"Jesus is mean, Mary is nice" Sentimentality in Orthodoxy

[ArmyMatt]

Is what you posted truly Orthodox teaching?

yes, but the issue should be about meaning, and not word choice. that certainly can be read in an erroneous way, so it depends on what we mean.

 

[prodromos]

Part of the issue here is that the incident involved monastics, and you will often find that literature written by monks for the benefit of other monks holds them to a much higher standard. The monks are on the front lines of spiritual warfare and while lax discipline won't ordinarily get you into too much trouble back home, on the front line it can mean life or death.
In the account of the icon changing (it was actually a large fresco on the outside wall of the monastery church), Christ actually refers to the monks as lazy, which isn't in the link above, so it is clear to me that the monks needed a bit of a wake up call. It is also possible that they needed a little reminder as to how much Panagia cares for the monks on Mt Athos.
I remember another account where a monastery had fallen on difficult times, and rather than trust God to provide, they stopped providing hospitality to pilgrims. As a result, God allowed them to suffer even more hardship until the abbot cried out to God and He revealed the source of their hardship. Once they began providing for pilgrims out of the little they still had then all their needs were provided.

 

[redleghunter]

yes, but the issue should be about meaning, and not word choice. that certainly can be read in an erroneous way, so it depends on what we mean.

Words convey meaning so please explain.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Words convey meaning so please explain.

I already did in my response to dzheremi.

and what prodromos said

 

[redleghunter]

I already did in my response to dzheremi.

Thank you I will look at that.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Thank you I will look at that.

good, love to hear your thoughts

 

[redleghunter]

whenever she appears to hold back her Son, she really isn't holding Him back. in my reading, it's to show how severe His judgment is to inspire repentance.

That is an interesting take on the narrative. As when Jesus God the Son our Christ returns He will be the Conquering King putting all nations under His feet.

The only point I would make is eternally He is both Savior and Judge and no human, not even His blessed mother can intervene in what is eternally His Divine attributes. He brings Mercy and Grace to those who belong to Him and follow Him, and Wrath and Judgment to those who reject Him.

 

[prodromos]

An interesting story but false.

I've been to the Monasteri of Vatopedi. I've seen the icon. You really don't know what you are talking about.

 

[ArmyMatt]

That is an interesting take on the narrative. As when Jesus God the Son our Christ returns He will be the Conquering King putting all nations under His feet.

The only point I would make is eternally He is both Savior and Judge and no human, not even His blessed mother can intervene in what is eternally His Divine attributes. He brings Mercy and Grace to those who belong to Him and follow Him, and Wrath and Judgment to those who reject Him.

no, He is human, it's just that He is Divine as well. He is the Word made flesh. and she can intervene, but only according to His Divine plan.

 

[AMM]

Yes it can seem a bit like Anselm's theology, or like some Redempterix stuff of the present day Catholic Church, but even some of that stuff had roots in the older Tradition.

Interesting, do you know what some of the oldest are examples of these things are?

Well I guess in a way asking for her intercession (or any saint's intercession, but perhaps especially hers given her unique relationship as the mother of our Lord, God, and Savior) is asking for a kind of reprieve, no matter the wording. I mean, we do say in one of the hymns for Kiahk (the 4th Coptic month of the year, c. early December to early January, which is especially dedicated to the veneration of the Theotokos and is popularly called "St. Mary's month", for obvious reasons considering that we celebrate the Nativity on January 7th) "No boldness have we before God, but by your intercessions", and of course we also call her "the ark of salvation" and many similar things. Whether or not we have the exact phrase that is in an EO hymn, I couldn't say.

True, that’s a good point. We do say things similar to that prayer you gave at the end, and call her the ark of salvation, etc. But yeah I guess anytime we ask a saint to help us, we’re asking them to pray to God that he grant us mercy - so I guess it is a wording thing more than an understanding

do you think Abraham really got God to reconsider Sodom for a while?

No; would it be correct to say that God was planning what actually happened, but he wanted Abraham, Moses, etc. to intercede for us, expressing their love for the people?

When we look at the Old Testament, we see many examples of righteous people interceding with God. One could look at it and say that God changed His mind, but we confess God to be unchanging. I think it's better to think of it in terms of God wanting us to intercede for others. He wants us to be part of each other's lives. So we hear what the people deserve for their sins, God wants to have mercy, but He waits for us to make intercession before He has mercy so that we know what we deserve and we know that we are to make intercession for one another.

If we look to the New Testament, to the Wedding at Cana, we see the Mother of God intercede with her Son. He tells her that His hour has not come, but nevertheless He grants her request.

I would also say that there are many accounts of miraculous occurrences. The details of these accounts will sometimes differ one from another. It would be a mistake to take any particular detail to the level of a dogmatic statement. One could take issue with the exact wording of the account and still understand that a miracle occurred and that the basic content of the miracle is correct.

So to your first point, God does this in order to show us the importance of prayer and love for one another?

