Jesus Loves You

[ephraimanesti]

What he taught was not based on an understanding of the Torah, which does not tell us to wait for some ultimate perfect sacrifice or that we cannot keep the Law that God gave us.

MY BROTHER,

And the Prophets? Jesus is on almost every page of Isaiah, for example. The fact that the Jews were unable and/or unwilling to interpret and/or accept the prophecies which described Jesus quite clearly, does mean that God did not provide the Jews with all the information necessary for their Salvation. Of course not--the Jew are God's Chosen People.

Hopefully, the same mistake won't be made the Second and last time Messiah comes. One thinks of Jesus saying Kaddish for Jerusalem on His first visit,

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! Look, your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.' " (Luke 13:34-35)

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[b&wpac4]

And the Prophets? Jesus is on almost every page of Isaiah, for example. The fact that the Jews were unable and/or unwilling to interpret and/or accept the prophecies which described Jesus quite clearly, does mean that God did not provide the Jews with all the information necessary for their Salvation. Of course not--the Jew are God's Chosen People.

So I keep being told, but then I see just how many hoops need to be jumped through to make the passages refer to Jesus. It seems that God really really wanted to make it as obscure as possible instead of making it obvious.

 

[ephraimanesti]

Your beliefs sadden me because you make God a deceiver at best. When God told the Children of Israel that they could keep the Law, you believe He was lying because it was impossible.

MY BROTHER,

Jesus is a Jew. He alone, faultlessly kept the Law--completely, perfectly, salvifically.

Just as all sinned in Adam, all kept the Law in Jesus.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[ephraimanesti]

So I keep being told, but then I see just how many hoops need to be jumped through to make the passages refer to Jesus. It seems that God really really wanted to make it as obscure as possible instead of making it obvious.

MY BROTHER,

It IS obvious--to those who are seeking the Truth. To those invested in maintaining the status quo--Scribes, Pharisees, Sadducees, and their present day heirs--all will always be hidden. (It's called "Straining at gnats and swallowing camels" and produces spiritual blindness.)

Why is it those who have become Messianic Jews have had no problem identifying He of whom the Prophets spoke?

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[b&wpac4]

Jesus is a Jew. He alone, faultlessly kept the Law--completely, perfectly, salvifically.

Just as all sinned in Adam, all kept the Law in Jesus.

So, when God said to people "you can keep the Law", God meant "Jesus can keep the Law", but didn't reveal that at the time to prove a point?

I'm sorry, but it just seems like you have to twist the Torah into knots to make this all fit.

 

[b&wpac4]

Why is it those who have become Messianic Jews have had no problem identifying He of whom the Prophets spoke?

Because they are Christians. There is not theological difference between a Messianic Jew and your average Evangelical Christian. They just keep some cultural ties that, oddly enough, are rabbinic.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Because they are Christians. There is not theological difference between a Messianic Jew and your average Evangelical Christian. They just keep some cultural ties that, oddly enough, are rabbinic.

I must admit I am a little confused on Messianic Judaism, as it is with the EO's according to this post on the GT board. Shalom

http://www.christianforums.com/f80/
General Theology

http://www.christianforums.com/t7455700-61/#post54437402
We cannot embrace Judaism and Christianity.

 

[ephraimanesti]

Because they are Christians. There is not theological difference between a Messianic Jew and your average Evangelical Christian. They just keep some cultural ties that, oddly enough, are rabbinic.

MY BROTHER,

i wouldn't say "oddly enough"--i find nothing in God's will "odd." They are Jews who have found their promised Messiah.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[b&wpac4]

i wouldn't say "oddly enough"--i find nothing in God's will "odd." They are Jews who have found their promised Messiah.

So they claim. Their claims are Christian claims. They are Christians, not Jews.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

In my experience, most messianic Jews are simply Christians with a couple of stars of David and fancy candelabras thrown in for flavour.

Now, to be completely fair: that may very well be due to the fact that Judaism as we know it today didn't stop developing on its own after the 1st century - so both Rabbinic Judaism and Christianity share a common ancestor, but one that is somewhat distinct from both.

 

[b&wpac4]

Now, to be completely fair: that may very well be due to the fact that Judaism as we know it today didn't stop developing on its own after the 1st century - so both Rabbinic Judaism and Christianity share a common ancestor, but one that is somewhat distinct from both.

Which is the problem exactly. The customs they usually keep are from the Rabbinic line. Wearing a Kippah, saying a blessing before eating, etc. So, they are trying to meld their Christian beliefs with Jewish culture. Many of them aren't even Jews by Jewish law, but gentiles who feel this is the "correct place".

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

MY BROTHER,

i wouldn't say "oddly enough"--i find nothing in God's will "odd." They are Jews who have found their promised Messiah.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

Remember ole doubting Thomas? He wouldn't believe until he actually saw the nail wounds in Jesus's feet and hands and touch his side.

Blessed are those who have not seen, yet believe

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Zechariah 13:5 And he-hath-said, `Not a prophet I , a man/0376 'iysh serving ground I.
That 'adam caused-me-to-acquire from youth of me.
6 And he says to me: "what the-wounds/04347 makkah, the-these, between hands of thee"?
And he says: "which I was smitten/05221 nakah, house of lovers of me............

