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Dale

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I won't defend Mrs. White here, but rather share some Biblical insights you might wish to consider.

Michael the Archangel
According to John 1 and other Bible passages, Jesus is a God who lived with the Father before the world was created. Most Christians have no problem with the idea that a member of deity was made into the likeness of a human form and we call Him, "Jesus." "he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death — even death on a cross!" (Philippians 2:7-8) Prior to His arrival on Earth, the Bible teaches that Jesus lived in the form or likeness of an angel. To some people, the idea that Jesus is the Michael the Archangel seems utterly impossible.

Consider the irony: It is acceptable to many people that Jesus lived as an unremarkable man when on Earth (Isaiah 53:2) but somehow it is blasphemey that he lived as the archangel before coming to Earth! Somehow, the form of a man is a higher position that the form of an angel. Some people are worried that if Jesus lived in the form of an angel, this would make him a created being, less than deity — but living in the form of man does not incur the same limitations. Worse, some religious groups do not accept that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament. The Bible teaches that Jesus is "the Word," He speaks for the Father and 99% of the references in the Old Testament pertain to Jesus precisely because one God is speaking for another God. There is ample proof in the Bible that the person known as “Michael, the Archangel” can be identified as Jesus without detracting anything from His divinity. Let's examine this interesting puzzle point by point.

POINT ONE: When Jesus was born in human flesh through the virgin, Mary, the prophetic utterances of the Holy Spirit gave Him many appropriate names. A few of these are:
Immanuel (God is with us) – Matthew 1:23
Jesus (Savior) – Matthew 1:21
Lamb of God – John 1:29
Christ (Messiah, anointed One or King) – John 1:41

The Bible also reveals that the devil's name was “Lucifer” before he rebelled against God. After being thrown out of Heaven, Lucifer acquired a new name called “Satan.” (Isaiah 14:12 and Revelation 12:9) Since we know Jesus existed throughout the ages of eternity long before coming as a babe to Bethlehem, it is logical to assume that He, too, had some Heavenly name before His earthly experience.

POINT TWO: In Biblical times, names were regarded as profoundly important. Nearly every name had a meaning. A few examples will illustrate this point:
El (these letters in a name pertained to God)
Elijah (my God is Jehovah)
Daniel (judgment of God)
Gabriel (man of God)
Michael (one who is like God)

Unless our intention is to be blasphemous, we must recognize that no one is like God – except God Himself. The Bible is clear that it was Lucifer's pride which prompted him to say, “I will be like the Most High.” (Isaiah 14:13-14) Who was he referring to? By now I am sure that the devil understands that no created being – even a dazzling angel like Lucifer – can ever be equal to his Creator.

POINT THREE: The prefix “arch” comes from a Greek word meaning “ruler” or one who rules over, such as in the word “monarch.” We know that our Heavenly Father, as God, rules and reigns over all faithful believers without being a human Himself. By the same token, Jesus can assume the position of ruler over all the angels without being an angel (created being) Himself.

So, by saying that Jesus is Michael, the Archangel, the Bible is simply calling Him the Supreme Commander of the angelic host, just as our United States President is called the Commander-in-Chief of all the armed forces. This does not mean that the President is a soldier, wearing a uniform. He is above every foot soldier, sailor, airman or marine. He outranks them and rules them, according to the United States Constitution.

To demonstrate this further, consider Genesis 1:28. Here we read that in the beginning God gave man “dominion over” all creatures of the animal kingdom, whether fish, fowl, or animal. “Dominion” means lordship or authority to rule. Thus God placed man in charge of His creation, dominating the animals as a lord rules his subjects. If man can rule the animal kingdom without being an animal himself, no one should insist that Christ cannot be the archangel without being a created angel Himself. Therefore, it should not surprise us that according to the Bible, Jesus Christ has the honor of being “Commander-in-Chief” and has “dominion” over all the angelic forces of Heaven. Serving in this capacity does not detract from His deity or make Him in any way a created being.

POINT FOUR: The Old Testament contains a fascinating story of a human encounter with the Heavenly Commander-in-Chief. “Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, ‘Are you for us or for our enemies?‘ ‘Neither,’ he replied, ‘but as commander of the army of the LORD I have now come.’ Then Joshua fell face down to the ground in reverence, and asked him, ‘What message does my Lord have for his servant?’ The commander of the Lord's army replied, ‘Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy.’ And Joshua did so.” (Joshua 5:13-15)

On this occasion, Joshua is being visited by the Lord Jesus Christ in his pre-incarnate form. Throughout the Old Testament, the Bible mentions the Lord appearing to individuals, such as Abraham (Genesis 18:1-33) and Jacob (Genesis 32:24-30). On this particular occasion with Joshua, verse 13 says that Joshua looked up and saw a “man standing in front of him with a drawn sword.” When Joshua asks who he is, Joshua is told that he is the “Commander of the Lord's army.” The Living Bible says “I am Commander-in-Chief of the Lord's army.” This is just another way of saying He is the “Arch”angel, or ruler of the angel hosts. Even though He was identified as the Archangel, we know He was no mere angel for two reasons.

