Jesus' Own Words on the End Times

[Al Touthentop]

It seems pretty clear from these passages that the elect can only be meaning the church.

You know there was a church in Jerusalem in AD 70 right?

 

[DavidPT]

Did they see Jesus coming in power and glory?

"and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

This of course only makes sense if this coming is at the end of this age. To place it in 70 AD is to make nonsense out of the coming in great glory part.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

This passage, OTOH, makes perfect sense out of why He is seen coming in both power and great glory in the Discourse.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Which they did. But you leave off that he said earlier this wasn't him literally coming in person. They would see the sign of the son of man. Jesus wasn't answering a question they didn't ask. He gave them a clear set of signs to help them escape the tribulation that was coming.

It says they saw him, not just his sign.

 

[DavidPT]

You know there was a church in Jerusalem in AD 70 right?

Yes I know that. According to history records, only unbelieving Jews were slaughtered during 70 AD. Those connected with the church escaped before any harm could be done to them. How then does it make sense, assuming the tribulation of those days are meaning the events of 70 AD, that these days are cut short for the sake of the elect?

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Mark 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.


Clearly it is the elect whom great tribulation is being unleashed on. This makes zero sense if we make this about the events of 70 AD only.

 

[Al Touthentop]

But that wasn't the worst calamity to be inflicted upon mankind in any sense. Even the one million Jews killed by the Romans pales compared to the Holocaust. And the Holocaust pales compared to the 30-60 million killed in WW2. And these events will pale compared to the tribulation that Jesus spoke of.

If you read Josephus' account, you'll see that it probably was the worst. On the other hand, God has never been one to leave hyperbole off the table as a rhetorical tool. He did invent language after all. In the context of the conversation, to those who would be alive when the events happened, it would be the worst tribulation they'd ever face.

The city was besieged for three years. No food went in or out. They began to eat their own children to survive.

It also is possible Jesus wasn't using hyperbole. Dresden - written about in Vonnigut's Slaughter House Five was over in one night. The holocaust was spread over a large area and time and people were able to escape and survive it. No Jews in Jerusalem survived. Even the Jews who escaped Jerusalem were chased to Masada and besieged there. Those survivors committed mass suicide rather than surrender to the Romans.

Pretty much, I think this was in fact the worst tribulation a group of people has had to face.

 

[Al Touthentop]

It says they saw him, not just his sign.

It says they WOULD see him coming on the clouds 'in power and glory,' not in person. And then he also says all of it would happen within that generation. We know he didn't personally appear but we sure know that everything he said would happen to Jerusalem happened. Eye witness testimony of those events exists and doesn't mention Jesus appearing personally. But Josephus himself says that he believed God's hand was in that siege.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Yes I know that. According to history records, only unbelieving Jews were slaughtered during 70 AD. Those connected with the church escaped before any harm could be done to them. How then does it make sense, assuming the tribulation of those days are meaning the events of 70 AD, that these days are cut short for the sake of the elect?

Cut short so that they wouldn't be deceived and be caught up in the siege. I mean, that seems obvious enough to me. Why do you not see that as a possibility?

 

[Al Touthentop]

It says they saw him, not just his sign.

It says they would see him in power and glory, not in person. In fact, the scriptures prior say that some Christians would be deceived by people claiming to be him. So that alone tells us that he wouldn't be coming in person. Wouldn't the people who knew him recognize his person? There were many people before and after who claimed to be the Messiah. But none would be delivering judgement on Jerusalem.

 

[GaveMeJoy]

The bible was canonized by the church long before any so-called authoritative council ever sat down. Even the council of Nicea, which did not attempt to dictate canon, used the 27 books that had already been accepted as holy writ to settle the question of Jesus' divinity. The 27 books were listed as authoritative by about 120-140.

A great book which touches on this is Shelley's 'A Brief History of the Church in Plain Language.'

