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Jesus saves all but the son of perdition, how then is the beast of perdition saved?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Gottservant, Mar 3, 2015.

  1. Gottservant

    Gottservant God loves your words, may men love them also Supporter

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    Hi there,

    Just wanted to put this thought out there for all the people that think people are damned or Satan or some other ridiculous thing.

    Answer me this: if Jesus saves all but the son of perdition (that the scripture may be fulfilled, as He said) how then is the Beast of perdition saved, whom we must imagine is not the self-same as the son of perdition - since they both have different titles?

    Clearly the Beast of perdition can be saved.

    In what way is "the strong delusion", yet weak?
     
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  2. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    I can usually see what scripture ideas come from, even when I do not agree with the interpretation. But this one completely stumps me. what scripture is the basis of your conclusion that "the Beast of perdition" will be "saved"?

    Actually, for that matter, where do you find a scripture that even names anyone or anything "the Beast of perdition"?
     
  3. Gottservant

    Gottservant God loves your words, may men love them also Supporter

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    The Beast of perdition is referred to in Revelation as "the eighth is of the seven, and goes into perdition".

    Theoretically, anything that is not the Son of Perdition, can be saved.
     
  4. KrAZeD

    KrAZeD Newbie

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    theoretically anything is possible I.e a tornado ripping through a junk yard and creating an airplane, is it probable is the problem. We can think that the "beast"/satan and the other fallen angels could get saved if they were to repent, though their is no scripture giving credence to any of it. Just the lone notion that even us made in His image were shown grace,compassion, and mercy after our willful disobedience.

    Remember they were cast down from heaven after already having their glory and standing in His presence, remember whom the lake of fire was first created for. Gods word can't return void, if He has said it is going to happen then it will happen.
     
  5. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Alright, it is a term you manufactured from scriptural phrases. And yes, any human can be saved, if they repent and trust in Jesus as their Savior. But although the offer even goes to this evil person, we are told that he will not repent.

    But there is no scripture anywhere that even hints at the idea that this offer also applies to angelic beings.
     
  6. Gottservant

    Gottservant God loves your words, may men love them also Supporter

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    Well, at least everybody is thinking about it.

    That is rare on this forum it seems.

    Not to say more needs to be said, but I think it is a real possibility.
     
  7. Codger

    Codger Regular Member

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    Sounds like "Tentmaker" doctrines.
     
  8. Echolipse

    Echolipse Watcher and Studier

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    Agreed there is not, but might I propose a different theory since we're on this topic....

    I agree with you on that part.

    -----------

    Ok a different theory I thought of a month or so ago was that angels do actually have free-will. Reason I say this is since we know that originally all angels worshiped at the throne of God, until Satan/Lucifer (who was an archangel and head of music) CHANGED his mind and thought he could become higher than God. He then influenced the other angels and they CHANGED their minds as well, which ended up getting them kicked out of heaven.

    The common and all around believed concept is that angels do not have free-will and are unable to think for themselves, but that contradicts exactly what we know occurred in history. For if angels didn't have free-will and didn't have any choice but to worship God, then they would have never had the choice to try something else and turn on God.

    Comments?
     
  9. pgp_protector

    pgp_protector Noted strange person

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    If Angels in the Presence of God can Change their mind, what is to prevent People in Heaven (In the Presence of God) from changing their Mind?
     
  10. Echolipse

    Echolipse Watcher and Studier

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    I believe that's what our time on this earth is about. Our test to see if we will remain faithful to Him.

    Especially since Lucifer changed his mind in the presence of God and he was able to change the mind of other angels.
     
  11. Gottservant

    Gottservant God loves your words, may men love them also Supporter

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    Historically, they changed their mind.

    I think that says it all.

    Whether or not they understood the reason they were changing their mind, or not - is another matter.
     
  12. Gottservant

    Gottservant God loves your words, may men love them also Supporter

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    This raises an interesting point.

    What is different about the Son of Perdition, that he unlike other people is not able to change his mind?