First, Joshua fell down and worshiped him, and the Being did not stop him from doing so. If Joshua had been worshiping an angel, he would have been immediately reprimanded. In both Revelation 19:10 and Revelation 22:8 and 9, John was told to stop worshiping the angel and told, “Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God!” Secondly, this divine Being not only accepts worship from Joshua, but also tells him to take off his shoes, for the place he was standing was holy. Moses received the same command when He met the Lord at the burning bush. (Exodus 3:1-6) It become clear that the leader of the Heavenly hosts is no mere angel, but our Lord, Jesus Christ, Himself.

POINT FIVE: There are other Scriptures that mention the name of Michael, revealing that He is a very special Person. These texts suggest that He must be, in fact, a heavenly Being of royal lineage. For instance, God sent the angel, Gabriel, to give a special message to the prophet Daniel (Daniel 8:16 and 9:21). This angel messenger told Daniel that “Michael” is “the great prince who protects your people.” A prince is the son of a king, of course, and Jesus is the Son of God, the King of Heaven. Gabriel, in the very same book calls the Messiah, “the Prince.” (Daniel 9:25).

Now please note what we've learned from the pen of the same inspired writer:

  1. Messiah = the Prince
  2. Michael = the great prince
  3. If this is true, and two things equal to the same thing are equal to each other, this means the Messiah and Michael are one and the same Person, Jesus Christ.





Tim Ray:

<< POINT FIVE: There are other Scriptures that mention the name of Michael, revealing that He is a very special Person. These texts suggest that He must be, in fact, a heavenly Being of royal lineage. For instance, God sent the angel, Gabriel, to give a special message to the prophet Daniel (Daniel 8:16 and 9:21). This angel messenger told Daniel that “Michael” is “the great prince who protects your people.” A prince is the son of a king, of course, and Jesus is the Son of God, the King of Heaven. Gabriel, in the very same book calls the Messiah, “the Prince.” (Daniel 9:25).

Now please note what we've learned from the pen of the same inspired writer:
  1. Messiah = the Prince
  2. Michael = the great prince
If this is true, and two things equal to the same thing are equal to each other, this means the Messiah and Michael are one and the same Person, Jesus Christ. >>


This isn't true at all. You say that Michael is an angel of "royal lineage." As far as I know angels don't have a lineage. As far as we know, every angel is a special creation, so there is no lineage.

A prince is not necessarily the son of a king. A prince can simply be a ruler, however they got there. Under the czars, Russia had subject princes, where "prince" was a title of nobility but not a sign of being a member of the royal family. Japan also had subject princes, where "prince" was a title of nobility.

We can draw no conclusions from the way word Prince is used for Michael in Daniel. The Hebrew word "sar" can mean chief, official, ruler, captain or prince. In Hebrew, "Captain of the Guard" and "Prince of the Guard" are the same. In translation, "prince" sounds more impressive than "chief," "official," or so forth.

<< Strong's Concordance

sar: chieftain, chief, ruler, official, captain, prince

Original Word: שַׂר
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: sar
Phonetic Spelling: (sar)
Definition: chieftain, chief, ruler, official, captain, prince >>

Link:
Strong's Hebrew: 8269. שָׂר (sar) -- chieftain, chief, ruler, official, captain, prince
 
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pasifika

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Tim Ray: " Prior to His arrival on Earth, the Bible teaches that Jesus lived in the form or likeness of an angel."

The Bible does not teach this. The Gospel of John is clear that Jesus existed prior to Incarnation but we are not told in what form.

I don't find your comments about Satan to be helpful.

Under Point 7

Tim Ray: " The accuser of the brethren (Revelation 12:10) boasted that even Moses, who had been a faithful servant of God, had sinned and become his prisoner."

Revelation 12:10 does not mention Moses. The only place Moses is mentioned in Revelation is Rev 15:3, which says that Moses is a loyal servant of God.
Philippians 2:6...Who being in the very form or nature God..
 
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Dale

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I won't defend Mrs. White here, but rather share some Biblical insights you might wish to consider.


POINT SEVEN: The only Bible verse frequently quoted by those who deny that Jesus is Michael, the Archangel, is Jude 1:9, which says, “But even the archangel Michael, when He was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, ‘The Lord rebuke you!’”

Some people believe this verse proves Jesus and Michael are not the same entity because Michael, in this text, rebukes the devil Himself, by saying, “The Lord rebuke you!” People reason that the Archangel cannot be the Lord for He is calling someone else, “the Lord.” It is always important to let the Bible be its own interpreter. Jude 1:9 becomes much clearer when compared with Zechariah 3:2, where Jesus again is confronting Satan. Zechariah 3:2 says: “The LORD said to Satan, ‘The LORD rebuke you, Satan!’ ” This verse is a perfect parallel to Jude 1:9 – almost a carbon copy – except the names are changed. In one text He is called Michael and in the other He is called the Lord. In both cases, one could argue that Michael/Lord was calling on His Heavenly Father to rebuke the devil. On both occasions, Christ knew it was pointless to argue with Lucifer’s closed mind – Lucifer had made his mind up long ago. Jesus knew that a day is coming, when as Lord and Judge of all the universe, He will rebuke Satan with finality, condemning him to the lake of fire.