I’m aware. After 400ish and until 1500 the church kept a tight grasp on the scripture, making sure it only existed in Latin which few could read. You could be burned at the stake during the reformation for having the scripture in your own language, especially in Spain. The Catholic Church then actively discouraged laypeople from reading the word until the 1900s. Very sad

 

[OldWiseGuy]

It says they would see him in power and glory, not in person. In fact, the scriptures prior say that some Christians would be deceived by people claiming to be him. So that alone tells us that he wouldn't be coming in person. Wouldn't the people who knew him recognize his person? There were many people before and after who claimed to be the Messiah. But none would be delivering judgement on Jerusalem.

Jesus coming on the clouds in power and glory only ever refers to his end time appearance.

 

[sovereigngrace]

It says they saw him, not just his sign.

Acts 1:11: “Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

This passage tells us it is the actual “manner” or tropos (meaning style or mode) of His glorious ascent into heaven is the way He will return.

How did He go?

Literally, physically, visibly.

•Physically: “This same Jesus.”
•Visibly: “while they beheld, he was taken up” - “as ye have seen Him go.”
•Literally: “In like manner.”

There were 11 witnesses that saw Jesus taken up in a cloud into heaven. What witnesses do we have that actually saw Jesus come in AD70 literally, physically and visibly?

Christ's coming shall be sudden as lightning. What is more sudden, visible and spectacular than lightning (Matthew 24:27)? Lightning is not hid! It can be seen by all across the sky. This is no secret or figurative appearance in this text.

When and how did Jesus "send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and … gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" back in AD70 (Mat 24:31 and Mark 13:27)?

 

[DavidPT]

It says they would see him in power and glory, not in person. In fact, the scriptures prior say that some Christians would be deceived by people claiming to be him. So that alone tells us that he wouldn't be coming in person. Wouldn't the people who knew him recognize his person? There were many people before and after who claimed to be the Messiah. But none would be delivering judgement on Jerusalem.

Comparing some of your arguments to the actual texts involved, some of your arguments are making no sense.

There is no coming of Christ in any sense during the trib of those days meant in the Discourse. His coming is after those days are fulfilled and already in the past. To then argue as you do above makes no sense, since His coming is after the trib of those days. It's obvious, according to the texts, that He cannot come in person during the trib of those days. I doubt anyone disputes that, yet you never know these days. How does that make it impossible for His coming to be in person after the trib of those days, based on it being impossible for Him to be coming in person during the trib of those days? After the trib of those days is not the same as the trib of those days.

 

[Semper-Fi]

(from my understanding, none of the content in the Book of Revelation actually came from Jesus...)

Thanks for any additional info!

Go read a red letter bible in revelations,
then get back to us.

the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

 

[lsume]

Hi,

Most of what we are told to expect for the End Times comes from the Book of Revelation from what I understand, but what did Jesus HIMSELF say regarding the End Times?? (from my understanding, none of the content in the Book of Revelation actually came from Jesus...)

Thanks for any additional info!

Why all of the focus on the end times? If you absolutely knew that Christ was returning in the physical realm tomorrow, what would you do differently today when compared to any other day. Absolutely know that God The Father, God The Son and God The Holy Spirit are very real. The Lord has shown me the evil of the enemy. I should qualify that by saying only to my ability to handle it. Though the aforementioned be true, I have still sinned in my life. I don’t believe that I have to sin. Christ has set me free. However, somehow I still have managed to sin. Had I known each time that I was sinning, I would like to believe that I would not have done so. However, I really don’t think that’s true. Anyway back to my original question. Why do you focus on the end times. The odds are much better that you are living in your end times. Christ Tells us to be wise and aware. However I’m very convinced that the whole end times scenario is incorrect as to what most people believe and is also a misappropriation of time and talent intended for The GodHead.

 

[DavidPT]

Why all of the focus on the end times? I

Maybe it's because of the section of the board we are currently in---Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum---being one good reason. Therefore some of us are at least trying to remain focused on what this section of the board is supposed to be for.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Hi,

Most of what we are told to expect for the End Times comes from the Book of Revelation from what I understand, but what did Jesus HIMSELF say regarding the End Times?? (from my understanding, none of the content in the Book of Revelation actually came from Jesus...)