John 20:24 And Thomas, one of the twelve, who is called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came;
25 the other disciples, therefore, said to him, `We have seen the Lord;'
and he said to them, `If I may not see in his hands the mark of the nails, and may put my finger to the mark of the nails, and may put my hand to his side, I will not believe.'

 

[b&wpac4]

Zechariah 13:5 And he-hath-said, `Not a prophet I , a man/0376 'iysh serving ground I.
That 'adam caused-me-to-acquire from youth of me.
6 And he says to me: "what the-wounds/04347 makkah, the-these, between hands of thee"?
And he says: "which I was smitten/05221 nakah, house of lovers of me............

You may want to reconsider using Zechariah as a proof for Jesus, or to connect that passage to Jesus in anyway. Read in context, it is clearly speaking about false prophets in the messianic age who are thrust through for speaking falsely about God.

Read the entire chapter and you'll see.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You may want to reconsider using Zechariah as a proof for Jesus, or to connect that passage to Jesus in anyway. Read in context, it is clearly speaking about false prophets in the messianic age who are thrust through for speaking falsely about God.

Read the entire chapter and you'll see.

Shalom

I have read it thru many times and vs 6 mentions "house of lovers", and as a Christian, I can relate that to the corrupt muderous Judean rulers/priesthood that were trying to kill Jesus.
Look at Matthew 23 for example

Zechariah 13:6 And he says to me: "what the-wounds/04347 makkah, the-these, between hands of thee"?
And he says: "which I was smitten/05221 nakah, house of lovers of me

ISA) Matthew 23:2 saying "upon the Seat of Moses are seated the Scribes and the Pharisees [Reve 2:13/16:10]
38 Lo! left to ye desolate the House of ye!

 

[b&wpac4]

Shalom

I have read it thru many times and vs 6 mentions "house of lovers", and as a Christian, I can related that to the corrupe muderous Judean rulers/priesthood that were trying to kill Jesus.
Look at Matthew 23 for example

You can relate it to that if you wish, but, again, the chapter speaks of those who prophecy falsely against God who are wounded by loved ones because of what they are doing.

Unless you want to claim that Jesus was false, and wounded because of that, it's a bad chapter to use.

 

[ephraimanesti]

So, when God said to people "you can keep the Law", God meant "Jesus can keep the Law", but didn't reveal that at the time to prove a point?

MY BROTHER,

The purpose of the Law was to convince the Jews that they needed Messiah to do for them what they could not do for themselves--keep the Law:

"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing law; rather through the law we become conscious of our sinfulness." (Romans 3:20)

Reading through the Old Testament, that fact should be very clear without a shadow of a doubt!

As Paul puts it, "What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. . . .So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith." (Galatians 3:19, 24)

So God gave the Law--along with His demand that the Jews keep in--in order to allow His people to prove to themselves that they couldn't keep it no matter how they tried. Jesus, alone, kept the law and faith in Him alone,through the Grace of God, appropriates that success for ourselves:

"Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes." (Romans 10:1-4)

I'm sorry, but it just seems like you have to twist the Torah into knots to make this all fit.

Well, i think that kind of brings us back around to our former agreeing to disagree agreement. Peace out!

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You can relate it to that if you wish, but, again, the chapter speaks of those who prophecy falsely against God who are wounded by loved ones because of what they are doing.

Unless you want to claim that Jesus was false, and wounded because of that, it's a bad chapter to use.

Sorry I was unclear.
The only ones that appeared to see Jesus as a false prophet were the Jewish rulers who were supposed to sheperding/guiding the flock of Israel, but were doing it their way instead of God's way.

John 10:33 Answered Him, the Judeans saying, "About a good work not we are stoning Thee but about blasphemy, and that Thou, being a man, are making thyself a God".
[Reve 16:11,21]

Romans 2:23 Who in law are boasting through the transgression of the Law, the God thou are dishonoring
24 'For the name of the God because of ye, is being blasphemed in the nations' according as it has been written.
[Psalm 74:10]

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

*snip*

MY BROTHER,..........

Well, i think that kind of brings us back around to our former agreeing to disagree agreement. Peace out!

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

We are allowed to do that here

 

[b&wpac4]

MY BROTHER,

The purpose of the Law was to convince the Jews that they needed Messiah to do for them what they could not do for themselves--keep the Law:

I notice you say that's clear in the Jewish Bible, but you can only apparently quote the New Testament to prove your point. I am less than shocked.

Well, i think that kind of brings us back around to our former agreeing to disagree agreement. Peace out!

Very well.

 

[razeontherock]

Based on his writings, he wasn't a very good student since he came away with the flawed idea that one should be perfected by keeping the Law.

Eh? He contrasted your covenant with mine, to show what your's can never do and why it's beneficial to switch. (Or to put it in OT terms, to choose life)
Which apparently all Rabbis agree with, otherwise they wouldn't discourage conversion to Judaism as being "harder." By your own words.