    I mean theoretically if he could change his mind, Jesus could save him?

    Which is why the Beast of Perdition can be saved?
     
  13. n2thelight

    n2thelight Guest

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    Revelation 17:8 "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is [shall come]."

    This "beast" was in the Garden of Eden deceiving [beguiling] Eve; he is not here now, for he is in heaven accusing the saints before the throne of God, now. He [Satan] will ascend out of the bottomless pit, as we saw in Revelation 9:1, and 2, and "he will go to perdition", following the judgment at the end of the Millennium kingdom age. Friend, "he" spoken of here, is Satan, and don't let any one tell you any different. Satan is the "son of perdition" as recorded in II Thessalonians 2:1-4, and he will be the first Christ to come at the end of this earth age.

    "Perdition" means to "perish", and only Satan has had that sentence passed on him at this time. We are told that those "whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world", [that first earth age], will wonder, or follow after Satan. They fell in the first earth age, and they will also fall in this earth age. Those of who were chosen in that first earth age stood against Satan then, and they will also stand now. They are God's elect.

    When the last of the elect, and the 144,000 of Israel are sealed, then Satan will arrive as the Antichrist. This age is a repeat of the first earth age. Now, what about the other Christians? They will follow false doctrine, and go into Satan's camp. The deception will cover the whole earth, yet the truth is in your hands to forewarn those around you in this generation.

    There will be no equal to the deceptions that are going to come, in the history of all mankind. Yet the sermons of today are full of nonsense, with no sense of urgency given even as this great hour of deception is at our doorstep. The Church sleeps, while the Kenites steal the sheep.

    Revelation 17:9 "And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth."

    If you understand God's prophecy, then you have "wisdom". The "Mountains" are seven nations, or dominions. They are areas of land, and all seven dominions comprise the entire earth. They will make up Satan's earthly kingdom. A "kingdom" is "a king and his domain". The "woman", or this false religion will sit and rule over all seven of these dominions. "She" is the religion of Satan created by the Kenites, and the eighth verse told us it is Satan [the beast] that will sit over the woman.

    Revelation 17:10 "And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space."

    Now we get to something a little different. When we go back to verse eight, we will understand it.

    There were ten kings at first, but this deals with seven different kings. These seven kings have been over their dominions for some time. There is only one king that Christ has given power over all the earth in the past two thousand years, and that king is Satan. These seven kings represent the seven offices that Satan has held, from the "dragon" in the first earth age, "serpent" in the garden, all the way through this age to the Antichrist at the end of this age. There has been five roles that Satan has and is playing to this date, and Satan is our "accuser" before the throne of God today, but in time he will be right here on earth filling the role of Antichrist, which will be for a very short time. Satan's final role starts shortly, very shortly, with Michael casting him out of heaven [Revelation 12:7]. He will have only five months in his final role of this earth age.

    Revelation 17:11 "And the beast that was, and is not even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

    Remember in verse eight, "he" was the one out of the pit. Satan's "eighth" role is when he goes into perdition. Why, "of the seven"? Because he was over the seven, one entity in all seven positions; and now this eighth is his last.
    No one except Satan has been judged and sentenced already to perdition, as recorded in Ezekiel 28:18. This beast is the son of perdition, and "perdition" means "to destroy" or destroyer.

    Revelation 17:12 "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power [authority] as kings one hour with the beast."

    These "ten horns" are ten kings, and all these kings exists at the same time. They are not like the seven kings of the roles of Satan. They do not rule until a specific time, and then they rule for one hour.

    The beast [Antichrist] must appear first, then their power will be given to them by the Antichrist. This is after the deadly wound has been healed, the ending of the one world political system. This is the "hour of temptation" Jesus speaks of and warned us of seven times. The warnings are given so that we will not follow, or be deceived by this beast in that final hour [of this age]. The elect and the sealed of God will not be tempted in that hour, for they know who the tempter is [Satan].