Thanks for any additional info!

There are different views, including on whether or not the Revelation talks about the "end times". Many understand the Revelation as not describing a future "end of the world", but rather describes in graphic, figurative language the circumstances of the time it was written. With a forward-looking understanding that the same Jesus who was raised from the dead and who has conquered death and Hades is the same Jesus who will come again to judge, and the life we look forward to in the Age to Come--the new heavens and the new earth--is the hope we bring with us into this life as we face the trials, tribulations, and challenges of this present world.

Jesus Himself doesn't say much, the Olivet Discourse (such as in Matthew 24-25) is chiefly focused on the future destruction of the Temple and the challenges the early Christians would face. When the Lord talks about looking out for signs, they are signs about the destruction of the Temple. Jesus does talk about His future Parousia, but He specifically says there are no signs, no way to know when He will return, He says it will be as it was in the days of Noah where people were eating, drinking, and getting married when all of a sudden, the flood came. In the same way Christ's return will be without warning, He says that only God knows the day and hour of His return, and tells His disciples to be ever-vigilant for they do not know when their Lord will return. He then gives two parables about how His coming will be at a time we don't know or expect, and so we should be vigilant and ready at all times.

As such, the Christian Church has never dogmatized the "end times", but instead has confessed that Christ will return in glory to judge the living and the dead, and His kingdom is without end; and we look to the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting in the Age to Come. So aside from Christ's Parousia, the resurrection of the dead, the Last Judgment, and the renewal of all things in the Age to Come, there has never been a dogmatic "this is what will happen".

-CryptoLutheran

 

[lsume]

Maybe it's because of the section of the board we are currently in---Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum---being one good reason. Therefore some of us are at least trying to remain focused on what this section of the board is supposed to be for.

Thank you. I’m still probably unaware of my lapse in judgement here. Everything for a reason.

 

[Al Touthentop]

There is no coming of Christ in any sense during the trib of those days meant in the Discourse.

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Immediately after the tribulation of what days? Apart from the fact that immediately is a pretty specific word not meaning two thousand or more years later, there may be two tribulations here.

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many."

This is a tribulation that they were not going to escape. They would suffer this tribulation. Then he talks about another tribulation.

And he warns them that when they see the armies surrounding Jerusalem to get out and don't even wait one minute. Don't even get your coat. Get out. And if you don't:

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

So it appears there are two tribulations, one they would suffer, and another they could escape if they heeded his warnings. This escapable tribulation is the great tribulation.

His coming is after those days are fulfilled and already in the past. To then argue as you do above makes no sense, since His coming is after the trib of those days. It's obvious, according to the texts, that He cannot come in person during the trib of those days.

His coming is immediately after the tribulation of "those days."

What does he say about all the things he's already told them?

34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

His statement that they would see the sign of the Son of Man in heaven was included in "all these things." He tells them explicitly that everything he's related would happen in their lifetime. The only way to "get around" this is to redefine "this generation" to something longer term like "Jewish race."

The problem with that approach is that the word γενεα used there (η γενεα αυτης) ιs never translated race in the bible. There's another related word for race (γενον) but that's not the word he used. There is a reason that passage is translated "this generation" there and that's because it means exactly that. The generation alive at that time.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Jesus coming on the clouds in power and glory only ever refers to his end time appearance.

Well then, he's already come. Because he said that this would happen in the lifetime of those he was speaking to. I don't believe that of course but your assertion that he was talking about his second coming means that it is already happened and it hasn't.

 

[JacksBratt]

Hi,

Most of what we are told to expect for the End Times comes from the Book of Revelation from what I understand, but what did Jesus HIMSELF say regarding the End Times?? (from my understanding, none of the content in the Book of Revelation actually came from Jesus...)

Thanks for any additional info!

Actually, the book of Revelations came directly from Jesus as He revealed it to John.

Revelation 1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.