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Jesus is the Archangel Michael??

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by Dale, Jul 27, 2017.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Only if you suppose that the Angel of the Lord and Michael are not the same person... which we do not.

    details matter.

    We are not arguing that someone else needs to agree that Michael is the Second person of the Godhead ... God the Son and also called "The Angel of the LORD" - as we do..

    But we do argue for "getting it right" in otherwords no "strawman arguments" - freely oppose what we actually believe - that's fine.. but no need to make stuff up for us to believe as if we do believe whatever someone else would like to construct for us.
     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    We do not argue that you must agree with us that the archangel Michael is also the "Angel of the Lord" who is the 2nd person of the Godhead - infinite God himself. Feel free to differ with us on that... that is fine.
     
  3. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Except that Michael is not a created angel! He is Jesus, just as it is Jesus that is the Captain of the Host and the Angel of the Lord. The angel of the Lord is not a created angel and you said that He is Jesus---so why is archangel not Jesus also, just another title, if Angel of the Lord is not an angel?? That does not add up, to me!! However, if you want to believe archangel and angel of the Lord are different, it's your prerogative to do so. But we can go back and forth on this until we hear the voice of the Archangel and find out for ourselves---so I think maybe it's time to let the issue sit on our laps--OK?
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Comparing the OP to the actual position of Adventists on the subject.

    And of course Jehovah's Witnesses DO NOT teach that the Angel of the Lord , and the Archangel Michael are one and the same person as infinite God - the second person of the Godhead, Jesus.. but SDAs like Ellen White do. (Even though this is not one of the 28 fundamental beliefs and never has been.. not even in the 1800's)

    so we get this response to the OP
    Which would be a logical conclusion - were the accusation made in the OP - actually true.

    That is the "Actual difference" ... Jesus = Angel of the Lord = Infinite God = 2nd person of the Godhead = Michael the archangel... as one and the same person. One God in three persons with the second person being identified above.

    As compared to the OP "SAME as the Jehovah's Witnesses" who in fact do NOT teach that Michael is infinite God - the second person of the Godhead..

    So we can see that some may not agree with this name being ALSO applied to the second person of the Godhead who are not SDA -- and that is fine. That is where the real difference is.
     
  5. Tim Ray

    Tim Ray Member

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    Dale
    Let me clear up this false teaching you have heard, maybe even from an Adventist. First, I'm sure we both would agree that not all members of various faiths clearly understand all that their faith teaches. Therefore, none of us using this forum should be spreading hearsay about someones else's faith group without first confirming what they intend to put before this forum, before they research the publications of that faith groups first. Getting their facts from the source and not second or third hand, and worst of all just hearsay.

    Does this not sound reasonable, honorable, and Christ like?

    Now I will quote and reference from the, (Seventh-day Adventist Answer Questions on Doctrine, pgs. 396,398)

    Q. What is the actual teaching of Seventh-day Adventists regarding the "scapegoat" in the sanctuary service? Do you hold that the sins of the righteous are rolled back on Satan, so that in the end he becomes your sin bearer?

    A. Now concerning my sin, Christ died for my sins (Rom. 5:8)...His blood alone cleanses me from all sin (1 John 1:7). The atonement for my sin is made solely by the shed blood of Christ.

    Dale, I hope this relieves the worry you have over this issue. Too, I think it would be Christ like for you to offer the readers of this forum a sincere apology for spreading something that is totally false.
     
  6. pasifika

    pasifika Well-Known Member

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    Angel of the Lord”...so who is the Lord? And how many Lord(s)?...give you a hint... Ephesians 4:5..ONE Lord, one faith, one baptism, ONE God and Father of All....

    Ephesians 1:2...Grace and peace to you from God our Father And the Lord Jesus Christ...

    so neither the Lord or God is called “Angel of the Lord”...
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Matt 28:19 "in the NAME of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit "
    Deut 6:4 "The LORD your God is ONE"
    John 10:30 "I and the Father are ONE"
    John 17:22 "that THEY may be ONE even as WE are ONE"

    ONE God in THREE persons
     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    You should be worried about it -- it is a false accusation

    1. that is not part of our 28 fundamental beliefs and never was.
    2. We never claimed that Satan would die "for us" in any way - his death will not be a substitutionary atoning sacrice
    3. The scapegoat of Lev 16 is not a sin offering... once identified the term "THE Sin OFFERING" in Lev 16 only applies to the Lord's goat.
    4. We accept the fact that Satan is guilty not only for his sins, not only for tempting his own loyal followers , but he has ADDED guilt for tempting and harassing those who are not at all his own followers and that added guilt is what he is accountable for in Lev 16 -- in addition to all his other guilt. That added guilt is only known to the "myriads and myriads" in Dan 7:10 after the judgment completes.