Another possible interpretation of these two texts is to realize that Christ was simply speaking of Himself when He said, “The Lord rebuke you,” meaning, “I rebuke you.” Jesus often referred to Himself in the third person, saying things like: “When the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the Earth?” (Luke 18:8) Should we conclude that Jesus is not the Son of God simply because in John 3:16 He referred to Himself in the third person (“Whosoever believeth in Him”) rather than saying “in me?”

In reference to Moses’ death, the Bible states that the Lord, Himself, buried His faithful servant, but did not reveal to men where Moses’ grave was. (Deuteronomy 34:5-6) Jude reveals that Moses’ dead body was the subject of dispute between Christ and Satan. When the Prince of Life approached the lonely grave, Satan was alarmed. Satan claimed all who were in the grave as his captives and felt threatened by this invasion into “his territory.” The accuser of the brethren (Revelation 12:10) boasted that even Moses, who had been a faithful servant of God, had sinned and become his prisoner. Christ refused to argue with Satan, but then and there, performed His work of breaking the devil's power and bringing the dead to life. The New Testament indicates that Moses appeared with Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration, so it is safe to conclude that the Lord triumphed in the contest with the devil and raised Moses from his grave.

How do we know it was Christ, Himself, and not a mere angel that contended with Satan over the resurrection of Moses' body? Angels, like ourselves, are created beings and have no power to create life. Satan and his angel followers are powerful, supernatural beings, but they are “fallen” and they are created beings. They may make it look like dead people are talking to mediums (i.e., seances), but they cannot create life. Although God empowered his faithful servants to resuscitate a dead person on a few occasions, those miracles were not resurrections to a glorious, immortal life. Miracles though they were, those people who were raised, later died again. They were not taken “bodily” to Heaven, as Moses and Elijah were. Only Christ, the Life-giver, can raise a dead person to eternal life. He is our only hope – not some angel. Keeping this all in mind, it is safe to conclude that the One who contended with Satan over Moses' body was a Heavenly Being far more powerful than any angel.

POINT EIGHT: Jesus encouraged us to: “Search the Scriptures.” (John 5:39) It is very important to compare texts throughout the different books of the Bible, for there is no single writer found in the Old or New Testament who had all of God's truth revealed to him. Each inspired writer was given a glimpse of the heavenly vision. If our hearts “thirst” after truth, we must carefully search with all our hearts and read all that the Bible says about any given subject.

The apostles, John and Paul, give a good example of how two texts can describe the same event, but in slightly different ways. Paul says dead believers are resurrected at the voice of the Archangel. “For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16) John records that the Lord Jesus said the dead righteous would be resurrected at the sound of His own voice. “I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. . . . And He has given Him authority to judge because He is the Son of Man. Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice and come out – those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.” (John 5:25-29) These parallel passages are speaking of the same event. Paul, in Thessalonians, calls it “the voice of the Archangel” and John, in His gospel, calls it “the voice of the Son of God.”When Christ returns to call His faithful ones to life, every angel in heaven will come with Him: “The Son of Man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him.” (Matthew 25:31) He is their Commander! There is no mystery here – Jesus, the Life-giver, is also, Michael, the Archangel.

*** For further study, please read the following Scripture references:

  1. Genesis 16 (Please note verses 7, 9, 11, and especially verse 13.)
  2. Genesis 22 (Please note verse 15 and remember that only God can “swear by Himself.”)
  3. Exodus 3 (Be sure to notice verse 2 and then verse 6.)
  4. Numbers 22:21-35 (Notice that the “angel” did not stop Balam from bowing down to Him. See also Revelation 19:10 and Revelation 22:8, 9)
  5. Judges 2 (Notice that the angel of the Lord says: “Yet you have disobeyed me.”)
  6. Judges 6:20-23 (Notice that Gideon calls the angel of the Lord ,“Sovereign Lord,” and the “angel”assures Gideon he will not die, in verse 23.)
  7. Zechariah 3 (Notice verse 4 – only Jesus can take away sin.)
(Jesus the Alpha and The Omega, by Larry Wilson, Chapter 2)



Tim, you start off by dissociating yourself from Ellen White. Under Point 7, then you make claims that could only come from her writings.



Tim Ray: << Jude reveals that Moses’ dead body was the subject of dispute between Christ and Satan. When the Prince of Life approached the lonely grave, Satan was alarmed. Satan claimed all who were in the grave as his captives and felt threatened by this invasion into “his territory.” >>



Jude says that Michael disputed with Satan. Jude does not call Michael the "Prince of Life." There is nothing about Michael approaching the grave of Moses or Satan being alarmed. Certainly none of this is in Deuteronomy 31, the last chapter of Deuteronomy.

It is Ellen White who says these things. She is the one who says that Satan was "alarmed," and that Christ/Michael, called the Prince of Life, approached the grave of Moses.

"For the first time Christ was about to give life to the dead. As the Prince of life and the shining ones approached the grave, Satan was alarmed for his supremacy." (Ellen White, Conflict of the Ages, Kindle Location 7696-7700)

It is Ellen White who says these things, not the Bible.
 
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Dale

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I won't defend Mrs. White here, but rather share some Biblical insights you might wish to consider.

Michael the Archangel
According to John 1 and other Bible passages, Jesus is a God who lived with the Father before the world was created. Most Christians have no problem with the idea that a member of deity was made into the likeness of a human form and we call Him, "Jesus." "he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death — even death on a cross!" (Philippians 2:7-8) Prior to His arrival on Earth, the Bible teaches that Jesus lived in the form or likeness of an angel. To some people, the idea that Jesus is the Michael the Archangel seems utterly impossible.

