus speaks of His own Deity and relation with Abraham, and says that Abraham "saw His Day", (which probably refers to Abraham's encounter with "Yahweh" [Jesus] in Genesis chapters 18-19). The Jews say to Jesus, that He was not even 50 years old (He was actually just over 30), and yet claims to have "seen" Abraham, who lived some thousands of years earlier.

    Fourthly, Jesus' response to the Jews charge that how could He have seen Abraham, who lived centuries earlier, when He Himself was not even 50 years old. To which Jesus says: "before Abraham was, I AM". A response that so enraged the Jews, that they took up stones to stone Jesus for what they considered to be blasphemy.

    The final response by Jesus prompted the Jews to want to stone Him. So, what did Jesus say that so enraged the Jews? His words are better understood when seen in the Greek text. "πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί", literally, "before Abraham came into existence, I AM". The contrast between, " γενέσθαι" (was), that is, "began to be" of Abraham; and " ἐγὼ εἰμί" the "timeless existence" of Jesus, is very important. The Jews in had accused Jesus of making Himself to be "greater" than Abraham, and that Abraham actually rejoiced to "see" Jesus, which the Jews could not fathom. Abraham, says Jesus, had a "beginning" as he was born in time; whereas He did not have any "beginning", as He has always existed, which is seen in the force of the words ἐγὼ εἰμί", which is in the present, continuance. But, Jesus' words are far more important as to what they meant to the Jews, than caused them to want to stone Him. They very clearly understood Jesus here to claim the Divine Name, "I AM" for Himself. The Jews understood Jesus to refer to the Book of Exodus, where Moses asks God for His Name, so that he could tell the children of Israel Who had sent him to them. To which God replied, "Eheyeh asher Eheyeh" (Exodus 3:14), which is best rendered into English as "I am who I am". Attempts to weaken these words to, "I will be who I will be", etc, are quite wrong.

    The Greek version of the Old Testament, the Septuagint (LXX), which was completed some 150 years before the Birth of Jesus Christ, and carried out by the best Jewish scholars, who would have been experts in both Hebrew and Greek, render the Hebrew of Exodus 3:14, by "Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν", which literally has the meaning, "I am He Who Exists", or "I am the Eternal One". Which is the basis of the Name of God in Hebrew, "YHWH". The LXX was the main Old Testament version that was used by the early Christians, though so who were more learned, used the Hebrew, like the scholar Jerome. Because the Christians Made use of the LXX, the Jews in the 2nd century made their own Greek versions of the Old Testament. The first was done by Aquila in the first half of this century. And then towards the end of this century, another was made by Theodotion. Both these versions have rendered the Hebrew, "Eheyeh asher Eheyeh", in Greek “εσομαι (ὃς) εσομαι”, which is the future of “εἰμι”, “I will be Who I will be”. This was done not because they were being more faithful to the Hebrew, but, because it was to counter the Christian use of this verse for the Deity of Jesus Christ, when used with John 8:58. This is exactly what was done in Isaiah 7:14, where the LXX uses “παρθένος” (virgin), where these two Greek versions changed it to “νεᾶνις” (young woman). While it is true that the “παρθένος” can indeed by a “νεᾶνις”, a “νεᾶνις”, may not be a “παρθένος”, thereby removing the link of the Prophecy of the Virgin Birth of Jesus Christ, which was a fulfilment as we seen in Matthew’s Gospel, where he wrote under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, “Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.”. Which is conclusive for any Bible-believing Christian. What Aquila and Theodotion did, is exactly what the Jehovah’s Witnesses have done in verses like John 1:1. They used to use the King James Version when they first started, but could never argue against its reading, “and the Word was God”, which is used for Jesus Christ. So, they did their own “translation” of the Holy Bible, where they corrupted this verse, (and others) to read, “and the Logos was a god”, to agree with their heretical teaching that Jesus Christ is a created being!

