"Jesus is mean, Mary is nice" Sentimentality in Orthodoxy

[ArmyMatt]

God the Son is Eternal God. Yes truly God and truly human.

The human agency added of blessed Mary is what I objected to. There are absolutely no Apostolic teachings in Holy Scriptures nor the early church putting blessed Mary in the role of convincing the Risen and Glorified Christ Jesus on mercy, grace and judgment.

no one ever said she actually gets Christ to change His mind. this goes to my earlier point about Abraham seeming to haggle with God over Sodom.

 

[Lukaris]

Accounts like this I have to say I basically shrug my shoulders, discard & conclude as being of no benefit to me but maybe for someone else.

 

[tz620q]

What do you think happened at the wedding at Cana?

When the wine gave out, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” And Jesus said to her, “O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come.” His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”​

Dr. Edward Sri had an interesting commentary on this interplay. He said that both Jesus and His mother knew of Jesus' need to walk toward the cross. When Jesus states, "My hour has not yet come.", there is the implication that if He grants his mother's request, it will start that walk. After that miracle, there will be no going back. So the implied question between Jesus and his mother is "Are we ready to start this journey together?" His mother saying "Do whatever he tells you." is her saying, I am ready.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Dr. Edward Sri had an interesting commentary on this interplay. He said that both Jesus and His mother knew of Jesus' need to walk toward the cross. When Jesus states, "My hour has not yet come.", there is the implication that if He grants his mother's request, it will start that walk. After that miracle, there will be no going back. So the implied question between Jesus and his mother is "Are we ready to start this journey together?" His mother saying "Do whatever he tells you." is her saying, I am ready.

it's an interesting thought, but Scripturally speaking that walk began long before Cana.

 

[tz620q]

it's an interesting thought, but Scripturally speaking that walk began long before Cana.

True, Jesus knew his purpose and his time. Maybe this interchange was just to be gentle with His mother and get her consent for His plan. There is another interesting note in this dialogue too. That is Jesus refers to His mother as Woman, just as God refers to Eve as Woman. So the plan laid out by God in Genesis 3:15 in the Garden after the fall of having her seed bruising the head of the serpent, is referred back to by Jesus calling his mother Woman. Quite a long time (in our eyes) between the two times.

 

[ArmyMatt]

True, Jesus knew his purpose and his time. Maybe this interchange was just to be gentle with His mother and get her consent for His plan. There is another interesting note in this dialogue too. That is Jesus refers to His mother as Woman, just as God refers to Eve as Woman. So the plan laid out by God in Genesis 3:15 in the Garden after the fall of having her seed bruising the head of the serpent, is referred back to by Jesus calling his mother Woman. Quite a long time (in our eyes) between the two times.

He didn't need her consent, though, and she was already aware of why her Son was here.

 

[All4Christ]

That seems fair, but the question still remains why the contrast is posed in the way that it is such that the OP can summarize it in that way (although it is not exactly accurate or most nuanced, as noted). We might also ask, then (on Voice In The Desert, not here...), why others did not develop this as the EO did, when we hold many other things in common in the area of proper veneration of the Theotokos. Is this a later EO tradition in the form found in the OP? I mean, it specifies 807 AD, which is 'too late' for my taste (in the sense of having to care about it; had it not been brought up here, I would've never heard of it), but it still deserves some sort of answer.

And we all hold to the notion of Christ the Just Judge, I would think. Remember the Compline prayers of the Agpeya, which mirror this dynamic (contrast the litanies: "Behold I am about to stand before the Just Judge, terrified and trembling because of my many sins..." and "O pure Virgin, overshadow your servant with your instant help..."), also without saying that St. Mary is somehow holding back her Son's stern judgment or whatever.

I dunno. I like where you're going with this, but I'm still confused.

For what it’s worth, “Mary holding a stern Jesus back” isn’t a common EO theme from my experience. Mary is seen as pleading for us, but I haven’t considered it to be Jesus wanting to withhold mercy and “giving in”. On the other hand, we do have the example of the wedding of Cana, in which Jesus denies the request and eventually “gives in”. Never have been quite sure how that all works together.

One of our most common icons of Jesus shows him in two ways in the same icon: Christ the Judge, and Christ who blesses us. We definitely don’t consider Jesus to only be a stern disciplinarian and not to be merciful and loving.

 

[buzuxi02]

She intercesses on our behalf. But Mary can only interceed if we play our part and follow Him (John 2:5). She shows "the way" which is Christ.

 

[tampasteve]

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