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Jesus is the SON not the Father.

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by edpobre, Sep 8, 2001.

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  1. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

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  2. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

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    Please take special note of the last two sentences. Quite a declaration, indeed. INC, is stating that there is no other Church of Christ apart from Iglesia ni christo.

    INC is stating that Salvation is not by Christ alone/Faith alone. INC is stating that No One shall be saved other than those that are in the supposed Real Church, Iglesia ni cristo.
     
  3. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
    gunnysgt,

    This shows how LITTLE you know about Jesus Christ! FYI, the CHURCH of Christ is the BODY of Christ (Ephesians 1:22-23) of which Christ is the HEAD (Col. 1:18). Hence, the CHURCH (body) and Christ who died on the cross (head) comprises the ONE NEW man which Christ CREATED in himself in order to make pece with God (Eph. 2:15).

    Thus, "IN Christ" means being INSIDE the BODY of Christ or INSIDE the CHURCH of Christ. Apostle Paul wrote that "there is therefore now NO condemnation to those who are "IN Christ Jesus" (INSIDE his body)..." (Rom. 8:1) because "IN him"we have REDEMPTION through his blood, the FORGIVENESS of sins, according to the riches of his grace (Eph. 1:7).

    The CHURCH (Christ's BODY), is the IGLESIA NI CRISTO. Thus, OUTSIDE the IGLESIA NI CRISTO, there is NO redemption and forgiveness of sins.

    Ed
     
  4. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

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  5. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
    The IGLESIA NI CRISTO is the TRUE church of Christ in these last days. This is the  SAME first-century church that Christ PURCHASED with his own blood (Acts 20:28). This is the SAME  first-century church that Christ GAVE his life for (Eph. 5:25). This is the SAME first-century church which is the BODY of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23) of which Christ is the HEAD (Col. 1:18). This is the SAME first-century church that Christ WILL save (Eph. 5:23).

    Thus, ONLY members of the IGLESIA NI CRISTO WILL be saved!


    That's TRUE! The work of Christ on the cross is NOT sufficient in of itself for salvation.  Jesus himself SAID: "Most assuredly I say to you, I am the DOOR of the sheep. I am the DOOR. If anyone ENTERS by me, he WILL be saved..." John 10:7,9).

    One must ENTER the FOLD or FLOCK in order to be SAVED. That fold or flock is the IGLESIA NI CRISTO, the TRUE church of Christ in these last days.

    That's also true. Jesus SAID to his DISCIPLES (members of the first-century church of Christ): "Because it has been GIVEN to YOU to KNOW the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to THEM (those who are NOT members of the first-century church of Christ) it has NOT been given" (Matt. 13:11).

    The IGLESIA NI CRISTO is the TRUE church of Christ in these last days. It has been GIVEN to them to KNOW The mysteries of the kingdom of heaven THROUGH a MESSENGER commissioned by God THROUGH Bible PROPHECIES.

    Ed 

     
     
  6. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

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    Felix Manalo-Founder of Iglesia ni Cristo-The 5th angel?
     
  7. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37


    Can't you do better than this gunnysgt? Why can't you reply to this yourself?
     
  8. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

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    Felix Manalo founder of Inglesia ni Christo


    2PET 2:1 But there were false prophets among the people, as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly put forward wrong teachings for your destruction, even turning away from the Lord who gave himself for them; whose destruction will come quickly, and they themselves will be the cause of it.

    2PET 2:2 And a great number will go with them in their evil ways, through whom the true way will have a bad name.

    2PET 2:3 And in their desire for profit they will come to you with words of deceit, like traders doing business in souls: whose punishment has been ready for a long time and their destruction is watching for them.
     
  9. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
    "My dear friends,

    do not believe all who claim to have the spirit, but test them to find out if the spirit they have comes from God. For many false prophets have gone out everywhere.

    This is how you will be able to know whether it is God's Spirit: anyone who acknowledges that Jesus Christ CAME as a HUMAN BEING has the Spirit who comes from God. But anyone who DENIES this about Jesus does NOT have the Spirit of God. The spirit that he has is the ENEMY of Christ; you heard that it would come, and now it is here in the world already" (1 John 4:1-3 Today's English Version).