Consider the irony: It is acceptable to many people that Jesus lived as an unremarkable man when on Earth (Isaiah 53:2) but somehow it is blasphemey that he lived as the archangel before coming to Earth! Somehow, the form of a man is a higher position that the form of an angel. Some people are worried that if Jesus lived in the form of an angel, this would make him a created being, less than deity — but living in the form of man does not incur the same limitations. Worse, some religious groups do not accept that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament. The Bible teaches that Jesus is "the Word," He speaks for the Father and 99% of the references in the Old Testament pertain to Jesus precisely because one God is speaking for another God. There is ample proof in the Bible that the person known as “Michael, the Archangel” can be identified as Jesus without detracting anything from His divinity. Let's examine this interesting puzzle point by point.

POINT ONE: When Jesus was born in human flesh through the virgin, Mary, the prophetic utterances of the Holy Spirit gave Him many appropriate names. A few of these are:
Immanuel (God is with us) – Matthew 1:23
Jesus (Savior) – Matthew 1:21
Lamb of God – John 1:29
Christ (Messiah, anointed One or King) – John 1:41

The Bible also reveals that the devil's name was “Lucifer” before he rebelled against God. After being thrown out of Heaven, Lucifer acquired a new name called “Satan.” (Isaiah 14:12 and Revelation 12:9) Since we know Jesus existed throughout the ages of eternity long before coming as a babe to Bethlehem, it is logical to assume that He, too, had some Heavenly name before His earthly experience.

POINT TWO: In Biblical times, names were regarded as profoundly important. Nearly every name had a meaning. A few examples will illustrate this point:
El (these letters in a name pertained to God)
Elijah (my God is Jehovah)
Daniel (judgment of God)
Gabriel (man of God)
Michael (one who is like God)

Unless our intention is to be blasphemous, we must recognize that no one is like God – except God Himself. The Bible is clear that it was Lucifer's pride which prompted him to say, “I will be like the Most High.” (Isaiah 14:13-14) Who was he referring to? By now I am sure that the devil understands that no created being – even a dazzling angel like Lucifer – can ever be equal to his Creator.

POINT THREE: The prefix “arch” comes from a Greek word meaning “ruler” or one who rules over, such as in the word “monarch.” We know that our Heavenly Father, as God, rules and reigns over all faithful believers without being a human Himself. By the same token, Jesus can assume the position of ruler over all the angels without being an angel (created being) Himself.

So, by saying that Jesus is Michael, the Archangel, the Bible is simply calling Him the Supreme Commander of the angelic host, just as our United States President is called the Commander-in-Chief of all the armed forces. This does not mean that the President is a soldier, wearing a uniform. He is above every foot soldier, sailor, airman or marine. He outranks them and rules them, according to the United States Constitution.

To demonstrate this further, consider Genesis 1:28. Here we read that in the beginning God gave man “dominion over” all creatures of the animal kingdom, whether fish, fowl, or animal. “Dominion” means lordship or authority to rule. Thus God placed man in charge of His creation, dominating the animals as a lord rules his subjects. If man can rule the animal kingdom without being an animal himself, no one should insist that Christ cannot be the archangel without being a created angel Himself. Therefore, it should not surprise us that according to the Bible, Jesus Christ has the honor of being “Commander-in-Chief” and has “dominion” over all the angelic forces of Heaven. Serving in this capacity does not detract from His deity or make Him in any way a created being.


POINT FIVE: There are other Scriptures that mention the name of Michael, revealing that He is a very special Person. These texts suggest that He must be, in fact, a heavenly Being of royal lineage. For instance, God sent the angel, Gabriel, to give a special message to the prophet Daniel (Daniel 8:16 and 9:21). This angel messenger told Daniel that “Michael” is “the great prince who protects your people.” A prince is the son of a king, of course, and Jesus is the Son of God, the King of Heaven. Gabriel, in the very same book calls the Messiah, “the Prince.” (Daniel 9:25).

Now please note what we've learned from the pen of the same inspired writer:

  1. Messiah = the Prince
  2. Michael = the great prince
  3. If this is true, and two things equal to the same thing are equal to each other, this means the Messiah and Michael are one and the same Person, Jesus Christ.

POINT SEVEN: The only Bible verse frequently quoted by those who deny that Jesus is Michael, the Archangel, is Jude 1:9, which says, “But even the archangel Michael, when He was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, ‘The Lord rebuke you!’”

Some people believe this verse proves Jesus and Michael are not the same entity because Michael, in this text, rebukes the devil Himself, by saying, “The Lord rebuke you!” People reason that the Archangel cannot be the Lord for He is calling someone else, “the Lord.” It is always important to let the Bible be its own interpreter. Jude 1:9 becomes much clearer when compared with Zechariah 3:2, where Jesus again is confronting Satan. Zechariah 3:2 says: “The LORD said to Satan, ‘The LORD rebuke you, Satan!’ ” This verse is a perfect parallel to Jude 1:9 – almost a carbon copy – except the names are changed. In one text He is called Michael and in the other He is called the Lord. In both cases, one could argue that Michael/Lord was calling on His Heavenly Father to rebuke the devil. On both occasions, Christ knew it was pointless to argue with Lucifer’s closed mind – Lucifer had made his mind up long ago. Jesus knew that a day is coming, when as Lord and Judge of all the universe, He will rebuke Satan with finality, condemning him to the lake of fire.

