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Featured Jesus is returning to reign on earth according to the OT prophets and His disciples

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Quasar92, Jun 30, 2017.

  1. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    Problem 1:

    Part of the Israelites were blinded as to who the Messiah is and part of them are not. All of the Israelites were not partially blinded.

    Problem 2:

    Based on the parable of the virgins, nobody will be given a second chance at salvation because of their genealogy at the Second Coming of Christ.

    Problem 3:

    The Futurist view has been used to promote the greatest deception in the history of the Church by claiming that modern Jews will come to salvation outside of the Church. The Olive Tree of Romans 11 is a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into one tree. Paul said the branches broken off can be grafted back in through faith in Christ. There is no separate tree. There is no Plan B outside of the New Covenant Church.

    Problem 4:

    We are to view the Old Testament through the eyes of the New Testament authors, instead of vice-versa.

    Problem 5:

    The Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology is less that 200 years old and is being used to promote the greatest fraud in the history of the Church. It has replaced the one seed in Galatians 3:16, with the many seeds. It has replaced the children of the promise, with the children of the flesh in Romans 9:8. It has replaced the word "so", with the word "then" in Romans 11:26. It has replaced the Son as the heir in Matthew 21, with those who have rejected Him as the chief cornerstone. At least part of the doctrine is based on race, instead of Grace.

    Problem 6:

    Why does it look like the Futurist version is correct? Because the Rothschilds and other globalists are using our faith against us. Samuel Untermeyer, who was one of the leading Zionists of his time, helped fund the publication of the Scofield Reference Bible.


    At one time Pastor Chuck Baldwin was a promoter of modern Dispensational Theology.
    In the video below he uses scripture to explain why he no longer holds this viewpoint.

  2. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

    He already raised the temple
    John 2:19-22
    19Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20The Jews then said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple,c and will you raise it up in three days?”21But he was speaking about the temple of his body. 22When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2017
  3. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

    Thank you for explaining your view. I do appreciate it and helps me see your side better. Your answer, was a little more complex than what I was asking for. So it appears that you believe that Christ will be on earth physically until his enemies are made a foot stool. How do your reconcile this with the scriptures that say that Christ ascended to heaven to sit at the right hand of God UNTIL his enemies are put under his feet?
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2017
  4. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

    in a debate the things mentioned that are argued are argued and the rest of the ideas unchallenged are assumed accepted. The strongest arguments and specific scriptures of prophecy I mention have gone unchallenged and the thing you attack is the parable of the 10 virgins. There is another group in that parable as it says at the beginning that the people who said we will not have this man be king over us. These people are executed for their statement of rejecting the king. The unwise virgins are cast out the 5 others are given high places in the kingdom. The passage does not assume that all the people would not have this man be king and there will be some to rule and reign over. You have ignored the chronology in Zech 14 that shows the LORD coming with his saints, on a specific day of war where the nations have come into Jerusalem. at night it will be light, the geography will change, the enemies will melt, It says the LORD has come with his saints and from that day he is king over all the earth. I showed how Dan 2 shows the kingdom coming like a stone cut with out hands destroying the kingdoms of man and covering the earth. I showed in Rev how Satan is bound for 1000 years and the nations will not be deceived for the 1000 yeas. I showed LUkE 1 promising Israel to be delivered and from that point on will serve the LORD without fear. I showed the law of the prophets is 100% accuracy and pointed out to how current Israel and the coming 1 world government and the return of the sacrifice are all part of the end times scenario required for 100% accuracy. I asked who were the two witnesses back in 70AD and what plagues happened as described? I show a continuation of life on earth in ZEch 14 after the LORD comes with his saint as the nations are now required to keep the feast of tabernacles or they get no rain. The futurist scenario believes all these events will happen as described and we do not have to place any other meaning on the scriptures to reach this conclusion. In a debate you will have lost overwhelmingly.

    Finally I agree that Israel is saved under the new covenant. The old covenant never saved anyone. Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. The rituals were prophetic acts of the blood that would be shed by Jesus. Isaiah said
    For all those things My hand has made,
    And all those things exist,”
    Says the LORD.
    “But on this one will I look:
    On him who is poor and of a contrite spirit,
    And who trembles at My word.
    3 “He who kills a bull is as if he slays a man;
    He who sacrifices a lamb, as if he breaks a dog’s neck;
    He who offers a grain offering, as if he offers swine’s blood;
    He who burns incense, as if he blesses an idol.