    Trinitarians DENY that Jesus Christ CAME as a  HUMAN being. They TEACH that Jesus Christ CAME as God who BECAME a MAN.

    Do Trinitarians have the Spirit of God? The Bible says NO! Those who PERSECUTE the Iglesia Ni Cristo are TRINITARIANS. Should you believe them? The Bible says NO!

    Ed



     
     
  10. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

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    Alpha and Omega


    The Trinity: The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit


    Is the Creedal Doctrine of Trinity Biblical


    A brief declaration and vindication of the Trinity


    The following links provide information regarding Iglesia ni Cristo, it's founder, their doctrine, who they state Jesus is?, what Salvation is according to their man-made doctrinal beliefs, the control they adminster to it's members, their deceptive practices, and the claims of the founder, Felix Manalo and his belief that he is spoken of in scripture as a messenger of God/The 5th angel.

    There is a considerable amount of data that has been gathered on Iglesia ni Cristo, much of it from their own publications and former members.

    I believe it is well worth the time reading over the information regarding Iglesia ni Cristo, indeed.


    Examine Iglesia ni Cristi

    http://members.tripod.com/insiders_inc/

    http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/i00.html

    http://www.letusreason.org/igleidir.htm

    http://members.tripod.com/~janchung/table_of_contents.html

    http://members.tripod.com/~janchung/false_messenger.html

    http://members.tripod.com/xcrusaders/angeleast.html

    http://www.adeptsys.com/chrysalis/Pages/info/iglesia.html

    http://www.nossumus.net/iglesyanikristo/lesson11.html

    http://www.examineiglesianicristo.com/honesty4.html

    http://thebereans.net/qa-realname.shtml
     
  11. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

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    Christian
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Posted by edpobre: "I wonder if Einstein would agree to this "out of space" equation!"

    I wonder if you have read 1 cor. chapter 1. God says that he delights in the fact that man finds Himself as foolishness.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Posted by edpobre: "You really are FORCING a square peg into a round hole Ben. How can Jesus, a SEPARATE personality, be ABSOLUTE God when he does NOT know EVERYTHING the Father knows?"


    Got something for you here ed... look this up.

    Revelation chapter 19:12

    take care

    FOW
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols. (Isaiah 42:8)


    Ed... who is the Lord of Glory?

    scroll down








    1 Corinthians 2:8-- None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I find it strange that edpobre has yet to address this post... been here for over a month I think... in various threads... each about this topic.

    Posted by ed: I know what is in the Bible fow. But that is not my question. I said you are NOT being RATIONAL because you said that this "thing" who is at the the side of the Father is "one and the SAME thing as the Father." BTW, what is this you cal "thing" fow?

    you are the one that refered to 'thing'

    Posted by ed: "Then show me the verse which says that the Father BECAME the SON."

    The Bible says: (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

    The Bible says: (John 1:1-5, 14) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    The Bible says: (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

    The Bible says: (Phil 2:5-10) Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in APPEARANCE as a man, he HUMBLED HIMSELF and BECAME obedient to death--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (Reminder: God will not give His glory to another... He is the LORD and Him alone), that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    The Bible says this was necessary: (Hebrews 9:14) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

    The Bible says: (Hebrews 9:16-17) In the cse of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living.

    Did God not make the covenant???

    The Bible says: (Rev 19:16) On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. (Remeber God says that I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols. (Isaiah 42:8)


    well ed.... Christ says that HE is the Alapha and the Omega... the Beginning and the End... the First and the Last..... as does the Father. I ask you ed... are they not claiming the saim thing??? if two things come in first in a race... are they not of equal speed??? simple

    ed's reply: If that's how you think, do you admit then that you believe there are two "Gods" whom you pass off as "things?"

    No ed... that's not how I think.. They both say it ed... God says that there are no others... therefore they are one... they are both the Alpha and the Omega... the Beginning and the End... ther FIRST AND THE LAST!!!