    I like that optimism... nice! :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2020
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    false accusations seem to be a pattern there

    1. the book "The Assumption of Moses" was not written by SDAs - it was written before the time of Christ.
    2. That book is quoted in Jude regarding the resurrection of Moses -- and Jude was not a member in the SDA denomination at the time.
    3. Moses stands WITH CHRIST in glory before the cross - in Matthew 17 - and Matthew was not a disciple of Ellen White.
    4. That happens because there has been ONE Gospel in all of time Gal 1:6-9 according to Paul and THAT Gospel was "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8 -- a bible fact known to Seventh-day Adventists but not WRITTEN by Seventh-day Adventists. Hence Moses and Elijah are both with Christ in Glory in Matthew 17 - fully saved under that ONE Gospel.

    Bible details are always getting in the way of false accusations.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2020
  10. pasifika

    pasifika Well-Known Member

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    So who are the three persons? Any of them called angel of the Lord?
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    according to this post "yes"

     
  12. pasifika

    pasifika Well-Known Member

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    How about according to the Bible since the three persons who mentioned are from the Bible?
     
  13. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Post the Scripture that confirms your opinion! UNTILL YOU DO it is just an opinion and nothing more to me.

    Before you start looking allow me to help you...…….
    The Bible nowhere identifies Jesus as Michael or any other angel, for that matter.

    ALL angels were Created BY Jesus Christ my dear.

    IF you would spli away from the false teachings of the SDA you could learn a lot of REAL BIBLE stuff.
     
  14. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    LOOK at the post again Bob.

    1. NO ONE said the SDA wrote that. It was said that the SDA CLAIM or as most understood...embrace the idea.

    2. No one said he was. Jude was probably Southern Baptist.

    3. YES he did. That was the Transfiguration and Moses represent the Law. And as what was posted stands.....The SDA claim that Moses resurrected from the dead before the Israelites crossed the Jordan in many ways is far more dangerous. It seems to make Moses the equal or near-equal of Christ.

    4. It happened because of their FAITH. Just as did Abraham, they believed the Word of God. God preached to Abraham at the time he was about to offer Issac. That is the picture of the gospel where a ram took the place of a man just as Jesus took our place in death for us.
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    false accusations seem to be a pattern there

    1. the book "The Assumption of Moses" was not written by SDAs - it was written before the time of Christ.
    2. That book is quoted in Jude regarding the resurrection of Moses -- and Jude was not a member in the SDA denomination at the time.
    3. Moses stands WITH CHRIST in glory before the cross - in Matthew 17 - and Matthew was not a disciple of Ellen White.
    4. That happens because there has been ONE Gospel in all of time Gal 1:6-9 according to Paul and THAT Gospel was "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8 -- a bible fact known to Seventh-day Adventists but not WRITTEN by Seventh-day Adventists. Hence Moses and Elijah are both with Christ in Glory in Matthew 17 - fully saved under that ONE Gospel.

    Bible details are always getting in the way of false accusations.

    LOOK at my response

    SDAs admit to what is in the book "The Assumption of Moses" quoted by JUDE in the Bible.

    SDAs admit to the fact of Matthew 17 where Moses stands WITH Christ in glory.
    1. you cannot blame Adventists for the resurrection of Moses before the cross.
    2. you cannot blame Adventists for the Bible fact that Moses stands with Christ in glory in Matthew 17 before the cross.
    3. Just like you cannot blame Adventists for the fact that Enoch and Elijah ascended to heaven - translated - before the cross, before Christ rose from the dead -- and so then Elijah also standing with Christ in glory in Matthew 17 before the cross.

    All of them saved by that "one and only Gospel" of Gal 1:6-9


    Well then we have at least one Bible detail admitted to and agreed upon - Moses IN glory WITH Christ - BEFORE the cross.

    I will take that.

    because we are aware of the book 'the Assumption of Moses" quoted in the book of Jude

    to each his own you are welcome to your own summations of course. good luck with that.

    on the contrary -- it puts in "in glory with Christ before the cross" in Matt 17
    . It happened because of their FAITH. Just as did Abraham, they believed the Word of God. They accepted the Gospel
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2020
  16. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    But you agreed that the angel of the Lord is Jesus! So why the double standard? The angel of the Lord , the archangel---0ow can your angel be Jesus and archangel not be?? They are one and the same---by your definition, the ANGEL OF THE Lord clan not be Jesus, yet you have men worshipping Him.
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    While that is a good argument of course - there is also this.