Another possible interpretation of these two texts is to realize that Christ was simply speaking of Himself when He said, “The Lord rebuke you,” meaning, “I rebuke you.” Jesus often referred to Himself in the third person, saying things like: “When the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the Earth?” (Luke 18:8) Should we conclude that Jesus is not the Son of God simply because in John 3:16 He referred to Himself in the third person (“Whosoever believeth in Him”) rather than saying “in me?”

In reference to Moses’ death, the Bible states that the Lord, Himself, buried His faithful servant, but did not reveal to men where Moses’ grave was. (Deuteronomy 34:5-6) Jude reveals that Moses’ dead body was the subject of dispute between Christ and Satan. When the Prince of Life approached the lonely grave, Satan was alarmed. Satan claimed all who were in the grave as his captives and felt threatened by this invasion into “his territory.” The accuser of the brethren (Revelation 12:10) boasted that even Moses, who had been a faithful servant of God, had sinned and become his prisoner. Christ refused to argue with Satan, but then and there, performed His work of breaking the devil's power and bringing the dead to life. The New Testament indicates that Moses appeared with Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration, so it is safe to conclude that the Lord triumphed in the contest with the devil and raised Moses from his grave.

How do we know it was Christ, Himself, and not a mere angel that contended with Satan over the resurrection of Moses' body? Angels, like ourselves, are created beings and have no power to create life. Satan and his angel followers are powerful, supernatural beings, but they are “fallen” and they are created beings. They may make it look like dead people are talking to mediums (i.e., seances), but they cannot create life. Although God empowered his faithful servants to resuscitate a dead person on a few occasions, those miracles were not resurrections to a glorious, immortal life. Miracles though they were, those people who were raised, later died again. They were not taken “bodily” to Heaven, as Moses and Elijah were. Only Christ, the Life-giver, can raise a dead person to eternal life. He is our only hope – not some angel. Keeping this all in mind, it is safe to conclude that the One who contended with Satan over Moses' body was a Heavenly Being far more powerful than any angel.


(Jesus the Alpha and The Omega, by Larry Wilson, Chapter 2)



Tim Ray: "The New Testament indicates that Moses appeared with Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration, so it is safe to conclude that the Lord triumphed in the contest with the devil and raised Moses from his grave."

Tim, you assume that Moses was given a special resurrection after his burial. Deuteronomy tells us no such thing and there is no other reason to think so.

In 2 Kings 2, we read that God took Elijah to heaven in a flaming chariot. We do not know if Elijah reached heaven in his mortal body. Maybe his body dissolved after it was no longer needed. Many people assume that Elijah arrived in heaven in the flesh and become immortal but we don't know that. Scripture is silent on that subject. We are only told that God took Elijah to heaven in some form.

As to Moses and Elijah appearing together at the Transfiguration, we don't know that either one of them was present in the body. Gospel passages on the Transfiguration give the impression that it was a vision. They could have been there as spirits, or only appeared to be there in a vision.
 
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mmksparbud

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  • Sorry for butting in, I'm not Tim---however. We have no Prince but Jesus. Certainly the Jews had none--"your Prince" is what Gabriel referred to Him as when he was talking to Daniel. Earthly men bowed before a Prince, Jews bowed to no earthly Prince. That is what made Haman so angry about Mordecai, he wouldn't bow to him.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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MY! My! Thank you! I had forgotten those passages. Clearly---Michael was Jesus.
I don't know what you are missing. I've studied this subject for years, the site you quoted goes on to validate all her writings. Or didn't you know that? I had never used EGW to validate the concept that Michael and Jesus were one---I had only used the bible, read every instance in the bible---regarding the Captain of the Host, Angel of the Lord, each instance man bowed to this being and was never contradicted for doing so and in the same passage also referred to that being as God. Never happened with any other angel, always the admonition to not worship the angel--always, except with Michael, the Angel of the Lord, or the Captain of the Hosts. Just by the bible, Michael was another title for Jesus. And Jesus, Himself, referred to Himself as the I Am, which is what God told Moses to tell the Israelites, was His name. But I had not remembered her passages about this---thanks again. It has deepened my respect for her writings.

In Revelation John bowed to the angel, and was told not to.

Show me where an angel who was not angel of the Lord was worshipped.

Also, take into account that bowing in their culture is not always worship.

