Jesus said not peace but sword?

[ananda]

Thus, by your own words and choice and sinful life, condemned; judged by your own words.

A judge myself content. Do you judge me differently?

 

[HypnoToad]

Then how can people "fully realize", without omniscience?

Being fully cognizant of one thing doesn't make one "omniscient".

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

A judge myself content. Do you judge me differently?

Yahweh's Word says "WOE to you who are 'comfortable' now.... you will suffer later.....

 

[ananda]

Being fully cognizant of one thing doesn't make one "omniscient".

I agree, however IMO there is nothing that can be considered isolated or separate from everything else. Everything is connected in some way or another. Therefore, for full understanding, one must logically possess omniscience. And without a true full, omniscient understanding of all consequences, I cannot say that it can be considered just to impose any punishment which is eternal.

 

[ananda]

Yahweh's Word says "WOE to you who are 'comfortable' now.... you will suffer later.....

IMO that's a matter of opinion.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

IMO that's a matter of opinion.

The whole world might think the same way, and the whole world stands judged already because of unbelief, and condemned.

 

[ananda]

The whole world might think the same way, and the whole world stands judged already because of unbelief, and condemned.

I see no proof for that.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I see no proof for that.

You're not expected to see proof for that.

 

[ananda]

You're not expected to see proof for that.

I expect it for myself.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I expect it for myself.

Why ?

 

[ananda]

Why ?

It is my rigorous standard I uphold for myself, since it touches on the subject I perceive to be the most important question of all. In the answer(s) I accept, nothing can be left unsure or unstable.

 

[Halbhh]

It seems to me that wisdom is the Good way.

IMO it is not love that truly reform individuals at our deepest core. It is wisdom which does this job.

I know I can offer (politely, even when needed) even at times one of the more useful for instance of a bag of 20 wise sayings. We can find lists of wise sayings.

And that will do most people little good, or even be no aid at all.

And no matter if I say it well. If lucky it could help someone, if it's exactly what they are looking for at that very moment.

If it happens to be their perfect next step that fits just where they are at. That'd be very wise.

But they won't hear it unless it is expressed with love usually. Not if it is expressed with a sense of judgement or aloofness or superiority -- the various attitudes of not-love.

But with love, then they feel empowered to change on their own.

If I can give them real love -- accurately see them as they are and love them -- it often helps them suddenly be able to feel more able to grow -- on their own.

Their perfect next step.

One of the great things about the words Christ says is that they are said to us with His perfect love, and His amazing humble love for us is so rescuing.

And then there is the fact His words are also the best wisdom words.

Over years of time, I compared many wisdom traditions, like the Tao, and Emerson's writings, and various other wisdoms.

Jesus's words are an intersection set of all the truth from all the wisdom traditions, and more, some things I didn't find elsewhere.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

It is my rigorous standard I uphold for myself, since it touches on the subject I perceive to be the most important question of all. In the answer(s) I accept, nothing can be left unsure or unstable.

In that case, if that is true, hoping it is,
are you willing to seek the truth, and keep seeking the truth, no matter what it costs?

 

[HypnoToad]

I agree, however IMO there is nothing that can be considered isolated or separate from everything else. Everything is connected in some way or another. Therefore, for full understanding, one must logically possess omniscience. And without a true full, omniscient understanding of all consequences, I cannot say that it can be considered just to impose any punishment which is eternal.

If NOTHING is separate, then how can you separate love from eternal punishment?

 

[ananda]

If NOTHING is separate, then how can you separate love from eternal punishment?

They are separate in quality and purpose (among other things), but not separate in the sense that they are related by cause & effect and in the question of suffering.

 

[HypnoToad]

They are separate in quality and purpose (among other things), but not separate in the sense that they are related by cause & effect and in the question of suffering.

Anyway, I think you're taking "fully aware" and trying to force a hyper-literal sense to it. We use "fully aware" ("He is fully aware of what will happen.") and "fully understand" ("He fully understands the topic.") all the time in everyday conversation, and we don't imply "omniscience" with those phrases. There's no reason to think that article is implying omniscience either.

 

[ananda]

Anyway, I think you're taking "fully aware" and trying to force a hyper-literal sense to it. We use "fully aware" ("He is fully aware of what will happen.") and "fully understand" ("He fully understands the topic.") all the time in everyday conversation, and we don't imply "omniscience" with those phrases. There's no reason to think that article is implying omniscience either.

I understand that.

What I am trying to point out (as a failure of that article's argument) is that eternal punishment can only be just if the offender possessed truly full, omniscient awareness of all possible consequences for his or her transgression.

 

[HypnoToad]

What I am trying to point out (as a failure of that article's argument) is that eternal punishment can only be just if the offender possessed truly full, omniscient awareness of all possible consequences for his or her transgression.

Why is that so?

 

[Halbhh]

I understand that.

What I am trying to point out (as a failure of that article's argument) is that eternal punishment can only be just if the offender possessed truly full, omniscient awareness of all possible consequences for his or her transgression.

Indeed, God forgives those who turn from their sins by confessing/repenting. More, He forgives all their sins if they believe in Christ Jesus, Who taught us "Love one another"! And gives those who choose this Love Life eternal.

While those choosing to reject this Good simply go to the second death, were body and soul are destroyed (since these are not given eternal life like angels seem to have, and those in heaven), and so they "perish" (Christ's word translated into english), and that's an eternal punishment yes, but also fair. Choosing against Love -- against God, against Christ Jesus -- one really is choosing death.

It's not a knowledge based getting lucky and figuring out the right thing at the right time.

No.

It's much simpler --
"God is Love" as John wrote under power of the Spirit --

7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

13 This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God. 16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

17 This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus.18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

19 We love because he first loved us. 20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister."

 

[ananda]

Indeed, God forgives those who turn from their sins by confessing/repenting. More, He forgives all their sins if they believe in Christ Jesus, Who taught us "Love one another"! And gives those who choose this Love Life eternal.

While those choosing to reject this Good simply go to the second death, were body and soul are destroyed (since these are not given eternal life like angels seem to have, and those in heaven), and so they "perish" (Christ's word translated into english), and that's an eternal punishment yes, but also fair. Choosing against Love -- against God, against Christ Jesus -- one really is choosing death.

It's not a knowledge based getting lucky and figuring out the right thing at the right time.

No.

It's much simpler --
"God is Love" as John wrote under power of the Spirit --

7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

13 This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God. 16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

17 This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus.18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

19 We love because he first loved us. 20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister."

Eternal punishment still doesn't sound loving to me.