    Why did God create the earth ed??? It was because He desired a love relationship with a creation... Love ed... "Through Him all things were made that have been made" (John 1)... God is Love (1st John 4:8)... and through His love, He came to us. (also John 1) There are not two separate 'things' as you say ed... there is one Living God who is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. He is undescribable... and says that He IS.

    When God made Himself a man... it was His love.... Jesus Christ... and He subjected himself to endure mans punishment, and subservience. This was His sacrifice, that He became our sins... God the Father can not be in the presence of sin, much less become it. Therefore, out of His uncomprehendible love... He made Himself nothing. He came to us and His name is Jesus Christ-Emmanuel-God with us: Yes... God can do that, even becoming something on earth, while at the same time being God the Father in Heaven. Yes... God can do any number of "evens" that one could fathom asking.

    Christ, who being in very nature God, who made Himself nothing, became subject to God the Father... and at the end when all things were finished, was taken again into glory and given the title KING OF KINGS AND LORD OR LORDS... ALL CAPS ED. This is the title reserved for the LORD HIMSELF... WHO WILL NOT GIVE HIS GLORY TO ANOTHER... IT IS THE TITLE OF MY LORD CHRIST WHO IS RISEN FROM THE GRAVE HAVING DEFEATED DEATH... AND THE KEYS OF DEATH AND HADES RESIDE IN HIS HANDS! And after it is all over... Christ will subject Himself to the Father thus the Father becomes all in all. Christ is God... who made>HIMSELF<a man... and who was then again glorified by Him from whom He came

    I believe
     
  12. logix

    logix New Member

    3
    +0
    Whew...watch out...here comes a brick!
    Plunk.
    Allow me to sharpen your senses brother, but first...Id like to 'define' you, set you apart
    so that I may understand you.....

    Either your an all "loving" Christian, never discerning, never willing to define exactly
    right from wrong. Or, your a poll taking Christian, some one with a list at the mall,
    excuse me sir, do you accept the Trinity a)true b)false, do you tithe a) yes b)no....,
    until youve decided where to place your brothers/sisters faith.

    Both approaches fail.

    You fit the second standard, A)true B)false? :)

    Now allow me to stand on the shoulders of the greats, and open your mind.

    I will use the "doubt" of John the Baptist to open you up.

    John was what? a)christian b)gentile c)Jewish Theologian

    C. good thats 10 points.

    Now as a Jewish Theologian in the second temple period (what a period) Jewish boys
    learned from oral teachers. By the age of 10 the dedicated boys had commited to
    memory the entire books of Moses. We can believe John boy was a dedicated child. So What?

    Yeah, its a big deal. You see Jesus like John was a Jewish Theologian, and that is why
    much of what He says is paralled in Rabbinic literature, and points toward the promises
    of the "OT".

    Keep up. Were about to put the feet to the ground and run to God.

    Now when John the dedicated man was in prison he began to doubt. What does he do?
    A)Attempt a break out B)Give up C)Send questions to Jesus

    C. good another 10 points.

    Now the important part is in the answer Jesus the Jewish Theologian gives John.

    Whew we are running.

    Luke 7:21-23 "Jesus Warns John"

    "At that very time, he cured many people of their various diseases, and he cast out
    evil spirits and restored sight to the blind. Then he told Johns disciples, "Go back
    to John and tell him what you have seen and heard--the blind see, the lame walk,
    the lepers are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised to life, and the Good News
    is being preached to the poor. And tell him, 'God blesses those who are not offended
    by me"

    Wow...

    What is Jesus talking about?

    He has alluded to the promised Messiah, you see John had misunderstood the mission
    of Jesus and so Jesus says hey John remember the passages of Isaiah!

    Now what do the passages alluded to by Jesus say?

    Isaiah 29:18-19 and 35:5-6 all speak of the deaf hearing, blind seeing.....

    Now for the clincher....

    John had asked Jesus in so many words, "Who are you?"

