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Jesus is Jehovah's "holy servant"

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by Dartman, Sep 2, 2017.

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  1. Ronald

    Ronald Exhortations

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    Well, Jesus will straighten things out for you.
    What is your view of the Holy Spirit? Is it a force, personified, not a person?
     
  2. JESUS=G.O.A.T

    JESUS=G.O.A.T Well-Known Member

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    I agree the proper original is he who however who he who is becomes the question. I believe he who is Jesus but I also believe that Jesus is God so it goes either way for me. I don't see how the KJV is in Error with God being there and this is coming from a non trinitarian. Many verses indicate that Jesus is supreme or God. Now there is a semi arian position that seems to be gaining popularity even though the JW faith is getting less popularity ironically and that's the belief that Jesus is a lower figure whether that be an angel (JW perspective) or something else. This view was once very prelevent ironically starting around the 4th century or so. It seems to be returning though
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2017
  3. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So you're casting your lot in with translations that are decidedly fringe whilst ignoring the fact that the vast majority of reputable translations specifically mentioned GOD became MAN.

    I'm so done.
     
  4. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So you believe in 2 saviors and cease to be monotheistic. Christianity is monotheistic, my friend.
     
  5. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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  6. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    It is God's mind, and the power produced by God's mind. "The power of the Highest".
     
  7. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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  8. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    Monotheistic means one Elohim/God, not one savior. There were several saviors in Scripture.

    Isaiah prophesied that YHWH would send a future savior to Egypt to deliver them from their oppressors.

    “And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto YHWH of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto YHWH because of the oppressors, and He shall send them a savior [yasha], and a great one, and he shall deliver them. “ Isaiah 19:20

    Nehemiah 9:27 speaks of saviors that Yahweh sent to save Israel.

    “Therefore you delivered them into the hand of their enemies, who vexed them: and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto you, you heard them from heaven; and according to your manifold mercies you gave them saviors [yasha], who saved [yasha] them out of the hand of their enemies.”​

    Obadiah also prophesied about future savior that will be sent to Israel.

    “And saviors [yasha] shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be YHWH’s.” Obadiah 1:21

    YHWH (Yeshua's Father) is the ultimate Savior. He appoints other to save in various situations. He appointed Yeshua to save the world from their sins.
     
  9. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely. One is the ultimate source of salvation (Jehovah/YHVH God), the other has been EXALTED to be Savior, (Jesus, Jehovah's servant) Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with His right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

    Hogwash. Re-read Acts 5:31
     
  10. Ronald

    Ronald Exhortations

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    Fine, but why did Jesus refer to the Holy Spirit as "Another Helper" Whom the Father would send? Why didn't He say the Father's Spirit will help you, counsel you, and the whole list of things that He does or the Father will live in you. "Baptized by the Holy Spirit", why not just word it baptized by God or the Father.
    "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on His own; He will speak only what He hears, and He will tell you what is yet to come. "John 16:13
    Jesus always refers to Him as a third person, not as the Father. If there are just two, the Father and the Son, many verses should have been worded differently, no? So the verse above is conflicting, God will not speak on His own, only what He hears?
     
  11. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    Because Jesus was leaving, and the apostles still needed help.

    He did.
    John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, IT shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (Greek gender corrected by me)


    Because God is a being that created humans to look like Himself. We are baptized by His power, His mentality, and thinking.
    No, you are seeing the biased translation of the pronouns. The correct translation is;
    But when It, the spirit of truth comes, it will guide you into all truth. It will not speak on it's own, it will speak only what it hears, and it will tell you what is yet to come.
     
  12. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member Supporter

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  13. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    Ok, so VERY few posts\posters were actually addressing the passages in the OP.
    MOST were just regurgitating the same handful of verses taken out of context, and trying to OFFSET the statements made in the Scriptures I posted in the OP.
    So, let's try again;

    The Scriptures clearly state Jehovah/YHVH alone is God, alone is the Creator of the heavens, and the earth ..... and that Jesus is HIS servant;

    Isaiah 42
    42 Behold, My servant, whom I uphold; My chosen, in whom My soul delighteth: I have put My spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles. 2 He will not cry, nor lift up his voice, nor cause it to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed will he not break, and a dimly burning wick will he not quench: he will bring forth justice in truth. 4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set justice in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his law.

    5 Thus saith God Jehovah, He that created the heavens, and stretched them forth; He that spread abroad the earth and that which cometh out of it; He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I, Jehovah, have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thy hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison-house. 8 I am Jehovah, that is My name; and My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise unto graven images.