I try to use primary sources or sites that represent a groups beliefs.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Angel Worship.
The charge of angel-worship raised against the Jews, based upon Col. ii. 18, is decidedly unfounded. Paul had probably the same Gnostic sect in mind that Celsus refers to when he repeats the charge of Aristides ("Apology," xiv. 4; see Origen, book i. 26, v. 6-34, 41), telling us (Origen, vi. 30) of magical figures on which he found the seven angels inscribed: (1) Michael, with the figure of a lion; (2) Suriel, as a bull (shor or tura = Turiel; see Jerome on Hab. i. 14); (3) Raphael in a serpentine form; (4) Gabriel as an eagle; (5) Yalda Bahut with the countenance of a bear; (6) Erathaol as a dog; and (7) Onoel in the shape of an ass. Of these seven archons (Celsus, vi. 27) Paul speaks continually in his letters (I Cor. ii. 6-8; Col. ii. 8, 20). But this Ophite sect has nothing to do with the Jews. On the contrary, R. Ishmael, in Mek., Yithro, x., expressly applies the prohibition of idolatry to the likeness of angels of the ofanim and cherubim (compare Targ. Yer. to Ex. xx. 20). "He who slaughters an animal in the name of sun, moon, stars, and planets, or in the name of Michael, the great captain of the heavenly hosts, renders the same an offering to dead idols" (Ḥul. 40a; 'Ab. Zarah, 42b). "Not as one who would first send his servant to a friend to ask for aid in his hour of need should man apply to Michael, or Gabriel, to intercede for him; but he should turn immediately to God Himself; for 'whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered'" (Joel, iii. 5 [A. V. ii. 32]; Yer. Ber. ix. 13a; compare Rev. xix. 10, xxii. 8-9). "Four keys are in the keeping of God exclusively and not in that of the angels: the keys of rain, of nourishment, of birth, and of resurrection" (Targ. Yer. to Gen. xxx. 22; Deut. xxviii. 12; compare Ta'anit, 2a, where only three keys are mentioned). This is rightly interpreted by Gfrörer, "Jahrhundert des Heils," i. 377, as meant to exclude prayer to the angels. The invocations of angels occurring in the liturgy were addressed to them as mediators, not as helpers. Still many rabbinical authorities disapproved of such invocations (see the literature in Zunz, "S. P." p. 148).
ANGELOLOGY - JewishEncyclopedia.com
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Then the treasures of wisdom were taken away from Moses and given to Joshua (comp. Soṭah 13b). A voice ("bat ḳol") was heard to say, "Learn from Joshua!" Joshua delivered a speech of which Moses understood nothing. Then, when the people asked that Moses should complete the Torah, he replied, "I do not know how to answer you," and tottered and fell. He then said: "Lord of the world, until now I desired to live; but now I am willing to die." As the angel of death was afraid to take his soul, God Himself, accompanied by Gabriel, Michael, and Zagziel, the former teacher of Moses, descended to get it. Moses blessed the people, begged their forgiveness for any injuries he might have done them, and took leave of them with the assurance that he would see them again at the resurrection of the dead. Gabriel arranged the couch, Michael spread a silken cover over it, and Zagziel put a silken pillow under Moses' head. At God's command Moses crossed his hands over his breast and closed his eyes, and God took his soul away with a kiss. Then heaven and earth and the starry world began to weep for Moses (Midr. Peṭirat Mosheh, l.c.; Yalḳ., Deut. 940; Deut. R. xi. 6). Although Moses died in the territory of the tribe of Reuben, he was buried in that of Gad at a spot four miles distant from the place of his death. He was carried this distance by the Shekinah, while the angels said to him that he had practised God's justice (Deut. xxxiii. 22). At the same time the bat ḳol cried out in the camp of the people: "Moses, the great teacher of Israel, is dead!" (Soṭah 13b).

God Himself buried Moses (Soṭah 14a; Sanh. 39a) in a grave which had been prepared for him in the dusk of Friday, the sixth day of the Creation (Pes. 54a). This tomb is opposite Beth-peor (Deut. xxxiv. 6), in atonement for the sin which Israel committed with the idol Peor (Soṭah 14a). Yet it can not be discovered; for to a person standing on the mountain it seems to be in the valley; and if one goes down into the valley, it appears to be on the mountain (ib.).
MOSES - JewishEncyclopedia.com
 
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mmksparbud

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In Revelation John bowed to the angel, and was told not to.

Show me where an angel who was not angel of the Lord was worshipped.

Also, take into account that bowing in their culture is not always worship.

I try to use primary sources or sites that represent a groups beliefs.

Exactly--No angel can be worshipped by man--the angel will always put a stop to it. The angel of the Lord, was worshipped, and accepted it.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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The New Word Translation 9NWT) is in most people's opinion the very worst of all translations.

The Watchtower paid for it to be made so that what they believe could be changed in the Scriptures to match their false teachings.

Because the Jehovah's Witness organization denies the deity of both Jesus and the Holy Spirit, they have altered the text of God's word to reflect their presuppositions.

Please do not take my word for this. Do the investigative work with you computer and it will not take you but about 2 minutes to find out.

Some SDA used what is called Clear Word Bible https://www.amazon.com/-/es/Clear-W...xt&sprefix=clear+word,digital-text,174&sr=1-1
Just like some LDS use
The New Testament: A New Translation for Latter-day Saints Kindle Edition
Some LDS use Benjamin Blayney's revision of the King James Bible
https://www.amazon.com/-/es/gp/product/B07KJNKH1D/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i0
 
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Daniel Marsh

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John 1:1 ......
"In the beginning was the WORD. The Word was with God and the Word was God.

Colossians 1:16......
"For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him."