    So the key dispute is Israel. The new covenant was promised in Jer 31.I am pasting the whole context of Jer 31 which promises some very specific things that are key to note. If you read the whole passage there are many verses that are specific to Israel and Judah that cannot be applied to the church. here is the passage.
    31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,[fn] says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
    35 Thus says the LORD,
    Who gives the sun for a light by day,
    The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
    Who disturbs the sea,
    And its waves roar
    (The LORD of hosts is His name):
    36 “If those ordinances depart
    From before Me, says the LORD,
    Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
    From being a nation before Me forever.”
    37 Thus says the LORD:
    “If heaven above can be measured,
    And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath,
    I will also cast off all the seed of Israel
    For all that they have done, says the LORD.
    38 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that the city shall be built for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The surveyor’s line shall again extend straight forward over the hill Gareb; then it shall turn toward Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever.”

    Jesus brings in the new covenant but Jeremiah promises that Israel will not cease to be a nation before Gods eyes35-37. 38-40 speak of specific borders in Israel will be built and it shall not be plucked down anymore. This time begins when the valley is full of dead bodies and the city needs to be built again. Israel is brought into the new covenant in Zech 14 It is being overun and when they see Jesus and say the LORD is one is when Israel is brought in. They understand Jesus is God messiah savior. They are delivered just as LUKE 1 promised. Jesus takes the throne of David as promised in many places. This is the day that Jer 31 saw when it says or they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

    I understand the Rothchild's and their role in Zionism. So you say Israel is not legit. I maintain Satan wants to commit the abomination of desolation and is working to achieve it. anyways this is a long post but you can see my foundation is taking scripture literally and it holds together. Asos dispensational theology is not new as you suggested.
  5. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

    The trinity is in the old testament hinted at but not clearly understood. It says God LORD created all things and in the new testament we see Jesus created all things. The day the enemies are made his footstool is the day of recompense and Jesus is LORD and like creation he is not sitting idle but the very one who works the wrath. Here are just a few scriptures that all point to the same day.

    The LORD shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion.
    Rule in the midst of Your enemies!
    3 Your people shall be volunteers
    In the day of Your power;
    In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning,
    You have the dew of Your youth.
    4 The LORD has sworn
    And will not relent,
    “You are a priest forever
    According to the order of Melchizedek.”
    5 The Lord is at Your right hand;
    He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath.
    6 He shall judge among the nations,
    He shall fill the places with dead bodies,
    He shall execute the heads of many countries.
    7 He shall drink of the brook by the wayside;
    Therefore He shall lift up the head.
    He who sits in the heavens shall laugh;
    The Lord shall hold them in derision.
    5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath,
    And distress them in His deep displeasure:
    6 “Yet I have set My King
    On My holy hill of Zion.”
    7 “I will declare the decree:
    The LORD has said to Me,
    ‘You are My Son,
    Today I have begotten You.
    8 Ask of Me, and I will give You
    The nations for Your inheritance,
    And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
    9 You shall break[fn] them with a rod of iron;
    You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’ ”
    isaiah 63
    1 Who is this who comes from Edom,
    With dyed garments from Bozrah,
    This One who is glorious in His apparel,
    Traveling in the greatness of His strength?—
    “I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save.”
    2 Why is Your apparel red,
    And Your garments like one who treads in the winepress?
    3 “I have trodden the winepress alone,
    And from the peoples no one was with Me.
    For I have trodden them in My anger,
    And trampled them in My fury;
    Their blood is sprinkled upon My garments,
    And I have stained all My robes.
    4 For the day of vengeance is in My heart,
    And the year of My redeemed has come.
    5 I looked, but there was no one to help,
    And I wondered
    That there was no one to uphold;
    Therefore My own arm brought salvation for Me;
    And My own fury, it sustained Me.
    6 I have trodden down the peoples in My anger,
    Made them drunk in My fury,
    And brought down their strength to the earth.”

    rev 14
    8 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.” 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs.

    rev 19
    11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had[fn] a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean,[fn] followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp[fn] sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

    In Isiah 2 we see how after this take over by Jesus all these type of passages will fall into place
    The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
    2 Now it shall come to pass in the latter days
    That the mountain of the LORD’s house
    Shall be established on the top of the mountains,
    And shall be exalted above the hills;
    And all nations shall flow to it.
    3 Many people shall come and say,
    “Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
    To the house of the God of Jacob;
    He will teach us His ways,
    And we shall walk in His paths.”
    For out of Zion shall go forth the law,
    And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
    4 He shall judge between the nations,
    And rebuke many people;
    They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
    And their spears into pruning hooks;
    Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
    Neither shall they learn war anymore.

