I regret trying to create a discussion.

[holyrokker]

I regret trying to create a discussion.

 

[Albion]

Can we talk about this myth?

If Jesus died to "pay" for our sins, then we have not truly been forgiven.

? If your debt has been paid, is it not forgiven?

 

[ByTheSpirit]

It's like financial debt. Jesus even uses that analogy in a parable. Luke 7:36-50

When I owe someone money, I am in debt until the debt is paid. Once it is paid I am released from that debt and free.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Can we talk about this myth?

If Jesus died to "pay" for our sins, then we have not truly been forgiven.

If Jesus "paid the penalty" for our sins, we have not truly been forgiven.

Do you hold to the notion that Jesus "paid" for our sins? If so, what is the scriptural basis of our opinion?

You are correct. That idea comes from Jonathan Edwards book, "Sinners in the hands of an angry God".

Forgive me...

 

[Rick Otto]

Can we talk about this myth?

If Jesus died to "pay" for our sins, then we have not truly been forgiven.

If Jesus "paid the penalty" for our sins, we have not truly been forgiven.

Do you hold to the notion that Jesus "paid" for our sins? If so, what is the scriptural basis of our opinion?

Not sure who you mean "our".
He only paid for the sins of those God for-determined to when planning His creation.
Basis?
OK, but pardon my brevity:

1 Corinthians 6:20

For you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

1 Peter 2:24
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Isaiah 53:5
But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

1 John 4:10
In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

1 Corinthians 7:23
You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men.

John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.

Romans 5:6
For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

Ephesians 1:7
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

Romans 5:8
But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Isaiah 53:1-12
Who has believed what he has heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed. ...

Colossians 1:13
He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,

Colossians 2:10-20
And you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. ...

Hebrews 10:12
But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,

Romans 4:25
Who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

Galatians 3:13-14
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

Romans 3:25
Whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

John 1:29
The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

There is no debt to the Father.

Christ Jesus is the man in the garden who created and spoke with Adam. Christianity 101 (This is what the Jews hated about Christians. Changing the story so to speak.)

Forgive me...

 

[Albion]

There is no debt to the Father.

THAT is true. Are we sure that this is what the OP was talking about? Hopefully so, because it didnt seem to make sense otherwise.

 

[holyrokker]

I regret trying to create a discussion.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Not sure who you mean "our".
He only paid for the sins of those God for-determined to when planning His creation.
Basis?
OK, but pardon my brevity:

John 1:29
The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

So you post some Calvinist mumbo jumbo and then quote John 1:29 which plainly says Christ takes away the sins OF THE WORLD. Either Christ died for the "predetermined" or he died for the world.

 

[Albion]

No. They are two different things.

Suppose I owe you $10,000,000. If you forgive my debt, you have lost the money. Nothing has been paid. You could rightfully claim that you forgave my debt.

If Jimmy pays you the $10,000,000 on my behalf, the debt is paid in full.
You could not claim to have forgiven my debt.

What you asked, however, was whether the debt had been forgiven. In the example you gave, it obviously has been. But what you are saying here seems to confirm that you are making the mistake that OrthodoxyUSA referred to.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Time out...
Everybody go read how the early Church explained it... circa year 300 ad
Read just the first two chapters...
On the Incarnation of the Word - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Notice that a debt to the Father is not part of the conversation.

Forgive me...

 

[pescador]

You are correct. That idea comes from Jonathan Edwards book, "Sinners in the hands of an angry God".

Forgive me...

"Sinners in the hands of an angry God" was a sermon that Jonathan Edwards preached in 1741, not a book.

When I heard it in church recently I was appalled at the judgmental cruelty of its content.

 

[holyrokker]

I regret trying to create a discussion.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

"Sinners in the hands of an angry God" was a sermon that Jonathan Edwards preached in 1741, not a book.

True enough... you can only find it in book form.

Forgive me...

 

[pescador]

There is no debt to the Father.

Christ Jesus is the man in the garden who created and spoke with Adam. Christianity 101 (This is what the Jews hated about Christians. Changing the story so to speak.)

Forgive me...

There is no scriptural basis for saying Christ Jesus was the man in the garden who created and spoke with Adam. The Bible says God, not the Messiah.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

When I heard it in church recently I was appalled at the judgmental cruelty of its content.

AND.... He was wrong.

Forgive me...

 

[holyrokker]

I regret trying to create a discussion.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

There is no scriptural basis for saying Christ Jesus was the man in the garden who created and spoke with Adam. The Bible says God, not the Messiah.

John chapter 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

 

[pescador]

No. They are two different things.

Suppose I owe you $10,000,000. If you forgive my debt, you have lost the money. Nothing has been paid. You could rightfully claim that you forgave my debt.

If Jimmy pays you the $10,000,000 on my behalf, the debt is paid in full.
You could not claim to have forgiven my debt.

This is word play. If you pay a debt, the debt is forgiven. That is the clear and simple meaning.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

The Father has never appeared in human form. Only the Son.

Forgive me...