"Jesus is mean, Mary is nice" Sentimentality in Orthodoxy

[AMM]

Hi all, I recognize that my title isn't necessarily very appropriate. But I'm wondering if you guys can help me understand something, which I can only characterize as the above. Essentially, it's the idea that Jesus is stern, harsh, and unforgiving, but Mary is kind and loving and gets Jesus to change his mind (or sometimes goes against what Jesus says in order to be "nicer"). This type of attitude seems more in line with Catholicism, or at least in polemic arguments about Catholicism.

For example, here's the passage that is the specific catalyst to this thread, although I've read things like this at other times.

The "Otrada"--Consolation Icon (link), OrthoChristian.com

In the year 807, a band of robbers decided to loot the monastery [of Vatopedi], but the Queen of Heaven warned the brethren of their intent. During the Morning Prayer Rule, the monastery Abbot heard a voice coming from the Icon and saying, “Do not open the monastery gates today. Instead, go to the top of the walls, and tell the bandits to disperse.” Gazing at the Icon, the abbot witnessed an amazing miracle: The Pre-eternal Infant, covering His Mother’s mouth with His hand, said, “No, My Mother, don’t tell them that. Let them be punished.” However, the Mother of God, leaning Her face toward Her Son, twice repeated the same warning. The abbot, overcome with terror, told the monastic brethren about the miracle, and they were all amazed to see that the icon had changed its appearance and overall form: The Most-Holy Virgin holds back Her Son, and Her face expresses compassionate love, and Her gaze is filled with meekness and mercy, while the Divine Infant’s face has a stern, grim expression.​

To put it bluntly, what's going on here? Why is Christ portrayed as stern and unforgiving, mean, trying to give the monks punishments, whereas St Mary is saying "no, no, let's be nice to them" in opposition to Christ's protests?

I'm not saying Christ isn't a firm judge - he certainly is. And if he chooses to allow some people to be punished and others not to be, then may this all be for our salvation: Lord have mercy!

Why is Christ "grim" and why does the Theotokos go against Christ? Or, perhaps more in line with the sentiment of the passage, why does Christ go against the Theotokos? How is this Orthodox, to show that Christ and his Mother are not in accord and are not united in their will?

 

[nutroll]

Why is God mean and Moses is nice? I think sometimes these things are for didactic purposes that we might understand that we are deserving of punishment but God is merciful. If all we experience is the mercy without understanding that we don't deserve it, we might persist in our sins rather than repenting and living according to God's commandments.

 

[Blade]

Well thats not the Christ I know. In my life there is no human that has matched His kindness His mercy His grace His forgiveness. His arms have always been open and every time I felt hurt betrayed sick overwhelmed crushed.. you name it. He always just picks me up and reminds me how He sees me.. the real me. And how He over came the world. And that I have the joy of the lord, His peace, His/Gods armor on and on.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Hi all, I recognize that my title isn't necessarily very appropriate. But I'm wondering if you guys can help me understand something, which I can only characterize as the above. Essentially, it's the idea that Jesus is stern, harsh, and unforgiving, but Mary is kind and loving and gets Jesus to change his mind (or sometimes goes against what Jesus says in order to be "nicer"). This type of attitude seems more in line with Catholicism, or at least in polemic arguments about Catholicism.

For example, here's the passage that is the specific catalyst to this thread, although I've read things like this at other times.

The "Otrada"--Consolation Icon (link), OrthoChristian.com

In the year 807, a band of robbers decided to loot the monastery [of Vatopedi], but the Queen of Heaven warned the brethren of their intent. During the Morning Prayer Rule, the monastery Abbot heard a voice coming from the Icon and saying, “Do not open the monastery gates today. Instead, go to the top of the walls, and tell the bandits to disperse.” Gazing at the Icon, the abbot witnessed an amazing miracle: The Pre-eternal Infant, covering His Mother’s mouth with His hand, said, “No, My Mother, don’t tell them that. Let them be punished.” However, the Mother of God, leaning Her face toward Her Son, twice repeated the same warning. The abbot, overcome with terror, told the monastic brethren about the miracle, and they were all amazed to see that the icon had changed its appearance and overall form: The Most-Holy Virgin holds back Her Son, and Her face expresses compassionate love, and Her gaze is filled with meekness and mercy, while the Divine Infant’s face has a stern, grim expression.​

To put it bluntly, what's going on here? Why is Christ portrayed as stern and unforgiving, mean, trying to give the monks punishments, whereas St Mary is saying "no, no, let's be nice to them" in opposition to Christ's protests?