And to your last point - that makes sense. It’s like if we took hymnography and poetry and took it super literally

Part of the issue here is that the incident involved monastics, and you will often find that literature written by monks for the benefit of other monks holds them to a much higher standard. The monks are on the front lines of spiritual warfare and while lax discipline won't ordinarily get you into too much trouble back home, on the front line it can mean life or death.
In the account of the icon changing (it was actually a large fresco on the outside wall of the monastery church), Christ actually refers to the monks as lazy, which isn't in the link above, so it is clear to me that the monks needed a bit of a wake up call. It is also possible that they needed a little reminder as to how much Panagia cares for the monks on Mt Athos.
I remember another account where a monastery had fallen on difficult times, and rather than trust God to provide, they stopped providing hospitality to pilgrims. As a result, God allowed them to suffer even more hardship until the abbot cried out to God and He revealed the source of their hardship. Once they began providing for pilgrims out of the little they still had then all their needs were provided.

Oh that’s interesting. I didn’t know the rest of this story. But I guess that makes sense - the point isn’t that “Jesus would damn us all out of anger if it weren’t for St Mary” - it’s that we need to repent and that St Mary loves us (or the monks, in this case)

 

[ArmyMatt]

No; would it be correct to say that God was planning what actually happened, but he wanted Abraham, Moses, etc. to intercede for us, expressing their love for the people?

yep, and God saw Abraham's prayer from before the foundation of the world. just like how He saw this icon's miracle from before the foundation of the world. so it's possible He seems stern to make them repent, because He knew such a harsh warning would be what they needed.

 

[AMM]

yep, and God saw Abraham's prayer from before the foundation of the world. just like how He saw this icon's miracle from before the foundation of the world. so it's possible He seems stern to make them repent, because He knew such a harsh warning would be what they needed.

What is the reason that he remains appearing stern, after they repented? As a reminder to them to “sin no more, that nothing worse may befall you” type of thing?

A bit unrelated but I was listening to something the other day (I think an interview on AFR with Mother Aemiliane of St Nina’s Monastery), and the person said that although we might think the other way, it’s much more amazing when a person helps another person than if an angel helps a person. Because angels are created in order to serve humans, but men have free will and choose to love each other through their actions, their prayers, etc. Like I said it’s not super related but something in this thread reminded me of that

 

[icxn]

Part of the issue here is that the incident involved monastics, and you will often find that literature written by monks for the benefit of other monks holds them to a much higher standard. The monks are on the front lines of spiritual warfare and while lax discipline won't ordinarily get you into too much trouble back home, on the front line it can mean life or death...

This is a very good observation. "To those that much is given, much is expected..."(cf Luke 12:48) and "God is great and terrible toward all that are round about him" (LXX Psalm 88:8)

 

[ArmyMatt]

What is the reason that he remains appearing stern, after they repented? As a reminder to them to “sin no more, that nothing worse may befall you” type of thing?

A bit unrelated but I was listening to something the other day (I think an interview on AFR with Mother Aemiliane of St Nina’s Monastery), and the person said that although we might think the other way, it’s much more amazing when a person helps another person than if an angel helps a person. Because angels are created in order to serve humans, but men have free will and choose to love each other through their actions, their prayers, etc. Like I said it’s not super related but something in this thread reminded me of that

it's entirely possible, again so they repent, that He remain stern. it's only after we truly repent that He says to sin no more.

 

[redleghunter]

no, He is human, it's just that He is Divine as well. He is the Word made flesh. and she can intervene, but only according to His Divine plan.

God the Son is Eternal God. Yes truly God and truly human.

The human agency added of blessed Mary is what I objected to. There are absolutely no Apostolic teachings in Holy Scriptures nor the early church putting blessed Mary in the role of convincing the Risen and Glorified Christ Jesus on mercy, grace and judgment.

 

[prodromos]

The human agency added of blessed Mary is what I objected to. There are absolutely no Apostolic teachings in Holy Scriptures nor the early church putting blessed Mary in the role of convincing the Risen and Glorified Christ Jesus on mercy, grace and judgment.

What do you think happened at the wedding at Cana?

When the wine gave out, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” And Jesus said to her, “O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come.” His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”​

 

[redleghunter]

What do you think happened at the wedding at Cana?

I think you all overplay that hand.

 

[prodromos]

I think you all overplay that hand.

You said there was absolutely nothing. I don't think that passage agrees with you.

 

[redleghunter]

You said there was absolutely nothing. I don't think that passage agrees with you.

Requesting extra wine at a wedding and being “shushed” about the Divine attributes of Grace and Mercy are not in the same ballpark let alone the same sport.

In fact the narrative presented in the OP Jesus is an obedient baby figure when in fact He is the Risen and Glorified King is quite blasphemous. Why because it depicts Christ as abdicating His Divine and Eternal attributes of Mercy and Grace to His mortal mother.

 

[prodromos]

Requesting extra wine at a wedding and being “shushed” about the Divine attributes of Grace and Mercy are not in the same ballpark let alone the same sport.

I disagree, but I also have to admit that I am not entirely sure what you are talking about. I suspect though that you are missing the point. Jesus is not having His mind changed by His mother, it was always His will that the monks be warned of the danger outside, but He used the manner of the warning to also shake them up as they had become spiritually complacent.

In fact the narrative presented in the OP Jesus is an obedient baby figure when in fact He is the Risen and Glorified King is quite blasphemous. Why because it depicts Christ as abdicating His Divine and Eternal attributes of Mercy and Grace to His mortal mother.

The icon depicts the theology of Christ's incarnation in visual terms, and even though Christ is depicted as a child, He is still Lord God Almighty. Christ chose to work through this particular icon because the Abbot of the monastery always went first thing every morning to venerate that icon of Mary and the Christ child where he would ask God to bless their day.