    I have maintained that this begins when satan is bound and Jesus has come. This is all future and lined up.
  6. Goatee

    Goatee Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

    United Kingdom
    Jesus does rule. Those that have utter faith in him should know that he does rule. He has ruled from the very day he rose from the dead!
  7. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

    Jesus has not taken the control and authority that scriptures say he will. To those who believe in Him now I agree he is king and Lord but he has not rid the world or mans government or satans influence all things prophesied in great detail that are to happen. So in this sense he has not taken over and the world is obviously not following the LORD as king.
  8. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

    Thank you for your response, however again you did not really answer the question. Is Christ in heaven or on earth when his enemies are made a foot stool?
  9. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

    He is on earth the transition cannot be any clearer as Jesus treads the winepress of the wrath of God and his garments are stained his feet stand in that day on the MT of Olives. He slays with the sword of his word. He enters our dimension and is seen with the brightness of his coming and perhaps this destruction take place instantly. You see Jesus said And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. He takes that authority on the day he makes his enemies his footstool. Col 1 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

    I can read all these events show Jesus coming in the clouds and then being on earth and a continuation of events on earth after he has come with his saints. The word until I am not going to get hung up on as the thing accomplished is Jesus leaves the throne of heaven and takes the throne of David for 1000 years. His enemies are destroyed on the day this happens. The unity of the Father and Jesus would and has made the works of the two the same as i noted in creation the LORD could make Jesus enemies his footstool by the actions of Jesus himself since they are equal and both God. Jesus acting is the same as the LORD acting as with all the verses giving both credit for the creation.
  10. Goatee

    Goatee Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

    United Kingdom
    Jesus has been and conquered. He lives within us and we in Him.
  11. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    Modern Dispensational Theology is absolutely not based on a "literal" interpretation, as its proponents often claim.

    The exact New Covenant text from Jeremiah 31:31-34 is repeated word-for-word in Hebrews 8:6-13 and is bracketed with two verses making it clear that Christ fulfilled this during the first century and that the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete". Therefore, God is not going back to the Old Covenant during a future time as Classic Dispensationalists claim. The New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20. This means the Church Age will not come to an end before the Second Coming of Christ. On the Day of Pentecost Peter addressed the crowd as "men of Judea", then as "men of Israel", and in Acts 2:36 as "all the house of Israel". On that day about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and spoken by Christ at the Last Supper in Matthew 26:28.

    There is no trip back to heaven in 1 Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5. The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove that chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4. The timing of the event in chapter 4 occurs on the day of the Lord, when He comes as a thief. Based on 2 Peter 3:10 and Revelation 16:15-16, it is clearly a Second Coming event.

    John the Baptist warned his own people to not put their confidence in being Abraham's seed in Matthew 3:9. We are warned against using endless genealogies in 1 Timothy 1:4.
    However, at least part of your doctrine is built upon genealogies.

    In Matthew 21 we find that Christ is the "heir", instead of those who reject Him as the "chief cornerstone". He said the kingdom would be taken from them and given to another nation.
    In 1 Peter 2:4-9 we find out who is that nation who accepted the "chief cornerstone".

    Jesus Christ is the ultimate fulfillment of Israel.
    We find this in the first verse in the New Testament at Matthew 1:1.
    It is confirmed by Paul in Galatians 3:16, where he makes it clear that the Abrahamic promise was made to the one seed and not the many seeds, as you are implying.

    None of the New Testament authors talked about a future time when modern Jews will come to faith outside of the Church.

    Very few Dispensationalists know the true origin of their doctrine.

    At one time I was a deacon in a conservative Bible church that taught the doctrine.
    When I could not get the doctrine to match my Bible, I did some research to find out who started teaching the doctrine and when this happened. I was shocked when I discovered that John Nelson Darby brought the doctrine to America, about the time of the Civil War.

    I produced the following video for YouTube, based on the research that I did several years ago.

  12. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter


    The discussion here is not about the spiritual temple of Jesus body. But rather, the stone building temple He will build according to Zech.6:12-13, described in Ez,40-47. The Millennial temple that He will build in Jerusalem. Review the following:

    THERE WILL BE TWO MORE TEMPLES BUILT IN ISRAEL in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum

    Last edited: Jul 5, 2017
  13. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

    Hi Brian McNamee,

    While I often agree with you there are a couple of points you may like to consider.

    God the Father has given all judgment to the Son. Thus at the beginning of the trib. we see that He has been given the power & authority to then put down all rebellious rule. We read that He does throughout the trib. before He comes back to earth in power & great glory.