I'm not saying Christ isn't a firm judge - he certainly is. And if he chooses to allow some people to be punished and others not to be, then may this all be for our salvation: Lord have mercy!

Why is Christ "grim" and why does the Theotokos go against Christ? Or, perhaps more in line with the sentiment of the passage, why does Christ go against the Theotokos? How is this Orthodox, to show that Christ and his Mother are not in accord and are not united in their will?

who says they aren't in one accord? Mary never does anything in conflict with her Son. usually, whenever He seems harsh, He's doing it out of love so we'll repent.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Well thats not the Christ I know. In my life there is no human that has matched His kindness His mercy His grace His forgiveness. His arms have always been open and every time I felt hurt betrayed sick overwhelmed crushed.. you name it. He always just picks me up and reminds me how He sees me.. the real me. And how He over came the world. And that I have the joy of the lord, His peace, His/Gods armor on and on.

sure, but you're not everyone. the same love that embraces the repentant also judges the sinner.

 

[dzheremi]

Boy...having a debate forum sure is fun, isn't it? Yikes.

I'm with AMM, though, in that I can't really understand what it's saying. Mary "Holds back" her Son how? In what way? There are plenty of Mariological hymns/Theotokias in my own Church tradition, but I don't know that any of them say things like that. We say things like "ask your Son to save us from the fire" (clearly a plea for intercession), or "He Who abides in light which no one can approach showed us His miracles, and you fed Him" (showing the relationship between the Lord Jesus and His mother the Theotokos to still be a special one in ways that are unique to her, but not saying that she "holds Him back" or whatever).

Can someone please explain this beyond saying "They're not in conflict"? (I hope that's not rude; I really am just looking for more information as to what that means in your Church.)

 

[Pavel Mosko]

To put it bluntly, what's going on here? Why is Christ portrayed as stern and unforgiving, mean, trying to give the monks punishments, whereas St Mary is saying "no, no, let's be nice to them" in opposition to Christ's protests?

I'm not saying Christ isn't a firm judge - he certainly is. And if he chooses to allow some people to be punished and others not to be, then may this all be for our salvation: Lord have mercy!

Why is Christ "grim" and why does the Theotokos go against Christ? Or, perhaps more in line with the sentiment of the passage, why does Christ go against the Theotokos? How is this Orthodox, to show that Christ and his Mother are not in accord and are not united in their will?

Ok this is just a basic hypothesis but it stems from the notion of the Temple in Christian worship, that as a continued paradigm in the Divine liturgy and ancient Christian worship in general as far as the sacraments etc. goes.
LiturgicaMusic.com



Since Christ at one time dealt with the money changers in the temple, and Christ also prophesied in the Book Of Revelation, words of correction to the Seven Churches might He not do the same thing for the EO, especially if they claim to be thee Church? Well that is my best guess, based on basic Christian theology, typology etc.


1 Peter 4:17
17For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who disobey the gospel of God?

 

[redleghunter]

The "Otrada"--Consolation Icon (link), OrthoChristian.com
In the year 807, a band of robbers decided to loot the monastery [of Vatopedi], but the Queen of Heaven warned the brethren of their intent. During the Morning Prayer Rule, the monastery Abbot heard a voice coming from the Icon and saying, “Do not open the monastery gates today. Instead, go to the top of the walls, and tell the bandits to disperse.” Gazing at the Icon, the abbot witnessed an amazing miracle: The Pre-eternal Infant, covering His Mother’s mouth with His hand, said, “No, My Mother, don’t tell them that. Let them be punished.” However, the Mother of God, leaning Her face toward Her Son, twice repeated the same warning. The abbot, overcome with terror, told the monastic brethren about the miracle, and they were all amazed to see that the icon had changed its appearance and overall form: The Most-Holy Virgin holds back Her Son, and Her face expresses compassionate love, and Her gaze is filled with meekness and mercy, while the Divine Infant’s face has a stern, grim expression.

An interesting story but false.

Matthew 11: NASB

25At that time Jesus said, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. 26“Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight. 27“All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

28“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. 29“Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. 30“For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”​

 

[AMM]

Why is God mean and Moses is nice? I think sometimes these things are for didactic purposes that we might understand that we are deserving of punishment but God is merciful. If all we experience is the mercy without understanding that we don't deserve it, we might persist in our sins rather than repenting and living according to God's commandments.