    Jesus replied to John with scripture, and John being the devote Jewish theologian
    would have instantly recalled the scriptures in Isaiah which refer to Jesus. He
    would have come to:

    Isaiah 42:7-8

    "Jesus who are you"

    "John look at Isaiah."

    "You will open the eyes of the blind and free the captives from prison. You will release those who sit in dark dungeons."

    "I AM THE LORD; THAT IS MY NAME! I WILL NOT GIVE MY GLORY TO ANYONE ELSE. I WILL
    NOT SHARE MY PRAISE WITH CARVED IDOLS."

    Jesus says, hey John...budy I am the LORD......:)

    That is very rought attempt at explaining some very deep material. For a better understanding, check out Jesus the Jewish Theologian, Dr. Brad Young or look
    up Dr. Roy Blizzards tape series. There great!

    As far as your quote of the Baptism of Jesus, it is taken out of its Hebrew setting
    and therefore renderend incomplete and without understanding.

    Jesus refers to himself as "The son of Man", but is he only refering to being human?

    Or is it that sometimes he is refering to being a man, and at others he is refering to
    himself as God? "Son of Man" Daniel 7:13

    Either way, brother....stop shouting hellfire on believers! Your wrong to do so.

    God Bless,
    logix

    Bless means speak well of, God spoke the world into existence, imagine when He
    speaks of YOU!!!!!!
     
  13. EveOfGrace

    EveOfGrace Member

    137
    +0
    Logix now THAT was enlightening.

    I have read this&nbsp;thread from start to .....present and i do not recall seeing someone(except you)&nbsp;post&nbsp;the words Son of Man.&nbsp;

    Thank God.

    &nbsp;Some say since Jesus is the Son of&nbsp;God, it&nbsp;automatically proves He is not God, but rather&nbsp;ONLY the Son. That being the Son is the ONLY&nbsp;possible state of His&nbsp;being.&nbsp;That praying to the Father, proves He exists, forever,&nbsp;ONLY as a Son to God.&nbsp;&nbsp;Could we all remember one fact?&nbsp; Jesus WAS man for the sake of ONE purpose.&nbsp; Yes, He became man, flesh, for a time.&nbsp;&nbsp;For that period of time and&nbsp;therefore henceforth, He was and is now&nbsp;ALSO known as the Son of God.&nbsp; Therefore, AS a man, and AS the Son,&nbsp;of course He prayed.&nbsp;&nbsp;But ALSO, He forgave, not as the Son, or not JUST as man, but as God.&nbsp; Does being the&nbsp;Son, enclosing Spirit in flesh, &nbsp;exlude all other forms of being?&nbsp;&nbsp;That is to say, does being the Son, limit Him to ONLY being that?&nbsp;

    I am a daughter&nbsp;to my mother.&nbsp; Yet, i am a mother&nbsp;to my sons.&nbsp;I am&nbsp;one person, so how is it i can be both daughter and mother? I wasnt always a mother, but one day, i became one, even though i had already existed as a daughter.&nbsp;&nbsp;I do not leave my daughterhoood behind to become also a mother.&nbsp;&nbsp;So it is with God, the Father and God, the Son.&nbsp;&nbsp;Same&nbsp;God, but for the purpose of redeeming man,&nbsp;The&nbsp;Word of GOD, which ALREADY existed, became the&nbsp;Son, and&nbsp;ALSO, as i did with the birth of my own son, BECAME the Father.&nbsp;

    So, if Jesus was ONLY the Son of&nbsp;God, how then does he refer to Himself as the Son of man?&nbsp; Because He&nbsp;exists, always as&nbsp;God(who is Spirit)&nbsp;but&nbsp;ALSO as manifestations&nbsp;of and for a purpose.

    Do we get that even a little?

    EveOfGrace

    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;

    &nbsp;
     
  14. greymooncrest

    greymooncrest go to greymooncrest®

    74
    +1
    Non-Denom
    I have a question...
    What is God (Jesus) going to inherit (which isn't already his)?
    and Who is he going to inherit it from?

    I would like to know.
     