    Exodus 3:14, as translated from the Dead Sea Scrolls, into English, reads: "And God said to [Moses, “I] am that I am.” And he said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I am has sent me to you.’ ” (Martin Abegg Jr., Peter Flint, Eugene Ulrich; The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible). The Jews also recognise this to be the best rendering of the Hebrew text, "Te true pronunciation of the name YHWH was never lost. Several early Greek writers of the Christian Church testify that the name was pronounced “Yahweh.” This is confirmed, at least for the vowel of the first syllable of the name, by the shorter form Yah, which is sometimes used in poetry (e.g., Ex. 15:2) and the -yahu or -yah that serves as the final syllable in very many Hebrew names. In the opinion of many scholars, YHWH is a verbal form of the root hwh, which is an older variant of the root hyh “to be.” Te vowel of the first syllable shows that the verb is used in the form of a future-present causative hiphʿil, and must therefore mean “He causes to be, He brings into existence.” The explanation of the name as given in Exodus 3:14, Eheyeh-Asher-Eheyeh, “I-Am-Who-I Am,” (Encyclopaedia Judaica). And, " And God said unto Moses: ‘I AM THAT I AM’; and He said: ‘Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you.’" (The Jewish Publication Society of America, The Holy Scriptures according to the Masoretic Text ). The Hebrew verb, “’ehyeh” is in the first person singular, “to exist, to be”. It is quite wrong to conclude, as some do, that this verb is always used in the “future tense”. We have examples like Jeremiah 31:9, “They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am (ehyeh) a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.”, and Micah 7:1, “Woe is me! for I am (ehyeh) as when they have gathered the summer fruits, as the grape gleanings of the vintage: there is no cluster to eat: my soul desired the first ripe fruit.”, and, Job 11:4, “For thou hast said, My doctrine is pure, and I am (ehyeh) clean in thine eyes.”. In each case the verb “’ehyeh” is in the “present tense”.

    In John's vision of Jesus Christ in Revelation chapter 1, we read Jesus' words to John, "Fear not; I am the first and the last: and He that lives, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen; and have the keys of hades and of death." (17-18). "ὁ ζῶν" (He that Lives), or literally, "The Living One", as in Exodus 3:14 in the Septuagint. On the words, "ὁ πρῶτος καὶ ὁ ἔσχατος" (The First and The Last), Dr J H Thayer, a Unitarian, says in his famous Greek lexicon, "the eternal one" (page 554), something that his own "theology" would never allow, as only Almighty God could ever be described as "Eternal", which he denied! In John's Gospel we have an interesting account of Jesus' arrest. "Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek you? They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus said unto them, I am (Ἐγώ εἰμι). And Judas also, who betrayed him, stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, I am (Ἐγώ εἰμι), they went backward, and fell to the ground." (18:4-6). Note, Jesus tells them in verse 5, "Ἐγώ εἰμι" (I AM), and when they heard this, they fell backwards. In the Gospels we read the account of the boat that the Disciples were on, was being tossed on the sea, and Jesus comes to them walking on the sea. " And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea. And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear. But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid" (Matthew 14:25-27; Mark 6:48-50; John 6:17-20). When Jesus says "it is I", the Greek is actually, " Ἐγώ εἰμι" (I AM), and this was enough assurance for the Disciples!

    Returning to the account of the Burning Bush and Moses, we will see some very important factors as to the identity of Who spoke to Moses out of the bush. In Exodus chapter 3, we read in verse 2, " And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush". Then, in verse 4 we read, " So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”". And further, " Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God." (verse 6). Here we read that it was "The Angel (or "One sent", "Messenger"), Who appeared to Moses "in the bush". Then "Yahweh" saw that Moses turned to take a closer look, and "Elohim" called to Moses "from the middle of the bush", and identifies Himself as, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob”. The Eternal God. It should be noted, that since this Person, "The Angel" is said to be "of the Lord", He must be "distinct" from "the Lord", Who would have "sent" Him on this mission. In Isaiah chapter 48, we have Yahweh speaking (read in context) in verse 16, where He says, "Approach Me and listen to this. From the beginning I have not spoken in secret; from the time anything existed, I was there.” And now the Lord God has sent me and His Spirit". Here we have "Yahweh" Who is said to have been "sent" by "Yahweh Elohim", Who also sends the Holy Spirit. The "Angel (Messenger) of the Lord" is also Someone Who is "sent", as the Hebrew term says. It was The Angel of the Lord who responded to Moses when he asked, "what is His Name, what shall I say to them?" (3:14). To which The Angel of the Lord replied, "I AM WHO I AM".