That comparison to Moses helps. So in the stories with Moses interceding before God and in this story, how are we to understand when God "changes his mind" (or "repents" as some translations put it)? In this story, for example, it seems like Christ begrudgingly submits to St Mary's wish to have mercy on the monks - not so much that she is interceding for us

who says they aren't in one accord? Mary never does anything in conflict with her Son. usually, whenever He seems harsh, He's doing it out of love so we'll repent.

I think the story (at least how I'm reading it) says that. Mary says "let's help" and Christ says "nope, don't help them" three times, until he finally... what? gives up? I guess the story doesn't really say, but the fact that it ends by emphasizing that Christ was still grim and stern, seems to indicate that he would've rather the monks be punished, and it's only due to Mary going against Christ's will that they aren't

Boy...having a debate forum sure is fun, isn't it? Yikes.

I'm with AMM, though, in that I can't really understand what it's saying. Mary "Holds back" her Son how? In what way? There are plenty of Mariological hymns/Theotokias in my own Church tradition, but I don't know that any of them say things like that. We say things like "ask your Son to save us from the fire" (clearly a plea for intercession), or "He Who abides in light which no one can approach showed us His miracles, and you fed Him" (showing the relationship between the Lord Jesus and His mother the Theotokos to still be a special one in ways that are unique to her, but not saying that she "holds Him back" or whatever).

Can someone please explain this beyond saying "They're not in conflict"? (I hope that's not rude; I really am just looking for more information as to what that means in your Church.)

Exactly - I don't have an issue with Mary interceding for us... it's the "holds back" language, and the fact that at the end Christ and Mary are depicted differently (Christ as stern, Mary as compassionate, loving, merciful)

Ok this is just a basic hypothesis but it stems from the notion of the Temple in Christian worship, that as a continued paradigm in the Divine liturgy and ancient Christian worship in general as far as the sacraments etc. goes.
LiturgicaMusic.com



Since Christ at one time dealt with the money changers in the temple, and Christ also prophesied in the Book Of Revelation, words of correction to the Seven Churches might He not do the same thing for the EO, especially if they claim to be thee Church? Well that is my best guess, based on basic Christian theology, typology etc.


1 Peter 4:17
17For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who disobey the gospel of God?

I don't have an issue with Christ being a judge here; certainly we deserve all manner of correction and judgment and afflictions. And even if Christ corrects and judges us, it is for our salvation and the preservation of the Church, then all the more - Glory to God!

 

[dzheremi]

Ok this is just a basic hypothesis but it stems from the notion of the Temple in Christian worship, that as a continued paradigm in the Divine liturgy and ancient Christian worship in general as far as the sacraments etc. goes.
LiturgicaMusic.com



Since Christ at one time dealt with the money changers in the temple, and Christ also prophesied in the Book Of Revelation, words of correction to the Seven Churches might He not do the same thing for the EO, especially if they claim to be thee Church? Well that is my best guess, based on basic Christian theology, typology etc.


1 Peter 4:17
17For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who disobey the gospel of God?

That seems fair, but the question still remains why the contrast is posed in the way that it is such that the OP can summarize it in that way (although it is not exactly accurate or most nuanced, as noted). We might also ask, then (on Voice In The Desert, not here...), why others did not develop this as the EO did, when we hold many other things in common in the area of proper veneration of the Theotokos. Is this a later EO tradition in the form found in the OP? I mean, it specifies 807 AD, which is 'too late' for my taste (in the sense of having to care about it; had it not been brought up here, I would've never heard of it), but it still deserves some sort of answer.

And we all hold to the notion of Christ the Just Judge, I would think. Remember the Compline prayers of the Agpeya, which mirror this dynamic (contrast the litanies: "Behold I am about to stand before the Just Judge, terrified and trembling because of my many sins..." and "O pure Virgin, overshadow your servant with your instant help..."), also without saying that St. Mary is somehow holding back her Son's stern judgment or whatever.

I dunno. I like where you're going with this, but I'm still confused.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I dunno. I like where you're going with this, but I'm still confused.

Well there is also the role of Mary as the King's mother. It is suppose to be the role of the King's mother to plead for the people.