Hebrews 1 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
God Has Spoken Through His Son
1 In the past God spoke to our people through the prophets. He spoke to them many times and in many different ways. 2 And now in these last days, God has spoken to us again through his Son. He made the whole world through his Son. And he has chosen his Son to have all things. 3 The Son shows the glory of God. He is a perfect copy of God’s nature, and he holds everything together by his powerful command. The Son made people clean from their sins. Then he sat down at the right side of God, the Great One in heaven. 4 The Son became much greater than the angels, and God gave him a name that is much greater than any of their names.

5 God never said this to any of the angels:

“You are my Son.
Today I have become your Father.”

God also never said about an angel,

“I will be his Father,
and he will be my son.”

6 And then, when God presents his firstborn Son to the world, he says,

“Let all God’s angels worship him.”[c]

7 This is what God said about the angels:


“He changes his angels into winds[d]
and his servants into flaming fire.”

8 But this is what he said about his Son:

“God, your kingdom will last forever and ever.
You use your authority for justice.
9 You love what is right and hate what is wrong.
So God, your God, has chosen you,
giving you more honor and joy than anyone like you.”

10 God also said,

“O Lord, in the beginning you made the earth,
and your hands made the sky.

11 These things will disappear, but you will stay.
They will all wear out like old clothes.
12 You will fold them up like a coat,
and they will be changed like clothes.
But you never change,
and your life will never end.”

13 And God never said this to an angel:

“Sit at my right side
until I put your enemies under your power.
[e]”

14 All the angels are spirits who serve God and are sent to help those who will receive salvation.

This contrast alone between the Son of God and angels is enough to prove Jesus was never an angel.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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In your opinion, would the information you just posted disqualify SDA's as Biblical Christians??????

Main line SDA believe in the Trinity and salvation by grace. The Change came about from Walter Martin and Barnhouse meetings with them.
 
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Well, as in most other cases---we believe completely differently. You could then provide a reason why this so called angel, and the Captain of the Host and the Lords angel all received worship from man.
And please remember the forum rules and try not to get this thread shut down. We are Christian and as such, the forum rules should be followed, this time. Once again , you are saying things that are not true.
I do not care what the Jehovah Witness's believe. We totally believe that Jesus is the One and Only Son of God---and God with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Michael is just another title, name, of which Jesus has many---Hie is King of Kings and Lord of Lords---obviously He is not an earthly king or Lord as the word is used to describe other high ranking earthly men. Yes---Jesus is the Creator of all things---He is and has many titles, about 200 names. Michael, just happens to be one of them. As far as I'm concerned---You are showing an appalling disrespect to Jesus by rejecting His authority to be whatever He says His is. His is not an angel---archangel is the head of the angels --- as is Captain of the host--0He is ruler over the angels, He created them.

bowing down is at times simply showing respect in Jewish culture of the times.
 
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mmksparbud

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"Some SDA"? I assume you have a list? I've never used it. Don't know any SDA who do. I personally prefer the KJV, but I read, the Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic versions also---you can find all Translations on the internet.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Daniel
What about the other seven points indicating that "The Angel of The Lord/Michael are both names used in reference too the second member of the Godhead prior to Him lowering Himself and taking on the form of humanity. Of which we/mankind now call Him Jesus. Would it be wise to throw out the baby with the bath water in regard to the other seven points?

The following I copied from post 101 of this thread. It is another individuals insights on Zechariah 3.

Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary - author Bob McCabe

Zechariah 3:1–10... the antecedent of “he” is the interpreting angel (he is referred to in 1:9, 14, 19; 2:3; 4:1, 3, 5; etc.; in light of 1:9 the interpreting angel was apparently present to explain some of the details of these visions to Zechariah), the antecedent of “me” is Zechariah, the angel of the LORD, and Satan. In this verse Joshua is described as standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan is pictured as standing at the right hand of the angel of the LORD to resist him. With this introduction to the vision we should note that the angel of the LORD is the focal point around which the following context revolves.

"The first half of v. 2 reads like this: “The LORD said to Satan, ‘The LORD rebuke you, Satan!’” In light of the participants mentioned in v. 1, we could read this verse in this fashion: “And the LORD, that is the angel of the LORD, said unto Satan, ‘The LORD rebuke you, Satan.’” Therefore, v. 2 identifies the angel of the LORD as the LORD and indicates that there is a distinction between the angel of the LORD and the LORD. This identification is further substantiated in v. 4. If we follow the context of vv. 2–4 carefully, we should notice that it is the angel of the LORD who forgives sin in v. 4. Since God is the only one who forgives sin, it is readily apparent that the angel of the LORD is God. Consequently, this passage provides solid support for both the deity of the angel of the LORD and his distinctiveness from the LORD.

Who is both deity and yet a distinct person from the LORD? Since no one has ever seen God the Father (John 1:18; 1 Tim 6:16) and since the Holy Spirit never takes on bodily form, this suggests that the supernatural Being to which this expression refers is the second member of the Trinity (also compare Exod 3:14 with John 8:58). Therefore, the angel of the LORD was a temporary manifestation of the LORD Jesus Christ in a preincarnate form

Hebrews 1 makes the 7 points mute.

List the 7 points since I do not remember them.

And, deal with Hebrews 1 first.

From Exodus 3, burning bush we do learn that angel of the Lord is God. The text does not say which member of the godhead --- that can only be assumed.

I did read somewhere that angels are appearance of fire in an extra biblical work.