    This is the time to have your Spiritual armor on and ready for the battle. There is no "rapture" or escape from this hour of temptation here on earth, but God's armor is sufficient to protect you during this spiritual battle. I am aware that this is the point that deceivers use to draw you in; however, it is the very deception that will lead you to the Antichrist.

    revelation17
     
  14. Gottservant

    Gottservant God loves your words, may men love them also Supporter

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    It would help me understand this, if you could elucidate what the other seven "roles" are for Satan. What powers go with these roles?

    I am fairly certain that the Son of Perdition was Judas, since it was by Judas' betrayal that the scripture was fulfilled (as Jesus said it must be).
     
  15. AlasBabylon

    AlasBabylon Mystic

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    The son of perdition was Esau, the man whom God hated.
    God also cursed Esau's descendants, Edom. OT prophecy.
    says Edom will be totally destroyed.

    The conflict between Jacob [Israel] and Esau is throughout
    Bible history... even in the New Testament [that is why Paul
    mentions again that God hated Esau.]

    When Babylon conquered and destroyed Jerusalem, Edom burned
    the temple and when Israelites were removed from the Holy Land
    into the Babylonian captivity, Edom moved into the Holy Land.

    King Herod was an Edomite [not an Israelite] who tried to destroy
    Israel's Messiah, Jesus Christ, God's Temple made without hands.


    .
     
  16. Bible2

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    John 17:12 and John 18:9 don't mean that no person, except one, can ultimately be lost, but refer only to none of the chosen/elect/saved 12 apostles (Luke 6:13) becoming lost, except Judas.

    The beast won't be saved (Revelation 19:20).

    But you're right that the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") won't have to be Judas.

    Also, note that this is true even though they are both called "the" son of perdition. For the Antichrist is called "the" son of perdition (2 Thessalonians 2:3) only in the context of his being the only unsaved person who will sit in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and declare himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31). And Judas was called "the" son of perdition (John 17:12) only in the context of his being the only one of the 12 apostles to lose his salvation, to draw back to perdition (cf. Hebrews 10:39). Every unsaved person is a son of perdition/damnation/destruction (Greek: apoleia, G0684) in that every unsaved person will end up suffering eternal perdition/damnation/destruction (2 Peter 3:7; 2 Peter 2:1,3; Philippians 1:28, Philippians 3:19; 1 Timothy 6:9b-10, Matthew 7:13).

    God doesn't love everyone; he hates the nonelect (Romans 9:11-22). During their lifetime, God hardens the nonelect in their sinfulness instead of showing them his mercy (Romans 9:18), because he created them to be vessels of his wrath (Romans 9:20-22, Proverbs 16:4). They were of old ordained to condemnation (Jude 1:4). They were appointed to disobedience (1 Peter 2:8, Acts 2:23). But God never forces them or anyone else to commit sin. He never even tempts anyone to commit sin (James 1:13-15). All people will be justly held accountable for their deeds (Romans 2:6-8), for neither election nor nonelection takes away the free will of people.

    God created nonelect people to be vessels of his wrath instead of vessels of his mercy so that he might eternally make known his wrath and power (Romans 9:21-22, Proverbs 16:4, Revelation 14:10-11). And God created elect people to be vessels of his mercy so that he might eternally make known his mercy, glory, and wisdom (Romans 9:23, Ephesians 3:10, Ephesians 1:8,11).

    God wants these aspects of his nature to be made known to both humans and angels (Ephesians 3:10), neither of which group yet knows experientially the full extent of God's qualities and abilities (1 Corinthians 2:9; 1 Peter 1:12b). For example, the full extent of God's wrath won't be known to humans and angels until Satan and his fallen angels and all of unsaved humanity are cast into the eternal suffering of the lake of fire and brimstone (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11), and saved humans and holy angels go forth from the city of New Jerusalem on the new earth to witness the suffering of the unsaved in the lake of fire (Isaiah 66:24), the eternal hell (Mark 9:45-46), and realize by seeing it, not only the extent of God's wrath, but by it, by way of contrast, the extent of God's mercy toward them (Lamentations 3:22-23). Just as "up" can't be eternally known for what it is without the eternal coexistence of "down", so God's mercy can't be eternally known for what it is without the eternal coexistence of his wrath.
     