The gebirah is believed by some scholars to have held great power as counsel of the king. In 1 Kings 2:20, Solomon said to his Mother Bathsheba, seated on a throne at his right, "Make your request, Mother, for I will not refuse you". William G. Most, a Catholic author, sees here a type of Mary.[1] The position of the queen mother (gĕbîrâ) was a privilege of the highest honour, and was the highest authority for a woman in Israel or Judah. In fact, the only time a woman held higher office was in the case of Athaliah, who held the throne of Judah as queen in her own right, despite being illegitimate in the eyes of the scripture.
Gebirah - Wikipedia


I don't think think that there is any contradicting, or at least that the contradicting is only apparent contradicting in much the same way that you can have paradoxes or conflicts in scripture etc.


I also think there is something very archetypal in all this. Male figures tend to be seen as more disciplinary, while females more nurturant etc.

 

[dzheremi]

That all makes sense. Thank you.

Again, I believe this same dynamic is mirrored in our prayers; it was just the wording as found in the OP that gave me pause, because I'd never heard something like that.

 

[AMM]

Is what you posted truly Orthodox teaching?

That's what I'm asking. I'm not going to presume that I'm wiser than the Church, but I'm hoping to understand in some feeble way what this means. At the end of the day, if this is Church teaching and I don't understand it, I'll still submit to what the Church teaches.

One day some old men came to see Abba Anthony. In the midst of them was Abba Joseph. Wanting to test them, the old man suggested a text from the Scriptures, and, beginning with the youngest, he asked them what it meant. Each gave his opinion as he was able. But to each one the old man said, “You have not understood it.” Last of all he said to Abba Joseph, “How would you explain this saying?” and he replied, “I do not know.” Then Abba Anthony said, “Indeed, Abba Joseph has found the way, for he has said: ‘I do not know.'”

I pray that I can have the humility of Abba Joseph to admit my own ignorance and lack of understanding, and yet remain faithful to the church

 

[AMM]

That seems fair, but the question still remains why the contrast is posed in the way that it is such that the OP can summarize it in that way (although it is not exactly accurate or most nuanced, as noted). We might also ask, then (on Voice In The Desert, not here...), why others did not develop this as the EO did, when we hold many other things in common in the area of proper veneration of the Theotokos. Is this a later EO tradition in the form found in the OP? I mean, it specifies 807 AD, which is 'too late' for my taste (in the sense of having to care about it; had it not been brought up here, I would've never heard of it), but it still deserves some sort of answer.

And we all hold to the notion of Christ the Just Judge, I would think. Remember the Compline prayers of the Agpeya, which mirror this dynamic (contrast the litanies: "Behold I am about to stand before the Just Judge, terrified and trembling because of my many sins..." and "O pure Virgin, overshadow your servant with your instant help..."), also without saying that St. Mary is somehow holding back her Son's stern judgment or whatever.

I dunno. I like where you're going with this, but I'm still confused.

Well there is also the role of Mary as the King's mother. It is suppose to be the role of the King's mother to plead for the people.


The gebirah is believed by some scholars to have held great power as counsel of the king. In 1 Kings 2:20, Solomon said to his Mother Bathsheba, seated on a throne at his right, "Make your request, Mother, for I will not refuse you". William G. Most, a Catholic author, sees here a type of Mary.[1] The position of the queen mother (gĕbîrâ) was a privilege of the highest honour, and was the highest authority for a woman in Israel or Judah. In fact, the only time a woman held higher office was in the case of Athaliah, who held the throne of Judah as queen in her own right, despite being illegitimate in the eyes of the scripture.
Gebirah - Wikipedia


I don't think think that there is any contradicting, or at least that the contradicting is only apparent contradicting in much the same way that you can have paradoxes or conflicts in scripture etc.


I also think there is something very archetypal in all this. Male figures tend to be seen as more disciplinary, while females more nurturant etc.

Interesting. That does make sense some, but it still gives me pause. It's almost as though it attributes salvation to Mary because she holds back Christ's judgment rather than the Orthodox teaching which, when it calls Mary the "salvation of all Christian people" (part of an EO prayer - idk if the OO have it), or many other phrases of praise, are a reference to her birth-giving of the God-man Christ, a reference to her piety and life which we should emulate, etc. Although I suppose her intercessions play a role in that too... (I'm thinking out loud here)

 

[zippy2006]

We might also ask, then (on Voice In The Desert, not here...), why others did not develop this as the EO did, when we hold many other things in common in the area of proper veneration of the Theotokos.