    It should be noted, that The Angel of the Lord, never does speak on behalf of God, as His representative, but in many cases, speaks in the first-person as Almighty God Himself, which is never true of any created being, in either the Old or New Testaments. The first appearance of The Angel of the Lord, is found in Genesis chapter 16, where we read of Hagar running away. We read in verse 10, "The Angel of the Lord also said to her, “I will greatly multiply your offspring, and they will be too many to count.”. Something only Almighty God could have said. Then Hagar says, "So she called the Lord who spoke to her: The God Who Sees, for she said, “In this place, have I actually seen the One who sees me?” That is why she named the spring, “A Well of the Living One Who Sees Me.” It is located between Kadesh and Bered." (verses 13-14). In Genesis 22 we are told that "God tested Abraham" (verse 1), and instructs Abraham about offering his only son, Isaac, as a sacrifice to Him (verses 1-10). In verse 11, we read that " But The Angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!"", and then goes on, "Do not lay a hand on the boy or do anything to him. For now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your only son from Me.” (verse 12). And, " Then the Angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time out of heaven, and said: “By Myself I have sworn, says the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son" (15-16). None of which can be said of any created angel, as here The Angel again speaks in the first-person as Yahweh, as He did in Exodus chapter 3. We read in the Book of Judges, that, "Then the Angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said: “I led you up from Egypt and brought you to the land of which I swore to your fathers; and I said, ‘I will never break My covenant with you. And you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars.’ But you have not obeyed My voice. Why have you done this? Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side, and their gods shall be a snare to you.’ So it was, when the Angel of the LORD spoke these words to all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voices and wept. (2:1-4). We then read in chapter 6, these words, ““Thus says the LORD God (Yahweh Elohim) of Israel: ‘I brought you up from Egypt and brought you out of the house of bondage; and I delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians and out of the hand of all who oppressed you, and drove them out before you and gave you their land. Also I said to you, “I am the LORD (Yahweh) your God (Elohim); do not fear the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.” But you have not obeyed My voice.’” (Judges 6:8-10). Note the words that I have highlighted here, and those in chapter two. Malakh Yahweh, speaks in Judges chapter two in the first person, not as One representing another. Again, in Judges chapter six, we have the account where Malakh Yahweh, appears to Gideon (verse eleven onwards). After Gideon realised Who it was he was speaking with, Malakh Yahweh, he says, "Alas, O Lord GOD! For I have seen the Angel of the LORD face to face." (v.22). But, how can this be a problem, if Malakh Yahweh, were a created being?. Gideon thought that because he had seen God, that He would now die. But the Lord Himself says to him, “"Then the LORD said to him, “Peace be with you; do not fear, you shall not die". Why, even the need for these words of assurance from Yahweh Himself, if Malakh Yahweh, were a created being? (see, also Judges 13: 21-23 in context).

    In the Book of the Prophet Hosea, we read about the account from Genesis, where God wrestles with Jacob. "The LORD hath also a controversy with Judah, and will punish Jacob according to his ways; according to his doings will he recompense him. He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God: Yea, he had power over the Angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto Him." (Hosea 12:2-4) . This story is found in the Book of Genesis, chapter 32, "And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." (24-30) . Here we read that Jacob wrestled with "God", and yet did not die even though he saw God "face to face". But, it is clear that Jacob did not wrestle with God the Father, Whom the Bible says no person has ever seen His Face (John 6:46, "Not that any man hath seen the Father). It is "The Angel of the Lord", Who is none other than the pre-Incarnate Jesus Christ, Who wrestled with Jacob, which is clearly confirmed in Hosea, " he had power over the Angel".

    These accounts clearly show that "The Angel of the Lord" is not a created being, but Himself Deity, and speaks often in the first-person as Yahweh, and not just as a representative speaking on behalf of God, even though He is "sent".

    The following Scriptures will show the Identity of The Angel of the Lord.

    In the Prophet Malachi, we read of Yahweh speaking, "Behold, I send My messenger, And he shall clear the way before Me; And the Lord, whom ye seek, Will suddenly come to His temple, And the Angel of the covenant, Whom ye delight in, Behold, he cometh, Saith the LORD of hosts. But who may abide the day of his coming? And who shall stand when he appeareth? For he is like a refiner’s fire, And like fullers’ soap" (3:1-2). The Speaker here is "The Lord of Hosts". The first "messenger" spoken of here, is John the Baptist, of whom it is also spoken of in Isaiah, "The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God" (40:3), where the language is very similar to Malachi. We then read of "the Lord whom you seek", Who is further described as "the Angel of the covenant", Who is "Coming". This "Lord" and "Angel", Who are one and the same Person, cannot be the first "messenger" spoken of, as it says, " But who may abide the day of his coming? And who shall stand when he appeareth? For he is like a refiner’s fire, And like fullers’ soap", which can hardly be used for John the Baptist, or any other created being!