Hebrews 1:7
This is what God said about the angels: “He changes his angels into winds and his servants into flaming fire.”
 
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mmksparbud

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bowing down is at times simply showing respect in Jewish culture of the times.


That's why Mordecai risked life in order not to? "Thou shalt not bow down to them nor worship them." Many bow down to images.
 
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Not possible!! For we believe that Jesus is the Creator Son of God and God Himself with the Holy Spirit and the Father. He is not a created angel, Michael is not an angel! Archangel is the leader of the angels, there is only ONE Archangel mentioned in scripture. It is Jesus.
Luke 1:19
And the angel said to him in reply, “I am Gabriel, who stand before God. I was sent to speak to you and to announce to you this good news.

seven angels who stand before God,

"“In 1 Enoch 20:2-8, reference is made to seven angels who stand before God and are named Uriel, Raphael, Raguel, Michael, Saraqael, Gabriel (cf. Luke Luke 1:19) and Remiel.”—Alan F. Johnson, Revelation: The Expositor’s Bible Commentary (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House, 1966), Rev. 8:2. Not all translations of 1 Enoch 20 list seven angels, some list six: “These are the names of the holy angels who watch: Suruel, . . . Raphael, . . . Raguel, . . . Michael, . . . Saraqael, . . . Gabriel.”—James H. Charlesworth, The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha - Vol. 1 (New York, NY: Doubleday, 1983), 1 Enoch 20:1-7. Raphael is also mentioned in Tobit: “I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels, which present the prayers of the saints, and which go in and out before the glory of the Holy One.”—The Apocrypha: King James Version (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, 1995), Tobit 12:15."

The Book of the Watchers (Ch IX) lists the angels who in antediluvian times interceded on behalf of mankind against the rogue spirits termed "the Watchers": Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, and Uriel.
Seven Archangels - Wikipedia
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Sparbud,
This is an interesting passage in Joshua but you're overlooking something. The Man in Linen is NOT called Michael. If God wanted us to believe that the Archangel Michael orchestrated the taking of Jericho, He missed a perfect chance to say so. If God wanted us to bow down to Michael, He missed a perfect chance to say that. We are not being invited to fill in the blanks here, just look at what it says.

Please post the full text of Joshua passage from two modern translations.
thanks daniel
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Major,
To continue my reply ...
In general, I am here to point out discrepancies but I try to refrain from judgment when possible. To try to answer your question, I regard the notion that Jesus Christ and the Archangel Michael are one and the same as unproven, at best. It is mainly the result of jumping to conclusions. The SDA claim that Moses resurrected from the dead before the Israelites crossed the Jordan in many ways is far more dangerous. It seems to make Moses the equal or near-equal of Christ, and leaves the New Testament with little advantage over the Old Testament. This fits with the generally Old Testament-oriented views of the SDA. Maybe this is why they find the idea so attractive.

The claim that Moses had a special resurrection seems to be inseparable from the claim that Jesus Christ is Michael. That's why I can't ignore the fact that their claims about the Archangel Michael are suspect, at best.

Deuteronomy Chapter 31 doesn't say that Moses was resurrected ahead of schedule and that is the relevant Chapter. Stories made up later that somehow got mentioned in the NT cannot surmount that hurdle.

I have heard many strange and unfounded ideas from the SDA. Their claim that Satan will die for our sins, after Jesus already did, is their worst idea. This foolish claim strikes at the heart of Christianity and I am most worried about that one.

SDA believes in soul sleep, Moses and Enoch at the Transfiguration is a problem for them.
The text does not say they were resurrected to appear there. Isa 14 is about the king of babylon and the dead greet him after he died in the underworld.
 
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Right! He comes as King of Kings, Lord of Lords, with the voice of the archangel---doesn't say with a voice LIKE/OR AS the voice of the archangel, but with THE voice of the archangel---For it is that voice that brought the worlds into existence!
Yes! Michael and His angels! They are His for He created them and they have accepted Him as their Creator God and follow His commands. Those that rejected Him are no longer His---they belong now to Satan and will end up as he does.
1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

By your logic friend, Jesus is trump of God. smile

1 Thessalonians 4:16 Good News Translation (GNT)
16 There will be the shout of command, the archangel's voice, the sound of God's trumpet, and the Lord himself will come down from heaven. Those who have died believing in Christ will rise to life first;

"With a shout (en keleusmati). Note this so-called instrumental use of en. Old word, here only in N.T., from keleuw, to order, command (military command). Christ will come as Conqueror. With the voice of the archangel (en pwnh arcaggelou). Further explanation of keleusmati (command). The only archangel mentioned in N.T. is Michael in Jude 1:9 . But note absence of article with both pwnh and arcaggelou. The reference may be thus indefinite. With the trump of God (en salpiggi qeou). Trumpet. See same figure in 1 Corinthians 15:52 . The dead in Christ shall rise first (oi nekroi en Cristwi anasthsontai prwton). First here refers plainly to the fact that, so far from the dead in Christ having no share in the Parousia, they will rise before those still alive are changed."
1 Thessalonians 4:16 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

Matthew 25:31-46 ESV
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left

Matthew 16:27 ESV
For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.

Matthew 24:30-31 ESV
Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 11:15 ESV
Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”
 
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