    1. There is no doctrine in the SDA 28 fundamental beliefs saying that Christ is Michael.
    2. There is no requirement that other people agree with us that of the many names and titles given to God the Son, the second person of the Trinity -- Michael is one of them.

    If all they want to do is "differ" on point 2.. fine. what difference does it make?
     
  18. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    That is why it makes no sense to me to accept one angel as Jesus (angel of the Lord)but say another angel is an angel and therefore can not be Jesus and Captain of the Host is accepte4d as Jesus. This is just not consistent.
    Captain of the Host has the same connotation that archangel has. Leader of them---and why not---since He created them. It is not a point of salvation.
     
  19. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Why do you ask a question that has already been answered? The angel of the Lord, Captain of the Host, Archangel---are ALL another name for the pre-incarnate Christ. Again, You say the Angel of the Lord is Christ, but refuse to admit that archangel is also Jesus, though both use the word angel! YOU ARE TOTALLY INCONSISTANT. There are many names for God. Many of which call Him something that if taken literally, would mean He is something He obviously is not---such as Lamb--He is not an actual animal, lamb. Just as He is not an actual angel--Angel of the Lord. Here are some other names for Him, He has many!!

    A
    ABBA (Romans 8:15)
    ADVOCATE (I John 2:1 kjv)
    ALMIGHTY (Genesis 17:1)
    ALL IN ALL (Colossians 3:11)
    ALPHA (Revelation 22:13)
    AMEN (Revelation 3:14)
    ANCIENT OF DAYS (Daniel 7:9)
    ANOINTED ONE (Psalm 2:2)
    APOSTLE (Hebrews 3:1)
    ARM OF THE LORD (Isaiah 53:1)
    AUTHOR OF ETERNAL SALVATION (Hebrews 5:9)
    AUTHOR OF OUR FAITH (Hebrews 12:2)
    AUTHOR OF PEACE (1 Cor. 14:33)
    AVENGER (1 Thessalonians 4:6)

    B
    BEGINNING (Revelation 21:6)
    BISHOP OF SOULS (1 Peter 2:25)
    BLESSED & HOLY RULER (1 Timothy 6:15)
    BRANCH (Jeremiah 33:15)
    BREAD OF GOD (John 6:33)
    BREAD OF LIFE (John 6:35)
    BREATH OF LIFE (Genesis 2:7, Revelation 11:11)
    BRIDEGROOM (Isaiah 62:5)
    BRIGHT MORNING STAR (Revelation 22:16)
    BUCKLER (2 Sam.22:31 kjv,Psalm 18:2 kjv, Psalm 18:30 kjv,Proverbs 2:7 kjv)

    C
    CAPTAIN OF SALVATION (Hebrews 2:10)
    CARPENTER (Mark 6:3)
    CHIEF SHEPHERD (1 Peter 5:4)
    CHOSEN ONE (Isaiah 42:1)
    CHRIST (Matthew 22:42)
    CHRIST OF GOD (Luke 9:20)
    CHRIST THE LORD (Luke 2:11)
    CHRIST, SON OF LIVING GOD (Matthew 16:16)
    COMFORTER (John 14:26 kjv)
    COMMANDER (Isaiah 55:4)
    CONSOLATION OF ISRAEL (Luke 2:25)
    CONSUMING FIRE (Deut. 4:24, Heb. 12:29)
    CORNERSTONE (Isaiah 28:16)
    COUNSELOR (Isaiah 9:6)
    CREATOR (1 Peter 4:19)
    CROWN OF BEAUTY (Isaiah 28:5)

    C
    DAYSPRING (Luke 1:78)
    DELIVERER (Romans 11:26)
    DESIRED OF ALL NATIONS (Haggai 2:7)
    DIADEM OF BEAUTY (Isaiah 28:5)
    DOOR (John 10:7 kjv)
    DWELLING PLACE (Psalm 90:1)

    E
    ELECT ONE (Isaiah 42:1)
    EMMANUEL (Matthew 1:23 kjv)
    END (Revelation 21:6)
    ETERNAL GOD (Deut. 33:27)
    ETERNAL LIFE (1 John 5:20)
    ETERNAL SPIRIT (Hebrews 9:14)
    EVERLASTING FATHER (Isaiah 9:6)
    EVERLASTING GOD (Genesis 21:33)
    EXCELLENT (Psalm 148:13 kjv)

