Jesus said, "as Jonas was three days and three nights", The When? + Spices?

BobRyan

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Jesus said, "as Jonas was three days and three nights",

BobRyan said:
If Jonah is not real --

If days are an unknown amount of time - possibly a billion years or "who knows" --

Then the statement Christ makes is entirely 'undefined'.

Or we could go the other way - and the Bible is reliable


Chapter 2
1 But the LORD sent a great fish to swallow Jonah, and he remained in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

As that was not real so the resurrection is "not real"?

Or as that was real - and days are known - so the resurrection event happened on the third day.

Any ideas which it is??

I pick option 2.
====================================

The point being that to even have this discussion there are "some basics" that you have to admit to --

And obviously the entire thread will not work if you hedge on the basics.

I prefer to go with real days, a real resurrection, a real Jonah, and thus Christ's proof based on "reality".


Hi Brother BobRyan.

I hope we can all stick to the format of the OP, in answering the questions according to the texts as we go along.

To allay any fears Brother BobRyan, "Yes, Jonah/Jonas was very real, and so too the events encompassing him, as it is written in the Scroll of Jonah, and as Jesus refers to the Pharisees and others."


And that is the only premise/foundation where this entire thread can even work.

I am happy to agree to it.

I am just pointing out that you have to agree on the simple stuff, the basics in the terms - to have these discussions.


[quote ] We shall see that it is defined for us by Scripture, as I am sure that you know. :)

So, I agree with you whole-heartedly, since it is according to the Scriptures that "the Bible is reliable".
[/quote]

I am not arguing against it - I am just saying that this is yet another example showing that we need to take the Bible as a reliable account of real events because even the NT Authors - and Christ himself will often appeal to "the very details" that in other contexts - some will argue are "most to be disbelieved".

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

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Is that what this thread is all about?

I am not a flat-earther fundamentalist.

Are you?

The flat-earth idea is the one that argues against the reality the Bible describes.

In this case the Bibel says Jonah is real, the whale is real, he was in the whale for "real days" and the reality of that historic account - is the "round earth" that God created...

But the flat-earth argument is that all this is fake or myth and then what do those flat-earth guys do with the fact that Christ is appealing to the very "details" in his three days claim - that the flat-earth team is most devoted to claim is "myth" and unreliable history?

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

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Where do you think Jesus was for 3 days and nights?

What/where do you think "belly/heart of the earth" is?

What do you think He was doing there?

Jesus was in the tomb for that time. Not for 3 billion years, or 3 million years but for the few days that He predicts.

And in Luke 24 we have "besides all this today is the THIRD day".

Not the "third 300 million years" or the "third billion years" -- they seem to know what a day is.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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Yes, brother!

"there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:" - Matthew 12;39

"there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas" - Matthew 16:4

"there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet" - Luke 11:29

Therefore "the" [definite article] "sign".
 
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Optimax

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Jesus was in the tomb for that time. Not for 3 billion years, or 3 million years but for the few days that He predicts.

And in Luke 24 we have "besides all this today is the THIRD day".

Not the "third 300 million years" or the "third billion years" -- they seem to know what a day is.

in Christ,

Bob

Jesus' body was in the tomb.

A tomb is not the "belly" or "heart" of the earth.
 
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Just the once?
Yes, only once! One may do a word study or search by any known method and see this.

"... in the heart of the earth ..." - Matthew 12:40

There is also no specific connection in Scripture, which relates that this term means specifically, "in the grave/tomb/sepulchre".
 
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elliott95

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Question 6.

What is the specific word for "heart", in the phrase "heart of the earth", in the Greek text, and what does it mean Scripturally?

That is the kind of question that may well take us outside of Scripture to find the pertinent answer. Even to compare it to other usages of the word heart in Scripture takes us into the arena of interpretation and discernment, which can be variable.

Purely deciding it on the plain meaning of text, we have to note that the word is used metaphorically. The heart is a biological pump, and this is something that the earth does not have.