    Mark begins his Gospel with quotations from both Malachi 3:1 and Isaiah 40:3, and applies them to the First Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, and John the Baptist as His forerunner. "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight." (Mark 1:1-3). The words, " Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee", are a quotation from Malachi 3:1, and "The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight", are from Isaiah 40:3. Mark has the Prophecy at the beginning of his Gospel. In Matthew (11:10) and Luke (7:27), the words are spoken by the Lord Jesus Christ. The three quotations from Malachi are not from the LXX, but rather a free translation from the Hebrew, made by Jesus Himself. In the original it is Jehovah Himself who speaks of His own coming: “Behold, I will send My messenger, and he shall prepare the way before Me.” In the Evangelist’s paraphrase it is Jehovah who speaks to the Christ—“shall prepare Thy way before Thee.”. The words in Malachi 3, have been altered so as to make the Messianic reference apparent—μου (Me) changed into σου (Thee). By applying the Prophecy to John, Jesus identifies him with the messenger whom God was to send to prepare Messiah’s way. A very strong testimony to the Deity of Jesus Christ, to Himself! Jesus thereby identifies Himself with "the Lord" and "Angel of the Covenant", in Malachi 3:1, who is "Coming". The Prophecy from Isaiah 40 identifies the Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, as the Coming of Yahweh, "Prepare ye the way of the LORD", who are One and the same, and another testimony of the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ, Who is "Yahweh and Elohim".

    We have a very interesting textual variation for Isaiah 9:6, which I believe is the original reading, which was corrupted very early by the Jews, who are opposed to the Messiahship of Jesus Christ. This is only to be found in the LXX version of the Old Testament.

    "His Name is called, the Messenger of Great Counsel, Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Potentate, Prince of Peace, Father of the Age to Come"

    The words "Μεγάλης βουλῆς ἄγγελος" (Messenger of Great Counsel), is found in the best textual evidence for the LXX version, and know to a great host of both Greek and Latin Church leaders. As early as Ignatius (A.D. 35-107), Irenaeus (130-202), Clement of Alexandria (150-215), Tertullian (160-220), the heretic Oregin (185-254), Athanasius (296-373), Hilary of Poitiers (310-368), Gregory Nazianzen (329-390), Basil of Caesarea (330-379) Ambrose (337-397), Augustine (354-430), etc. The Fourth Ecumenical Council (A.D.451), which dealt with the Two Natures in the One Person of the Lord Jesus Christ, include these words in Isaiah 9:6, "and they shall call His Name Angel of Great Counsel..."

    As we have seen, the LXX is a work that was completed some 150 years before the Birth of Jesus Christ, and done by scholars who would have been experts in both Hebrew and Greek, and used Hebrew manuscripts that were probably even older than the Dead Sea Scrolls. They included the phrase "Μεγάλης βουλῆς ἄγγελος", as being part of Isaiah, which the early Church used for the Deity of Jesus Christ. In the later Greek versions of the Old Testament, by Aquila, Theodotion, and Symmachus, also of the 2nd century A.D., were done for the purpose of removing or distorting any reference to Jesus Christ, which was clear in the LXX, and was being used by the Christians. Like they did for Isaiah 7:14.

    Even the Hebrew Old Testament has been corrupted by the Jews, when they have found passages that speak of Jesus Christ, and have been used by the New Testament writers, in fulfilment of Prophecies. The reading of Isaiah 9:6 is one such example, where the Hebrew text that is much older than the Massoretic Text, which was done between the 7th and 10th centuries A.D; whereas the LXX was completed some 150 years before the Birth of Jesus Christ, and based on much older Hebrew manuscripts. Another such Prophecy is found in Psalm 22, where we read: " For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones: they look and stare upon me. They part my garments among them, and cast lots for my clothing." (16-18). The words "they pierced my hands and my feet", which no doubt is a reference to the crucifixion of Jesus Christ on the cross, has been changed in the Massoretic Text, to, "Like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet", so as to remove any reference to Jesus' death. The change is a very simple one, from " kâ’ărû" (they have pierced) to "kâ’ărî" (like a lion), which is complete nonsense in the passage! The LXX, Latin Vulgate, and old Syriac versions, have " they have pierced". The words in verse 18, "They part my garments among them, and cast lots for my clothing.", are a fulfilment in Jesus' death, as recorded by Matthew 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:24. As are the words of Psalm 22:1, " My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46, etc).

    In Malachi chapter 4 we read of a further account on John the Baptist, as coming before the Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ.

    "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.". In Luke 1:16-17 we read, " And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord (Yahweh).". Note the words, "and he (John the Baptist) shall go before Him (the Lord their God)". Which is further seen in verse 76, " And you, child, shall be called the prophet of the Highest: for you shall go before the face of the Lord to prepare His ways". John the Baptist is the Prophet who was sent to prepare the Way for the First Coming of Jesus Christ, Who is Himself Yahweh.