    F
    FAITHFUL & TRUE (Revelation 19:11)
    FAITHFUL WITNESS (Revelation 1:5)
    FATHER (Matthew 6:9)
    FIRSTBORN (Rom.8:29, Rev.1:5, Col.1:15)
    FIRSTFRUITS (1 Cor.15:20-23)
    FORTRESS (Jeremiah 16:19)
    FOUNDATION (1 Cor. 3:11)
    FOUNTAIN OF LIVING WATERS (Jeremiah 2:13)
    FRIEND (Matthew 11:19)
    FULLERS’ SOAP (Malachi 3:2 kjv)

    G
    GENTLE WHISPER (1 Kings 19:12)
    GIFT OF GOD (John 4:10)
    GLORY OF THE LORD (Isaiah 40:5)
    GOD (Genesis 1:1)
    GOD ALMIGHTY (Genesis 17:1)
    GOD OF THE WHOLE EARTH (Isaiah 54:5)
    GOD OVER ALL (Romans 9:5)
    GOD WHO SEES ME (Genesis 16:13)
    GOODNESS (Psalm 144:2 kjv)
    GOOD SHEPHERD (John 10:11)
    GOVERNOR (Psalm 22:28 kjv)
    GREAT HIGH PRIEST (Hebrews 4:14)
    GREAT SHEPHERD (Hebrews 13:20)
    GUIDE (Psalm 48:14)

    H
    HEAD OF THE BODY (Colossians 1:18)
    HEAD OF THE CHURCH (Ephesians 5:23)
    HEIR OF ALL THINGS (Hebrews 1:2)
    HIDING PLACE (Psalm 32:7)
    HIGHEST (Luke 1:76)
    HIGH PRIEST (Hebrews 3:1)
    HIGH PRIEST FOREVER (Hebrews 6:20)
    HOLY GHOST (John 14:26)
    HOLY ONE (Acts 2:27)
    HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL (Isaiah 49:7)
    HOLY SPIRIT (John 15:26)
    HOPE (Titus 2:13)
    HORN OF SALVATION (Luke 1:69)
    HUSBAND (Isaiah 54:5, Jer. 31:32, Hosea 2:16)

    I
    I AM (Exodus 3:14, John 8:58)
    IMAGE OF GOD (2 Cor. 4:4)
    IMAGE OF HIS PERSON (Hebrews 1:3 kjv)
    IMMANUEL (Isaiah 7:14)
    INTERCESSOR (Romans 8:26,27,34 Hebrews 7:25)

    J
    JAH (Psalm 68:4 kjv)
    JEALOUS (Exodus 34:14 kjv)
    JEHOVAH (Psalm 83:18 kjv)
    JESUS (Matthew 1:21)
    JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD (Romans 6:23)
    JUDGE (Isaiah 33:22, Acts 10:42)
    JUST ONE (Acts 22:14)

    K
    KEEPER (Psalm 121:5)
    KING (Zechariah 9:9)
    KING ETERNAL (1 Timothy 1:17)
    KING OF GLORY (Psalm 24:10)
    KING OF JEWS (Matthew 27:11)
    KING OF KINGS (1 Timothy 6:15)
    KING OF SAINTS (Revelation 15:3)

    L
    LAMB OF GOD (John 1:29)
    LAST ADAM (1 Cor. 15:45)
    LAWGIVER (Isaiah 33:22)
    LEADER (Isaiah 55:4)
    LIFE (John 14:6)
    LIGHT OF THE WORLD (John 8:12)
    LIKE AN EAGLE (Deut. 32:11)
    LILY OF THE VALLEYS (Song 2:1)
    LION OF THE TRIBE OF JUDAH (Revelation 5:5)
    LIVING GOD (Daniel 6:20)
    LIVING STONE (1 Peter 2:4)
    LIVING WATER (John 4:10)
    LORD (John 13:13)
    LORD GOD ALMIGHTY (Revelation 15:3)
    LORD GOD OF HOSTS (Jeremiah 15:16)
    LORD JESUS CHRIST (1 Cor. 15:57)
    LORD OF ALL (Acts 10:36)
    LORD OF GLORY (1 Cor. 2:8)
    LORD OF HARVEST (Matthew 9:38)
    LORD OF HOSTS (Haggai 1:5)
    LORD OF LORDS (1 Tim. 6:15)
    LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS (Jeremiah 23:6)
    LOVE (1 John 4:8)
    LOVINGKINDNESS (Psalm 144:2)

    M
    MAKER (Job 35:10, Psalm 95:6)
    MAJESTY ON HIGH (Hebrews 1:3)
    MAN OF SORROWS (Isaiah 53:3)
    MASTER (Luke 5:5)
    MEDIATOR (1 Timothy 2:5)
    MERCIFUL GOD (Jeremiah 3:12)
    MESSENGER OF THE COVENANT (Malachi 3:1)
    MESSIAH (John 4:25)
    MIGHTY GOD (Isaiah 9:6)
    MIGHTY ONE (Isaiah 60:16)
    MOST UPRIGHT (Isaiah 26:7)