  15. EveOfGrace

    EveOfGrace Member

    137
    +0
    Gee mooncrest, i would think as the Son of God, the Son would&nbsp; then be heir to the throne?&nbsp; He sits now, on the right hand of&nbsp;God the Father, till His enemies are made His footstool.&nbsp;&nbsp;When He comes back it is as King of Kings so therefore would he not be inheriting the right of&nbsp;reign?&nbsp; And thus, we also, as joint heirs,&nbsp;reign with Him.&nbsp;

    Is that what you mean?

    &nbsp;
     
  16. drmmjr

    drmmjr Regular Member

    459
    +7
    Christian
    But, EveOfGrace, while it is true that you are both a daughter and mother, you are not your mother. As you point out, you are the mother of your sons. True, you and the person that bore you are both mothers, but you are not the same mother.
     
  17. greymooncrest

    greymooncrest go to greymooncrest®

    74
    +1
    Non-Denom
    Yea, That's it.....

    All of this reading was making my eyes blurry, I just needed a reality chech.

    &nbsp;;)
     
  18. EveOfGrace

    EveOfGrace Member

    137
    +0
    :scratch:

    drmmjr, I really just was making a point that if I can be Me, Eve, AND a daughter, and a mother,&nbsp;all at once, then surely&nbsp;we cannot limit God.&nbsp; That similarly, it IS possible for&nbsp;God to be God and yet&nbsp;the Son.&nbsp;&nbsp;I&nbsp;do see your point, that i am not my own mother,&nbsp;and therefore Jesus would not be His own father. HOwever,&nbsp;before I was Eve, i was of my father.&nbsp;If i were a man, i would bear his name,&nbsp;as my own son does his.&nbsp;&nbsp;

    God being&nbsp;Spirit(and the Father of them and all creation),&nbsp;did not have a seed like my own father, but&nbsp;His Word,&nbsp;His Spirit&nbsp;was what caused&nbsp;Mary to conceive. She did not carry a mans seed, but the Spirit&nbsp;Himself.&nbsp;&nbsp;Jesus was begotten,&nbsp;Spirit sent inside flesh.&nbsp;&nbsp;Emmanuel, God with us. The Spirit does not divide and become separate from itself, as a mans seed would.&nbsp; The Spirit of God is the Father of creation. That is why Jesus said, if you have seen Me, you have seen the&nbsp;Father.&nbsp;&nbsp;And why when Jesus, as Son, prayed, He said OUR Father. Because God IS and always WAS the father, that didnt change&nbsp;when Jesus became flesh. The Spirit always remains the same.

    &nbsp;&nbsp;Adam was created much the same way, not from a man, but from Gods own breath, His Spirit.&nbsp; Except Adam did separate himself&nbsp;through sin.&nbsp;Being the Son of God, and the Son of Man,&nbsp;Jesus also then is our elder brother,&nbsp;and by accepting Him&nbsp;we too become sons of God and partakers of that same Spirit. All in all.&nbsp; Jesus told us, if He did not go away, the Spirit would not come.

    He also is our High Priest.&nbsp;Who has become a surety of a better covenant.&nbsp;

    My main point here, becoming the Son&nbsp;to dwell among us,&nbsp;did not dismiss Him from still being God. Nor would being High Priest, nor the&nbsp;Son&nbsp;of Man, nor our elder Brother.&nbsp;Again, He is Spirit and His Spirit always remains the same. To simpy say. Jesus was/is the Son, and therefore cannot be God, implies that Gods&nbsp;Spirit&nbsp;can be divided, like a physical thing, and not be in more than one place at one time.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;He can remain God, and for a purpose, still also become whatever is necessary to fulfull His own Word.&nbsp;&nbsp;He is God.&nbsp;

    EveOfGrace

    &nbsp;
     
  19. EveOfGrace

    EveOfGrace Member

    137
    +0
    LoL greymooncrest :D
     
  20. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
    Holy cow greymooncrest! You're right! If Jesus were God, why should he be an heir? If he is co-equal with the Father, what is it that the Father has that he hasn't?

    And to think that I am a "joint-heir" with Christ! Why didn't I think of this before?

    Ed
     
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