It is not enough to know Greek, but to also know the Koine Greek of the time, and the kind of idioms that may have been used during that era.
And to compare the Greek usage with other usages of the world heart from an even more ancient time and the Hebrew language requires us to trust in the understanding of the tranlators who determine that the way word heart is used in the Old Testament is the same way that the word heart is being used here in the New Testament.
Already, I note that some people argue that the heart of the earth can only be taken figuratively because three days and three nights does not describe the actual internment. Others will note that traditional understanding is incorrect, and the internment was actually much longer. Still others might argue that the heart of the earth in this case means being delivered into the principalities that rule this earth which would have happened in the Garden of Gethsamane at his arrest.
Much depends on how one determines the word heart, in order to come up with the answer of what events, and what nature of events, this word signifies.
 
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That is the kind of question that may well take us outside of Scripture to find the pertinent answer. Even to compare it to other usages of the word heart in Scripture takes us into the arena of interpretation and discernment, which can be variable...
I would say that reply is of the Jesuitical mindset, but never-the-less, the question only seeks to know the Greek word used specifically in the text, and what that word means "Scripturally", thus only as found in Scripture, and other uses outside and extent to the Holy Scripture is therefore, excluded.

The question remains to be answered.

You may choose to not answer and cease from the thread.

I ask that you do not take this thread off topic again, as the Questions are being asked to be answered accordingly as they are asked. If you choose to no longer participate in this manner, you may begin your own thread. Thank you, and thank you for participating thus far. You have been mostly helpful up to this point.
 
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Question 6.

What is the specific word for "heart", in the phrase "heart of the earth", in the Greek text ...?
The answer is "καρδιαG2588 N-DSF"

G2588

καρδία
kardia
kar-dee'-ah
Prolonged from a primary κάρ kar (Latin cor, “heart”); the heart, that is, (figuratively) the thoughts or feelings (mind); also (by analogy) the middle: - (+ broken-) heart (-ed).


"N-DSF" -

Part of Speech: Noun
Case: Dative
Number: Singular
Gender: Feminine

As seen here -

Matthew 12:40 Greek with Strong's Numbers and Robinson's Morphological Analysis Codes - ωσπερG5618 ADV γαρG1063 CONJ ηνG1510 V-IAI-3S ιωναςG2495 N-NSM ενG1722 PREP τηG3588 T-DSF κοιλιαG2836 N-DSF τουG3588 T-GSN κητουςG2785 N-GSN τρειςG5140 A-APF ημεραςG2250 N-APF καιG2532 CONJ τρειςG5140 A-APF νυκταςG3571 N-APF ουτωςG3779 ADV εσταιG1510 V-FDI-3S οG3588 T-NSM υιοςG5207 N-NSM τουG3588 T-GSM ανθρωπουG444 N-GSM ενG1722 PREP τηG3588 T-DSF καρδιαG2588 N-DSF τηςG3588 T-GSF γηςG1093 N-GSF τρειςG5140 A-APF ημεραςG2250 N-APF καιG2532 CONJ τρειςG5140 A-APF νυκταςG3571 N-APF

Matthew 12:40 Greek - ωσπερ γαρ ην ιωνας εν τη κοιλια του κητους τρεις ημερας και τρεις νυκτας ουτως εσται ο υιος του ανθρωπου εν τη καρδια της γης τρεις ημερας και τρεις νυκτας
 
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Question 6.

What ... does it ["heart" in the Greek text] mean Scripturally?
Scripturally, we can turn to Genesis 6:5 LXX, and see the first [Alpha] use of the Greek "
καρδια" used, even in the same form as Matthew 12:40, and continue looking at it from there:

Genesis 6:5 LXX Greek with Strong's Numbers and Robinson's Morphological Analysis Codes - ιδωνG3708 V-AAPNS δεG1161 PRT κυριοςG2962 N-NSM οG3588 T-NSM θεοςG2316 N-NSM οτιG3754 CONJ επληθυνθησανG4129 V-API-3P αιG3588 T-NPF κακιαιG2549 N-NPF τωνG3588 T-GPM ανθρωπωνG444 N-GPM επιG1909 PREP τηςG3588 T-GSF γηςG1065 N-GSF καιG2532 CONJ παςG3956 A-NSM τιςG5100 I-NSM διανοειταιV-PMI-3S ενG1722 PREP τηG3588 T-DSF καρδιαG2588 N-DSF αυτουG846 D-GSM επιμελωςG1960 ADV επιG1909 PREP ταG3588 T-APN πονηραG4190 A-APN πασαςG3956 A-APF ταςG3588 T-APF ημεραςG2250 N-APF

Genesis 6:5 LXX Greek - Ἰδὼν δὲ κύριος ὁ θεὸς ὅτι ἐπληθύνθησαν αἱ κακίαι τῶν ἀνθρώπων ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς καὶ πᾶς τις διανοεῖται ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ ἐπιμελῶς ἐπὶ τὰ πονηρὰ πάσας τὰς ἡμέρας,

Genesis 6:5 KJV - And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Genesis 6:5 Hebrew Text - וירא יהוה כי רבה רעת האדם בארץ וכל־יצר מחשׁבת לבו רק רע כל־היום׃

Genesis 6:5 Hebrew Text, which the Greek is based upon, with Strong's numbers - ויראH7200 יהוהH3068 כיH3588 רבהH7227 רעתH7451 האדםH120 בארץH776 וכלH3605 יצרH3336 מחשׁבתH4284 לבוH3820 רקH7535 רעH7451 כלH3605 היום׃H3117

H3820

לֵב
lêb
labe
A form of H3824; the heart; also used (figuratively) very widely for the feelings, the will and even the intellect; likewise for the centre of anything: - + care for, comfortably, consent, X considered, courag [-eous], friend [-ly], ([broken-], [hard-], [merry-], [stiff-], [stout-], double) heart ([-ed]), X heed, X I, kindly, midst, mind (-ed), X regard ([-ed)], X themselves, X unawares, understanding, X well, willingly, wisdom.

Thus we can see by Genesis 6:5, in their respective versions, that the word used [
"καρδια" [Tr. kardia]/"לבו" [Tr. "labe"]], is associated with other words like "imagination" and "thoughts".

Furthermore, we can see that this same exact form [N-DSF] of the Greek word is found in many other texts:

New Testament, the Greek Texts:

Mt 5:8, Mt 5:28, Mt 11:29, Mt 12:40, Mt 13:15, Mt 13:19, Mt 22:37, Mt 24:48, Mk 11:23, Lk 1:66, Lk 2:19, Lk 2:51, Lk 8:15, Lk 12:45, Lk 24:25, Lk 24:38, Jn 12:40, Acts 2:37, Acts 5:4, Acts 7:39, Acts 7:51, Acts 28:27, Rom 9:2, Rom 10:6, Rom 10:8, Rom 10:9, Rom 10:10, 1Cor 7:37, 2Cor 5:12, 2Cor 8:16, 2Cor 9:7, Eph 5:19, Phil 1:7, Col 3:16, 1Thes 2:17, Heb 3:10, Jas 3:14, Rv 18:7

Old Testament, in the LXX [Septuagint, Greek Version], based upon the
Hebrew/Aramaic [Chaldee] texts, though we will be sticking with just the Scriptural uses as found in the KJV and not any apocryphal sources at this time:

Gn 6:5, Gn 20:5, Gn 20:6, Ex 25:2, Ex 31:6, Ex 35:5, Ex 35:10, Ex 36:2, Dt 6:6, Dt 8:2, Dt 8:5, Dt 8:14, Dt 8:17, Dt 9:4, Dt 15:9, Dt 15:10, Dt 18:21, Dt 19:6, Dt 20:8, Dt 28:47, Dt 29:18, Dt 30:14, Dt 32:46, JoB 2:11, JoB 23:14, JgsA 19:22, 1Kgs 1:13, 1Kgs 2:35, 1Kgs 7:3, 1Kgs 9:19, 1Kgs 12:20, 1Kgs 12:24, 1Kgs 21:13, 1Kgs 27:1, 1Kgs 29:10, 2Kgs 6:16, 2Kgs 7:3, 2Kgs 18:14, 3Kgs 2:4, 3Kgs 8:23, 3Kgs 8:48, 3Kgs 8:66, 3Kgs 10:2, 3Kgs 10:24, 3Kgs 12:26, 4Kgs 10:30, 4Kgs 10:31, 4Kgs 20:3, 4Kgs 23:3, 4Kgs 23:25, 1Chr 28:9, 1Chr 29:9, 2Chr 1:11, 2Chr 6:14, 2Chr 6:38, 2Chr 7:10, 2Chr 9:23, 2Chr 13:7, 2Chr 16:9, 2Chr 19:9, 2Chr 22:9, 2Chr 25:2, 2Chr 29:31, 2Chr 32:31, 2Chr 34:31, 2Chr 35:19b, 1Esd 1:21, 2Esd 7:10, 2Esd 7:27, Est 1:1l, Jdt 6:9, Jdt 8:28, Jdt 10:16, Jdt 11:1, Jdt 11:10, Jdt 13:4, TbBA 4:13, TbBA 13:6, TbS 2:2, TbS 4:2, TbS 6:7, TbS 13:6, 1Mc 6:10, 1Mc 6:11, 1Mc 8:25, 1Mc 9:7, 1Mc 9:14, 1Mc 12:28, 2Mc 1:3, 3Mc 5:47, Ps 7:11, Ps 9:2, Ps 9:27, Ps 9:32, Ps 9:34, Ps 10:2, Ps 11:3, Ps 12:3, Ps 13:1, Ps 14:2, Ps 23:4, Ps 31:11, Ps 35:11, Ps 36:14, Ps 36:31, Ps 39:11, Ps 44:6, Ps 52:2, Ps 57:3, Ps 61:5, Ps 63:11, Ps 65:18, Ps 72:1, Ps 73:8, Ps 75:6, Ps 83:6, Ps 85:12, Ps 89:12, Ps 93:15, Ps 93:19, Ps 94:10, Ps 96:11, Ps 100:5, Ps 108:16, Ps 110:1, Ps 118:2, Ps 118:10, Ps 118:11, Ps 118:34, Ps 118:58, Ps 118:69, Ps 118:145, Ps 124:4, Ps 137:1, Ps 139:3, Ode 7:41, Ode 8:87, Prv 3:5, Prv 4:21, Prv 6:14, Prv 10:8, Prv 10:22, Prv 12:20, Prv 13:12, Prv 14:33, Prv 18:4, Prv 19:3, Prv 19:21, Prv 20:5, Prv 23:34, Prv 26:24, Prv 28:26, Qoh 1:16, Qoh 2:1, Qoh 2:3, Qoh 2:15, Qoh 2:20, Qoh 3:11, Qoh 3:17, Qoh 3:18, Qoh 9:3, Qoh 9:7, Jb 22:22, Jb 33:23, Jb 36:13, Jb 37:24, Jb 38:2, Wsd 8:17, Sir 1:28, Sir 2:13, Sir 7:27, Sir 12:16, Sir 14:21, Sir 16:23, Sir 16:24, Sir 19:4, Sir 19:5, Sir 21:6, Sir 21:17, Sir 25:7, Sir 39:35, Sir 45:26, Sir 47:8, PsSol 1:3, PsSol 8:3, Hos 7:2, Ob 1:3, Zep 2:15, Is 6:10, Is 9:8, Is 38:3, Is 44:18, Is 44:19, Is 46:8, Is 47:7, Is 47:8, Is 47:10, Is 49:21, Is 51:7, Is 57:1, Is 60:5, Is 61:1, Jer 5:24, Jer 7:31, Jer 12:11, Jer 13:22, Jer 19:5, Jer 23:26, Jer 36:13, Jer 39:41, Ez 6:9, Ez 27:4, Ez 27:25, Ez 27:26, Ez 27:27, Ez 28:2, Ez 28:8, Ez 44:7, Ez 44:9, DnOG 1:8, DnOG 2:30, DnOG 3:41, DnOG 3:87, DnOG 4:28, DnOG 7:28, DnTh 3:41, DnTh 3:87, DnTh 7:28, DnTh 8:25