    Thus He takes the authority to do all that when God the Father makes Him the visible ruler in the third heaven. All authority (under God the Father) operates from that seat of power and authority. Note the millennial reign is but part of Christ`s supreme authority.

  14. saint2

    saint2 Regular Member Supporter

    United States
    Marilyn, will you please provide a few scriptural references to your very interesting statements? I'm having some difficulty following your train of thought. Thanks.

  15. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

    This is the temple of God built by Christ, for he is the cornerstone. A physical temple will serve no purpose as we now worship in spirit and truth.

    Ephesians 2:18-22 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you (gentiles) are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.
  16. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

    I would disagree. He already has the authority. He remains in heaven UNTIL all his enemies are made a foot stool, with the last enemy of death to defeat(acts 2:34-35 Hebrews 10:13 1 Corinthians 15). While he is in heaven he is seated at the right hand of God far above ALL rule and authority and power and dominion with angels, authorities, and powers subject to Him, not only in THIS age, but the age to come.

    Ephesians 1:20-22 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church,

    1 Peter 3:22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2017
  17. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

    This is intersting, as Jesus coming on the clouds can be referred to as how Christ was presented to the Father when He ascended to heaven.

    Daniel 7:13 “I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him.

    Christ even tells the high priest that Christ himself will fulfill this and the high priest will see it.

    Matthew 26:64 Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
  18. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter


    Yes! That is all correct! But it has nothing to do with the Scriptural facts there will be two more stone building temples of God built in Jerusalem, as I told you previously.


    The tribulation temple:

    Matthew 24:15 - When you see the “abomination of desolation,” spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place…

    2 Thessalonians 2:4 - "...so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God"

    Revelation 11:1 - "...Go and measure the temple of God and the alter..."

    The Millennial temple:

    Ezekiel 43:7 - "...this is the place of my throne...This is where I will live among the Israelites forever."

    Ezekiel 43:27 - …your priests will your burnt offerings and peace offerings on the altar, and I will accept you, declares the Lord.

    Zechariah 6:12 - Here is the Man whose name is the Branch, and he will…build the temple of the Lord. At the present time there is no temple on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem,the location of both the first and second Jewish Temples. Instead, two Muslim shrines, The Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque, stand on the Temple Mount. Meantime, the Jewish people to consider the Temple Mount to be the most sacred place for Jews in all the world. No wonder the Temple Mount is a political powder keg and must be part of any
    formula for peace in the Middle East!

    According to the Bible, a temple will once again stand on the Temple Mount. How and when the Temple Mount will be available for a future temple remains to be seen. Biblical prophecy “buffs” have proposed all kinds of potential scenarios for how all of this could take place—everything from earthquakes to explosives to the collapse of the Temple Mount platform!

    Some well-meaning Christians have felt that the biblical predictions of a future Temple should be spiritualized, saying that these prophecies refer to the Church or to the individual Christian. Indeed, 1 Corinthians 3:16 makes it quite clear that the Church, as the body of Christ, is the spiritual temple of the Holy Spirit. And in 1 Corinthians 6:19 we are taught that the physical body of every individual believer is to be honored and kept clean, because it is the temple of the Holy Spirit. But these wonderful New Testament truths do not alter the biblical predictions of a literal future Temple in Jerusalem.

    The question of a future Temple gets more complicated when we realize that the Bible teaches that two temples are yet to stand on the Temple Mount in the future. First will come a Tribulation Temple, followed by a Millennium Temple which will be built when the Lord returns and sets up His kingdom on this earth. Let's look at the Scriptures dealing with
    these two future temples.

    Here: Israel's Third and Fourth Temples

    Here: Millennial Temple Model of Ezekiel's vision, Third 3rd temples, 40-48 Jesus Israeli Land Holy Portion Jewish Messiah Yahshua [No tribulation temple shown]

  19. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

    Hi there is some good information about the exact location of the temple mount and the debate is that the dome of the rock sits on the site of the Antonio fortress not the temple mount and thus it would be in the outer court. Josephus said you could not see the temple coming in to jerusalem from a certain direction and from that directions you would see the dome of the rock. The temple required running water and a little ways away is the brook of Kidron which would have been the water source for the temple. A book in the 40's made this case and recently this book was revisited by some others who tested the hypothesis and they wrote a subsequent book on this subject. I did not read the book but saw the author give a lecture on the subject and it seems quite plausible. That would make things a little less complicated.
  20. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter


    Do you have the name of the book and the author?

    You might be interested in the following:

    The Location of the Temple and the Holy of Holies on the Temple Mount

    Last edited: Jul 5, 2017