    Acts 4
    24 And they, when they heard it, lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, O Lord, Thou that didst make the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that in them is: 25 who by the holy spirit, by the mouth of our father David thy servant, didst say,

    Why did the Gentiles rage,
    And the peoples imagine vain things?
    26 The kings of the earth set themselves in array,
    And the rulers were gathered together,
    Against the Lord, and against His Anointed:

    27 for of a truth in this city against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together, 28 to do whatsoever Thy hand and Thy council foreordained to come to pass. 29 And now, Lord, look upon their threatenings: and grant unto Thy servants to speak thy word with all boldness, 30 while thou stretchest forth Thy hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Thy holy servant Jesus. 31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken wherein they were gathered together; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
     
  14. Ronald

    Ronald Exhortations

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    When someone doesn't agree with a doctrine, there is only one thing to do, distort the scripture so that it conforms to their belief system. The Jehovah Witnesses do that. Scholars throughout the world agree that the New World Translation is not accepted as true and the only translation changed to conform to their belief. I suppose your Bible that refers to God as "it" is similar. You said that the Holy Spirit was the mind and power of God. A person or soul is composed of mind, emotions and will.
    These are the invisible attributes, this is what "made in His image" means. There is one additional attribute, the spirit. It is our spirit that communes with His Spirit. When we are born again, His Spirit lives in us, in our "Holy if Holies", our Temple.
    To refer to God, who lives in us as "it" is an insult to God. If your teacher was a computer, then you could say it teaches me. If it is a college professor, he or she is used because you are referring to a person, so you use the gender pronoun. The Holy Spirit is all that God is, all His attributes. My Counselor. Comforter, Teacher, Guide, is not an it. The infinite ways of God could not exist apart from God, apart from the person HE IS. After all, when someone claims, I AM WHO I AM which also could be translated I WILL BE WHO I WILL BE, you can't refer to Him EVER as "it". Jesus will fill you in later - just make sure you never blaspheme the Holy Spirit, be careful, you wouldn't want to grieve Him.
     
  15. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    Yes, the trinitarians are masters at this deception.

    Yes, this is true.
    No, it's not. The Hebrew word TSELEM Always means "a visual representation". It means God made mankind to look like HIM.
     
  16. Ronald

    Ronald Exhortations

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    No, God is not physical,,God is spirit. Made in our image does not mean a visual image. It is the image of the essence of His Being, Mind, Emotions, Will, every invisible attribute including also the capacity to create, communicate, love, express individual personalities, which are a range of habits and spiritual growth.
    The Mormons believe the Father is a physical man like us,,I guess they interpreted image as a physical likeness as well ...
    Ok, we have bumped up against doctrinal walls separating truth and discernment from distortion. Sorry, I'm not coming over to your side, take care and may God bless you. One more thing, make sure you get baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit!
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2017
  17. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    Of course He is. There is no living thing that isn't physical. The primitive, pagan notion, of "ghosts" ect. is simply a superstition. It isn't real. It isn't Scriptural. The only 2 times Scripture discusses this pagan notion is when Jesus ridiculed the superstition in Luke 4:39, and when Solomon ridiculed the pagan teachings in Eccl 3:18-22.
    Of course He is. But, it is the Scriptural definition of "spirit", a rational mind.
    Not the completely pagan/science fiction notion of some "immaterial being".
     
  18. Ronald

    Ronald Exhortations

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    Wow, didn't know you were that confused about the nature of God. God became flesh and dwelt among us - Jesus. Prior to that, God is Spirit and spirit is not physical. How could God dwell in our temple if He was a physical being? The Father in the Son is an example. Angels are invisible in an invisible realm with God, otherwise we would have seen heaven if mot with the names eye, with a telescope. Angels manifest themselves in human form then ascend into heaven. When we die, our spirit goes to be with Jesus. When we are resurrected, we will have multi-dimensional bodies like Jesus, able to appear physically and disappear as He did. He appeared in the upper room, materialized as if passing through the walls. He also ascended, flew up to heaven into a spiritual realm.
    Jesus made reference to a ghost, reassuring the disciples that he wasn't a ghost, because He had flesh.
    This is sad, your concept of God, almost sounds like Mormonism. Whatever your religion, you should not hide it, it would help others to know right away what school of thought you are coming from and save time.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2017
  19. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    Not one single text states this. God's words became flesh.

    Of course spirit can be physical!! How do you think the believers can worship God in spirit???

    By us being transformed by God's spirit to reflect HIM.

    Exactly! Jesus reflected his God because God filled Jesus with God's words!
    John 12:49-50 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

    Hogwash. This theory is NOT taught in Scripture. Rather, the OPPOSITE is true. Angels are material beings, that are EASILY visible, unless the person's EYES are affected!

    There isn't a SINGLE instance of an angel "manifesting" a body, that's pure science fiction.

    Your theories are not Biblical, they are myth.
     
  20. Ronald

    Ronald Exhortations

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    All the major versions of the Bible say "the Word was God" and "the Word became flesh". Most all Christians know that Jesus is referred to as the Word, the exact expression, illumination and glory of God.
    Prior to the birth of Jesus, He was with the Father. He manifested Himself as a human. Very likely it was He who wrestled with Jacob in Gen. 30:32.
    So you see a spiritual transformation of a blind person into a Christian as just having words of God in him? That's important for sure but not completely what's really happening. I've already explained it to you, but you go ahead, you are not teachable. It's possible were not baptized by the Holy Spirit, who gives us discernment of scripture. You don't think He is a person, so I suppose you've never prayed to receive Him. This is crucial for a Christian to understand. Your spiritual concepts of God and your own spirit is confused! I am afraid this conversation is futile.
     
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