I realize you are referring to other eastern Churches, but in Catholicism this notion of, "Jesus is mean; Mary is nice," pops up here and there. As the OP observed, the roots of this are partially polemical, but I think a more innocuous source is popular piety. I take it to be one of the many cases where popular piety and doctrine part ways.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

That does make sense some, but it still gives me pause. It's almost as though it attributes salvation to Mary because she holds back Christ's judgment rather than the Orthodox teaching which, when it calls Mary the "salvation of all Christian people" (part of an EO prayer - idk if the OO have it),

Yes it can seem a bit like Anselm's theology, or like some Redempterix stuff of the present day Catholic Church, but even some of that stuff had roots in the older Tradition.

 

[dzheremi]

Well I guess in a way asking for her intercession (or any saint's intercession, but perhaps especially hers given her unique relationship as the mother of our Lord, God, and Savior) is asking for a kind of reprieve, no matter the wording. I mean, we do say in one of the hymns for Kiahk (the 4th Coptic month of the year, c. early December to early January, which is especially dedicated to the veneration of the Theotokos and is popularly called "St. Mary's month", for obvious reasons considering that we celebrate the Nativity on January 7th) "No boldness have we before God, but by your intercessions", and of course we also call her "the ark of salvation" and many similar things. Whether or not we have the exact phrase that is in an EO hymn, I couldn't say.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I think the story (at least how I'm reading it) says that. Mary says "let's help" and Christ says "nope, don't help them" three times, until he finally... what? gives up? I guess the story doesn't really say, but the fact that it ends by emphasizing that Christ was still grim and stern, seems to indicate that he would've rather the monks be punished, and it's only due to Mary going against Christ's will that they aren't

do you think Abraham really got God to reconsider Sodom for a while?

 

[nutroll]

That comparison to Moses helps. So in the stories with Moses interceding before God and in this story, how are we to understand when God "changes his mind" (or "repents" as some translations put it)? In this story, for example, it seems like Christ begrudgingly submits to St Mary's wish to have mercy on the monks - not so much that she is interceding for us


I think the story (at least how I'm reading it) says that. Mary says "let's help" and Christ says "nope, don't help them" three times, until he finally... what? gives up? I guess the story doesn't really say, but the fact that it ends by emphasizing that Christ was still grim and stern, seems to indicate that he would've rather the monks be punished, and it's only due to Mary going against Christ's will that they aren't


Exactly - I don't have an issue with Mary interceding for us... it's the "holds back" language, and the fact that at the end Christ and Mary are depicted differently (Christ as stern, Mary as compassionate, loving, merciful)


I don't have an issue with Christ being a judge here; certainly we deserve all manner of correction and judgment and afflictions. And even if Christ corrects and judges us, it is for our salvation and the preservation of the Church, then all the more - Glory to God!

When we look at the Old Testament, we see many examples of righteous people interceding with God. One could look at it and say that God changed His mind, but we confess God to be unchanging. I think it's better to think of it in terms of God wanting us to intercede for others. He wants us to be part of each other's lives. So we hear what the people deserve for their sins, God wants to have mercy, but He waits for us to make intercession before He has mercy so that we know what we deserve and we know that we are to make intercession for one another.

If we look to the New Testament, to the Wedding at Cana, we see the Mother of God intercede with her Son. He tells her that His hour has not come, but nevertheless He grants her request.

I would also say that there are many accounts of miraculous occurrences. The details of these accounts will sometimes differ one from another. It would be a mistake to take any particular detail to the level of a dogmatic statement. One could take issue with the exact wording of the account and still understand that a miracle occurred and that the basic content of the miracle is correct.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Boy...having a debate forum sure is fun, isn't it? Yikes.

I'm with AMM, though, in that I can't really understand what it's saying. Mary "Holds back" her Son how? In what way? There are plenty of Mariological hymns/Theotokias in my own Church tradition, but I don't know that any of them say things like that. We say things like "ask your Son to save us from the fire" (clearly a plea for intercession), or "He Who abides in light which no one can approach showed us His miracles, and you fed Him" (showing the relationship between the Lord Jesus and His mother the Theotokos to still be a special one in ways that are unique to her, but not saying that she "holds Him back" or whatever).

Can someone please explain this beyond saying "They're not in conflict"? (I hope that's not rude; I really am just looking for more information as to what that means in your Church.)

whenever she appears to hold back her Son, she really isn't holding Him back. in my reading, it's to show how severe His judgment is to inspire repentance.