  17. Bible2

    Bible2 Guest

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    It isn't.

    The Antichrist will have a False Prophet who will work amazing miracles (2 Thessalonians 2:9b) by which people will be deceived (Revelation 13:12-14, Revelation 19:20, cf. Matthew 24:24). And God will send strong delusion on unrepentant people so that they will believe "the" lie (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12; in the original Greek, there is a "the" before "lie"), which could be the antichrist lie which has been around since the 1st century AD (2 John 1:7; 1 John 4:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:7a), and which in our future will deceive the world into consciously and openly worshipping both Lucifer (Satan) the dragon and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the man of sin (2 Thessalonians 2:3-9), as God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). The antichrist lie denies that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), denies that Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (1 John 2:22b), and denies that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7), which denial is one of the key doctrines of Gnosticism.

    But Christians need to be aware that during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), even though the world will consciously and openly worship Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), this won't require that the Antichrist's one-world religion will say that Jesus is evil, or will turn the world against Jesus. For almost the entire world reveres Jesus, at least as being a good man. The Antichrist could confirm this basic world belief, but simply (in his words) "clarify" that while Jesus is indeed a good man, he isn't the Christ or the Son of God (1 John 2:22). No doubt the Antichrist will also deny that Jesus died on the Cross for our sins, as this, just as believing that he is the Christ and the Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36), is one of the core beliefs of the gospel by which people become saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

    So what the Antichrist could do is keep the idea of a good Jesus, but strip it of everything by which Jesus saves people from hell. And this wouldn't require that the Antichrist deny Jesus' 2nd coming. Indeed, the Antichrist and his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) could even try to employ to their own ends the Biblical prophecy of Jesus' 2nd coming, as well as the Muslim prophecy which says that the miracle-working prophet Jesus will return bodily from heaven in the last days to bring the whole earth into the worship of the true God. For the False Prophet could claim that he is Jesus returned. And he could perform amazing miracles (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof of his claim (cf. John 3:2). This is one reason why it is important to know when and how the real Jesus' 2nd coming will happen (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21).

    Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma, but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore to the world the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and which still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society. The False Prophet could present his miraculously calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist are the true God (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), in an inversion of how back in Old Testament times, Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove that YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39).

    The person whom the Antichrist will revile is YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36), whom many people mistakenly think of as being (in their words) "the God of only the Old Testament, that cruel and hateful God who commanded people to commit genocide and kill babies (1 Samuel 15:3), whereas Jesus came and preached love for everyone (Matthew 5:44)". The truth is that Jesus confirmed that the God of the Old Testament, YHWH (Deuteronomy 6:4-5, Leviticus 19:18), is the same as the God of the New Testament (Mark 12:29-31), and that the Old Testament is true (Matthew 5:17-18, Luke 24:44-48). Jesus died for our sins in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (Isaiah 53; 1 Peter 2:24). And he rose from the dead in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (e.g. Psalms 16:10, Acts 2:31). Jesus died to establish the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28), which YHWH had foretold in the Old Testament (Jeremiah 31:31-34). And Jesus died to bring about the defeat of Satan (Hebrews 2:14), which YHWH had foretold from even the first book of the Old Testament (Genesis 3:15).

    Nonetheless, building on many people's misconceptions of YHWH as being (in their words) "the cruel God of the Old Testament", no doubt one of the Antichrist's chief blasphemies against YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36) will be that YHWH is an evil god. This is one of the ancient blasphemies of Gnosticism, another being the antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The world will be deceived into completely rejecting YHWH, and worshipping Satan and the Antichrist instead (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9). Satan may be worshipped not as "Satan", which most everyone sees as a bad name (it means "Adversary"), but as "Lucifer" (Isaiah 14:12), which means "the morning star". The Antichrist could falsely say that it is YHWH who is the true "Satan", the true "Adversary" of mankind.