    The evidence is very clear to the fact, that Jesus Christ is Yahweh, and so declares Himself in passages like John 8:58, and His quoting of Malachi 3:1, where in the Gospel references, Jesus clearly identifies Himself as the "Yahweh Elohim" of the Old Testament passage. We have also seen that the Speaker in Exodus 3 in the Burning Bush, is "The Angel of the Lord" (distinguished from "the Lord"), Who is the Person Who gives Moses His Name as "I AM WHO I AM". And the testimony of Scripture has clearly shown, that "The Angel of the Lord", is the Lord Jesus Christ. It is also to be observed, that the Name "Yahweh", which is used for Jesus Christ, as it is used also for the Father and Holy Spirit, has as its meaning, "the ever-existing One", which the LXX in Exodus 3:14 rightly renders. If, as some blasphemously teach, that Jesus Christ is no more than a "created being", then the Bible could not ever have used the Divine Name of Almighty God, "YAHWEH", for Jesus Christ! This Name itself also shows beyond any doubt, that Jesus Christ IS 100% coequal, coeternal and coessential, to both God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit.
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

    United States
    Q: "Jesus Christ IS Yahweh"?
    A: No. No one spiritual Person of the TRI-UNE Godhead is the same as / identical to / "equal" to another.

    Jesus never claimed nor proved that He was YHWH of the OT, nor God the Father of the NT.

    He did claim and prove His DEITY / DIVINITY in the NT.
  3. V37

    V37 New Member

    United Kingdom
    A rather long opening position—probably explaining the paucity of reply.

    I gotta go with RG. Biblically some terms have been used unsystematically in real language. Thus we can see that [adam] was used about the male, yet also about him and her as one (Gen.5:2). Likewise [God] can have a reference solely to the father (1 Cor.8:6), and yet is wide enough to function for the trinity, and sometimes even to specify the son (http://mdtc.eu/wggc200.html)—the latter times are all in close context to his father, as should any of our songs that sometimes heretically proclaim Jesus as God or our god.

    Mt.28:19 has one name, yet three persons. I think the evidence is strongly that three persons are deity: C S Lewis offered a helpful picture of a cube (Mere Christianity, 4.2). Systematic theology seeks to formulate: three co-eternal persons, one being. Indeed factoring in the humanity of Jesus, it is better to say that there was a time when he was not, though never a time when God the son was not. Jesus is the incarnation of God the son, a creature solely in time & space. Systematically (and the Bible as said used shorthand) to say that Jesus is God, or that Yeshua is Yahweh, is to drop out the facts of Jesus’ humanity (there was a time when he was not), and to drop out God the father & God the spirit: Jesus is not all there is to God; even God the son is not all there is to God. Too often I hear that Jesus is God, and God died on the cross (Charles Wesley was crass); or through the dominical factor prayer to the father as lord turn into thanking him (the ‘lord’) for dying on the cross (patripassianism). My own formula is that Jesus is the permanent temporal mode of the eternal second person of deity. [God the son] is safer for huiology (doctrine of sonship) than [God]; [God/Yahweh the son as a human being] is safer for Christology (doctrine of messiahship) than [Jesus is God/Yahweh].

    Be aware that εγω ειμι was a common Greek way to say emphatically [I am]—Jhn.9:9.
  4. Randy777

    Randy777 Well-Known Member

    United States
    He did claim that He and the Father were one, that is the Father living in him doing His work.
    He did claim that the Father is the only true God and His God.
    He did claim He was Gods Son.
    He did claim the Father was greater than Him.
    He did claim He lived by the Father just as those who feed on Him live by Him.
    He did claim that the Spirit of the Sovereign Lord was upon Him. He was God's anointed one.
    Again He did claim He was the Christ. The anointed one who was prophesied to come in the scriptures.
    He did claim His Kingdom was not of this world.
    He did claim or acknowledge He was the King of the Jews.
    He did claim that the demons were driven out of people by the Spirit of God.
    He did claim He was sent by the Father to do the Fathers will and that His teaching was not His own.
    He did claim that all authority in heaven and earth were given to Him.
    He did claim no one enters the Kingdom of God except by Him. That no one comes to the Father except by Him.

    The miracles that the Apostles performed were by the authority Jesus gave them and by the Spirit of God.
    The miracles Jesus performed were by the authority the Father gave Him and by the Spirit of God.

    God's firstborn would be a ancient being and not Josephs son and such a Son would make such a statement, "Before Abraham was born I Am"

    Jesus did not claim divinity in Himself. He received from the Father all that He is and has. The Father glorifies Jesus is what one should see. And in that the Father is glorified.

    The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him. In that unity Jesus is the exact image of the wisdom and power of the Father. Mighty God. Jesus has His own spirit. "Father into your hands I commit my spirit"
    Its clear to me the Son who was, his spirit, was in the tent of the body God prepared for Him. Body-Mary conceived by the Spirit of God.