    N
    NAZARENE (Matthew 2:23)

    O
    OFFSPRING OF DAVID (Revelation 22:16)
    OMEGA (Revelation 22:13)
    ONLY BEGOTTEN SON (John 1:18 kjv)
    OUR PASSOVER LAMB (1 Cor. 5:7)
    OUR PEACE (Ephesians 2:14)

    P
    PHYSICIAN (Luke 4:23)
    PORTION (Psalm 73:26,Psalm 119:57)
    POTENTATE (1 Timothy 6:15)
    POTTER (Isaiah 64:8)
    POWER OF GOD (1 Cor. 1:24)
    PRINCE OF LIFE (Acts 3:15)
    PRINCE OF PEACE (Isaiah 9:6)
    PROPHET (Acts 3:22)
    PROPHET OF THE HIGHEST (Luke 1:76)
    PROPITIATION (1John 2:2, 1John 4:10)
    PURIFIER (Malachi 3:3)

    Q
    QUICKENING SPIRIT (1 Corinthians 15:45 kjv)

    R
    RABBONI (TEACHER) (John 20:16)
    RADIANCE OF GOD’S GLORY (Heb.1:3)
    REDEEMER (Job 19:25)
    REFINER’S FIRE (Malachi 3:2)
    REFUGE (Jeremiah 16:19)
    RESURRECTION (John 11:25)
    REWARDER (Hebrews 11:6)
    RIGHTEOUS ONE (1 John 2:1)
    ROCK (1 Cor.10:4)
    ROOT OF DAVID (Rev. 22:16)
    ROSE OF SHARON (Song 2:1)
    RULER OF GOD’S CREATION (Rev. 3:14)
    RULER OVER KINGS OF EARTH (Rev 1:5)
    RULER OVER ISRAEL (Micah 5:2)

    S
    SAVIOR (Luke 2:11)
    SCEPTRE (Numbers 24:17)
    SEED (Genesis 3:15)
    SERVANT (Isaiah 42:1)
    SHADE (Psalm 121:5)
    SHEPHERD OF OUR SOULS (1Peter 2:25)
    SHIELD (Genesis 15:1)
    SHILOH (Genesis 49:10)
    SONG (Exodus 15:2, Isaiah 12:2)
    SON OF DAVID (Matthew 1:1)
    SON OF GOD (Matthew 27:54)
    SON OF MAN (Matthew 8:20)
    SON OF THE MOST HIGH (Luke 1:32)
    SOURCE (Hebrews 5:9)
    SPIRIT (John 4:24)
    SPIRIT OF ADOPTION (Romans 8:15)
    SPIRIT OF GOD (Genesis 1:2)
    SPIRIT OF TRUTH (John 14:17,15:26,16:13)
    STAR OUT OF JACOB (Numbers 24:17)
    STRENGTH (Jeremiah 16:19)
    STONE (1 Peter 2:8)
    STONE OF ISRAEL (Genesis 49:24)
    STRONGHOLD (Nahum 1:7)
    STRONG TOWER (Proverbs 18:10)
    SUN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS (Malachi 4:2)

    T
    TEACHER (John 13:13)
    TEMPLE (Revelation 21:22)
    THE ONE (Psalm 144:2,10)
    TRUE LIGHT (John 1:9)
    TRUE WITNESS (Revelation 3:14)
    TRUTH (John 14:6)

    V
    VINE (John 15:5)

    W
    WALL OF FIRE (Zechariah 2:5)
    WAY (John 14:6)
    WISDOM OF GOD (1 Cor. 1:24)
    WITNESS (Isaiah 55:4)
    WONDERFUL (Isaiah 9:6)
    WORD (John 1:1)
    WORD OF GOD (Revelation 19:13)

    Y
    YAH (Isaiah 12:2 kjv, Psalm 68:4 nkjv)
     
  20. Dale

    Dale Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Tim Ray: " Prior to His arrival on Earth, the Bible teaches that Jesus lived in the form or likeness of an angel."

    The Bible does not teach this. The Gospel of John is clear that Jesus existed prior to Incarnation but we are not told in what form.

    I don't find your comments about Satan to be helpful.

    Under Point 7

    Tim Ray: " The accuser of the brethren (Revelation 12:10) boasted that even Moses, who had been a faithful servant of God, had sinned and become his prisoner."

    Revelation 12:10 does not mention Moses. The only place Moses is mentioned in Revelation is Rev 15:3, which says that Moses is a loyal servant of God.
     
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