Other forms of the Greek word may be found expressed here - lexicon . katabiblon . com/index.php?lemma=%CE%BA%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%B4%E1%BD%B7%CE%B1

Going back to our current form of the Greek word [N-DSF], we see the same also in Matthew 13:15, as in other places:

Matthew 13:15 with Strong's Numbers - ForG1063 thisG5127 people'sG2992 heartG2588 is waxed gross,G3975 andG2532 their earsG3775 are dull of hearing,G191 G917 andG2532 theirG848 eyesG3788 they have closed;G2576 lest at any timeG3379 they should seeG1492 with their eyes,G3788 andG2532 hearG191 with their ears,G3775 andG2532 should understandG4920 with their heart,G2588 andG2532 should be converted,G1994 andG2532 I should healG2390 them.G846

Mathew 13:15
Greek with Strong's Numbers and Robinson's Morphological Analysis Codes - επαχυνθηG3975 V-API-3S γαρG1063 CONJ ηG3588 T-NSF καρδιαG2588 N-NSF τουG3588 T-GSM λαουG2992 N-GSM τουτουG3778 D-GSM καιG2532 CONJ τοιςG3588 T-DPN ωσινG3775 N-DPN βαρεωςG917 ADV ηκουσανG191 V-AAI-3P καιG2532 CONJ τουςG3588 T-APM οφθαλμουςG3788 N-APM αυτωνG846 P-GPM εκαμμυσανG2576 V-AAI-3P μηποτεG3379 ADV-N ιδωσινG3708 V-2AAS-3P τοιςG3588 T-DPM οφθαλμοιςG3788 N-DPM καιG2532 CONJ τοιςG3588 T-DPN ωσινG3775 N-DPN ακουσωσινG191 V-AAS-3P καιG2532 CONJ τηG3588 T-DSF καρδιαG2588 N-DSF συνωσινG4920 V-2AAS-3P καιG2532 CONJ επιστρεψωσινG1994 V-AAS-3P καιG2532 CONJ ιασωμαιG2390 V-ADS-1S αυτουςG846 P-APM

Matthew 13:15 Greek Text - επαχυνθη γαρ η καρδια του λαου τουτου και τοις ωσιν βαρεως ηκουσαν και τους οφθαλμους αυτων εκαμμυσαν μηποτε ιδωσιν τοις οφθαλμοις και τοις ωσιν ακουσωσιν και τη καρδια συνωσιν και επιστρεψωσιν και BAιασομαι TSιασωμαι αυτους

This time we see again that the people were to "understand" with "their heart". This again confirms the first Genesis use, and further if we turn to last [Omega] use of this form of the Greek word, in Revelation 18:7, we see the words connected as, "
she saith in her heart".

Other uses and forms are also connected with the "spirit" - Psalms 51:10,17 of a man, and as such as that "he thinketh in his heart, so is he" - Proverbs 23:7, etc.
 
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BobRyan

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Question 7.

What is the maximum and minimum amount of Scriptural time that the phrase "three days and three nights" can cover? Please cite one or two examples from Scripture in demonstration of the answer.

Luke 24 says "today is the 3rd day" since the crucifixion - so that makes Friday day 1, Saturday day 2, and Sunday day 3.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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Perhaps some help with the Question 7 is in order, so that we may have a more detailed response from the Scripture.

The Scripture delineates when the Day [time] ends and when Night [time] begins,and what constitutes a standard Day:

Genesis 1:5 KJV - [5] And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Job 38:12 KJV - [12]
Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;

Judges 19:9, 25 KJV - [9] And when the man rose up to depart, he, and his concubine, and his servant, his father in law, the damsel's father, said unto him, Behold, now the day draweth toward evening, I pray you tarry all night: behold, the day groweth to an end, lodge here, that thine heart may be merry; and to morrow get you early on your way, that thou mayest go home. ... [25] But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go.