    Because the Antichrist and his False Prophet (possibly masquerading as Jesus) will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), and will deny that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and because they will bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) instead (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), they could falsely say that (the non-mortal flesh) Lucifer is the Christ, that the new name of Christ (Revelation 3:12c) is "Lucifer Christ". For just as "Lucifer" means "the morning star", so Christ is the morning star (Revelation 22:16b). Also, Christ identified himself with the serpent (John 3:14), and Lucifer is the serpent (Revelation 12:9). Also, Christ said "Ye are gods" (John 10:34), and it was the serpent who said "ye shall be as gods" (Genesis 3:5).

    But the truth is that Lucifer fell from his office of morning star (Isaiah 14:12) and became Satan (cf. Luke 10:18). Jesus Christ has taken over the office of morning star (Revelation 22:16). And Jesus Christ identified himself with only the brass serpent on the pole in Numbers 21:8-9 (John 3:14), which typified Jesus Christ's crucifixion for our sins (John 19:16, Matthew 26:28). And in John 10:34, Jesus Christ (John 20:31) was quoting YHWH in Psalms 82:6-7, which shows that even though humans have knowledge of good and evil as gods do (Genesis 3:22), they will still die like humans (Psalms 82:7), contradicting the serpent's lie (Genesis 3:4). Nonetheless, the Antichrist could falsely say that Lucifer is the Christ and the true and beneficent God of mankind, and that the False Prophet is the miracle-working prophet Jesus (cf. John 3:2, Acts 3:22-24), returned to point the world to the true Christ/God. The Antichrist could falsely say he (the Antichrist) is the human/divine "Son" of Lucifer, who must be worshipped as God along with Lucifer (Revelation 13:4,8). This would be similar to how Biblical Christians rightly worship the human/divine Jesus Christ (John 1:1,14) as YHWH God (the Son) along with YHWH God the Father (John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8).

    Near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) in an attempt to fight and defeat YHWH himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon, the armies will travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before the real Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:20 to 20:3).
     
  18. Bible2

    Bible2 Guest

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    That's right.

    But note that only the elect can repent and believe in Jesus.

    That is, the elect are those individuals, whether Jews or Gentiles, who were chosen (elected) and predestinated by God before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13), before they were born (Romans 9:11-24), to become initially saved by faith at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b). This initial salvation is possible only because of Jesus' sacrifice (Romans 3:25-26), which was also foreordained by God before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8; 1 Peter 1:19-20).

    Everyone on his own is wholly corrupt (Romans 3:9-12), and so it is impossible for people on their own to ever believe in Jesus and the gospel and be initially saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31; 1 John 5:13) through their own will (Romans 9:16, John 1:13, John 6:65) or their own intellect (1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:16). Unsaved people can't understand the gospel (1 Corinthians 2:14; 1 Corinthians 1:18) because only initially saved people, who have received the miraculous gift of some measure of God's own Spirit, can understand it (1 Corinthians 2:11-16).

    The nonelect can't ever believe in Jesus and the gospel and be initially saved, even when they are shown the truth (John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42), because the ability to believe in Jesus and the gospel comes only to the elect (Acts 13:48b) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2) as the elect read (or hear) God's Word the Bible (Romans 10:17, Acts 13:48, Acts 26:22-23), just as the ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18). Satan blinds the minds of unbelievers so that on their own they can't repent and acknowledge the truth of God's Word (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Timothy 2:25-26).
     
  19. Gottservant

    Gottservant God loves your words, may men love them also Supporter

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    I found all this fairly interesting, there is a strong element of cohesion to your writings.
     
  20. n2thelight

    n2thelight Guest

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    2nd Thess 2:1-4
    1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,


    2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

    3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (KJV)

    In verse 4 above we see: "the son of perdition" who: "opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." Judas Iscariot never did that, Judas never said that he was God. In fact after he realized that they were really going to crucify Jesus, and that Jesus was going to let it happen; Judas threw the money that he was paid to betray Jesus down onto the temple floor.
     
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