Mark 1:32 KJV - [32] And at even, when the sun did set, they brought unto him all that were diseased, and them that were possessed with devils.

Luke 1:78 KJV - [78]
Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,

* Jesus is called the "Sun of Righteousness" which would "arise" - Malachi 4:2, etc


How can we find out if there are a specific number of hours in a standard Day? Let us turn again to Scripture:

John 11:9 KJV - [9]
Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.

Jesus said that there are normally "twelve hours" in the standard "day" time, which would also mean that there would be "twelve hours" also for the Night time. God from the beginning had separated the Light and Dark parts of the Day equally, and as through seasons came, the hours of each would fluctuate between one another.

Yet the Scripture also includes mere portions of any given part of "day" or "night" to count for a whole day. For instance -
Genesis 7:4,10, 17:12, 42:17-19; 2 Chronicles 10:5,12; Esther 4:16, 5:1; Luke 1:59, 2:21; Acts 10:3-30, etc.

Thus the Maximum Time that the "day and night" portion of a single day [without Divine intervention] can be is 24 hrs and so the Maximum Time of the phrase "three days and three nights" would be 72 hours.

Night - 12 Hours
Day - 12 Hours
Night - 12 Hours
Day - 12 Hours
Night - 12 Hours
Day - 12 Hours

The Minimum time then for a single "day and night" could then be any portion of that "day" and any portion of that "night", thus even a measurement of mere minutes. We could count from 1 minute to Sunset, and 1 minute after Sunset, and still accurately represent the singular phrase "day and night" in a given context.

Notice that it does not have to be the Maximum, nor of the Minimum, but anywhere at either end and in between.

Context will determine for us how to proceed in determining whether we need to understand the Maximum, the Minimum or somewhere in between them.

We also know that we are not merely dealing with a single "day and night", but rather "three days and three nights".

This means that the Maximum amount of time can only be 72 hrs, being consecutive in time due to context, but that the Minimum amount of time can be approximately 48 hrs and 2 minutes, or even mere seconds in technicality or if Rabinical time, 3rd star visibly appears. See the inclusive reckoning:

Night - 1 minute before daylight, sunrise, etc
Day - 12 hours
Night - 12 hours
Day - 12 hours
Night - 12 hours
Day - 1 minute after daylight, sunrise, etc

There are other uses of the word Day, in Scripture which are also representative of either Prophetic time or of time "with the LORD". In those specific instances then, a "Day", being both of the "light" and "dark" parts:

[1] "each day for a year" - Numbers 14:34; Ezekiel 4:6, etc.

These speak when God is dealing with Prophetic time, but notice that the Prophetic time is based in the Literal 24hr Day of Genesis.

[2] "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" - 2 Peter 3:8

"For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night." - Psalms 90:4

* Please note that 2 Peter 3:8 and Psalms 90:4 do not speak of plurality of thousand, but singular. These passages speak of the "Days" "with the LORD", from Creation, since this earth is approx 6,000 years old as of this point, and there is to come a final 1,000th year, being the 7,000th year, found in Revelation 20. These "Days" "with the LORD" are again based in the 7 Literal Days of Genesis. Hence the final "Day", the 7th Day of the Cosmic Week of God is known as the "Day of the LORD", being based in the LORD's Day, the 7th Day Sabbath of the Week.

It is obvious we are not dealing with either of these two in the "three days and three nights" of Jonah/Jonas, since the context reveals that we are dealing with regular days - Jesus basing His "three days and three nights" in the foundation of Jonas'.

Jonah 1:17 KJV - [17] Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

Matthew 12:40 KJV - [40] For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

We simply have to understand the Events of Jonah, and where we are to begin counting for Jesus' "three days and three nights", which are based in Jonah's historical events. We will need to further consider what the "heart of the earth" is, in relation to Jonah being in the Sea Creature.
 
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