Jesus is Jehovah's "holy servant"

[Dartman]

fullness of the Godhead means the Godhead in its entirety that goes beyond the typical way we use likeness that goes with the Greek form of reflection or essentially ewuilvancy.

Your statement isn't supported in Scripture. You are merely stating your opinion.

But Jesus =equal in power and qualities and authority

Not according to Scripture;
John 5:19-20 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

Jehovah/YHVH God has NEVER been "GIVEN" power and authority, they are His to GIVE.

Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Jesus could do NOTHING, without the Father GIVING him power and authority;

1 Cor 15:24-28 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto HIM that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

 

[gadar perets]

2A. john 14:10 only supports what i'm saying.

John 14:10King James Version (KJV)
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

This does not support your position. You teach Yeshua was omnipotent. If so, he would not need the Father to do the works through him.

But lastly there's something important we shoudl look at "but the Father that dwelleth in me"

You teach the Father became Yeshua. I teach the Father dwelled in Yeshua through His indwelling Holy Spirit.

John 20:28King James Version (KJV)

28

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Thomas did not speak English. Therefore, he did not say "God" with a capital "G". If he spoke Hebrew, he probably used a variation of "elohim" which can be used of men and angels as well as God. Since Yeshua said his Father was the ONLY TRUE ELOHIM in John 17:3, then Yeshua is a lesser elohim. I have no problem calling Yeshua an elohim. I would NEVER refer to him as the only true Elohim because then I would be denying his words.

2B. Now to address your argument about the man raised from the dead it's a good argument but here's the response.

this verse here...

Philippians 2:8

“And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.”

King James Version (KJV)



ConCLusion: JESUS humbled himself (whether you believe he's GOd or not) in his human body, he could have rose everyone from the dead if he wanted to but that wasn't his purpose, his purpose wasn't to display dominance. Additionally, (now reverting back to JESUS being God) God was in heaven as the father while being on Earth as the son so that in itself is an example of omnipresence.

You are assuming He was the Son while on Earth. Scripture does not say that. It says He was IN the Son. Paul said, "To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Messiah in you, the hope of glory:" (Colossians 1:27) Does that make us Messiah? No. Neither does "God in Messiah" make Yeshua God.

 

[Dartman]

I'm not sure the significance of it not being in the Greek text, I'm assuming "he" was in there but "he" in the context of john 3 espeicully based off verse 17 and even in verse 1 where love is mentioned is clearly referencing and discussing the Love of God.

CLEARLY in the context, the love of God is .... He gave His son...... NOT "He gave Himself"!~!

Also if your goal is to convince me of your view... if someone doesn't believe you efficiently addressed a point what you must then do is readdress it or reaffirm it in a different way or else they just assume they are right.

So, please address Isa 42:1-8 from the OP.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Your statement isn't supported in Scripture. You are merely stating your opinion.
Not according to Scripture;
John 5:19-20 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

Jehovah/YHVH God has NEVER been "GIVEN" power and authority, they are His to GIVE.

Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Jesus could do NOTHING, without the Father GIVING him power and authority;

1 Cor 15:24-28 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto HIM that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

A few things here.

1. I would like to hone in on this portion of the text here

he Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.





Explanation: The verse at first makes it sound like JESUS is limited but... then the verse says that what things the Father does the son does also. THere's a reason JESUS says I do the works of the father JESUS isn't being limited in this verse but rather the text is establishing the fact that JESUS isn't going to do anything that GOd wouldn't do. And the next portion where it says "what things he does the son does likewise" emphasizes the fact that JESUS can do whatever the Father can do.




2.Matt 28:18

The fullness of the Godhead was placed inside the son or body in which God resided in that's what this verse is saying. The fullness of the Godhead or hte power and qualities of God was given unto this body.


3. All verse 24-28 is saying is that the Son as the resurrected will have power over everything including death in this text. IT then says that God will have victory over evil and the people will reign with Christ forever. I'm confused on what this verse has to do with anything.

 

[gadar perets]

I'm not sure the significance of it not being in the Greek text, I'm assuming "he" was in there but "he" in the context of john 3 espeicully based off verse 17 and even in verse 1 where love is mentioned is clearly referencing and discussing the Love of God.

The verse should read, "By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers." ESV, ASV, NASB, etc. It takes us back to Yeshua's words in John 15:13;

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.​

 

[gadar perets]

1 Timothy 3:15-16King James Version (KJV)
15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

The reading of the earliest and best manuscripts is not “God” but rather “he who.” Almost all the modern versions have the verse as “the mystery of godliness is great, which was manifest in the flesh,” or some close equivalent.

Bruce Metzger writes:

[“He who”] is supported by the earliest and best uncials…no uncial (in the first hand) earlier than the eighth or ninth century supports theos; all ancient versions presuppose hos or ho [“he who” or “he”]; and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century testifies to the reading theos. The reading theos arose either(a) accidentally, or (b) deliberately, either to supply a substantive for the following six verbs [the six verbs that follow in the verse], or, with less probability, to provide greater dogmatic precision [i.e., to produce a verse that more clearly supports the Trinitarian position].” A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament (United Bible Society, New York, 1975), p. 641.​

 

[Dartman]

“And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.”

Phil 2:8



ConCLusion: JESUS humbled himself (whether you believe he's GOd or not) in his human body, he could have rose everyone from the dead if he wanted to but that wasn't his purpose, his purpose wasn't to display dominance.[/quote]Of course Jesus humbled himself;
Luke 22:27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.

Jesus has never been, and will never be, ANYTHING accept a human body. He WAS a flesh and blood, mortal human body.
He was raised from the dead as a flesh and bones, immortal human body.(Luke 24:39)
EXACTLY LIKE the believers will be resurrected at his return; (1 Cor 15:20-24,49)

Additionally, (now reverting back to JESUS being God) God was in heaven as the father while being on Earth as the son so that in itself is an example of omnipresence.

No, this is an example of a ridiculous theory that is NEVER .... EVER .... preached in Scripture;
2 Cor 11:3-4 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached ....

I will stick with the "Jesus" actually PREACHED by the apostles!

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

This does not support your position. You teach Yeshua was omnipotent. If so, he would not need the Father to do the works through him.


You teach the Father became Yeshua. I teach the Father dwelled in Yeshua through His indwelling Holy Spirit.


Thomas did not speak English. Therefore, he did not say "God" with a capital "G". If he spoke Hebrew, he probably used a variation of "elohim" which can be used of men and angels as well as God. Since Yeshua said his Father was the ONLY TRUE ELOHIM in John 17:3, then Yeshua is a lesser elohim. I have no problem calling Yeshua an elohim. I would NEVER refer to him as the only true Elohim because then I would be denying his words.


You are assuming He was the Son while on Earth. Scripture does not say that. It says He was IN the Son. Paul said, "To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Messiah in you, the hope of glory:" (Colossians 1:27) Does that make us Messiah? No. Neither does "God in Messiah" make Yeshua God.

1. The father inside the body of CHrist does the works the 100% human flesh doesn't. JESUS is just informing them to look past the flesh and realize the Father or God in the flesh that does the works. Thomas later realizes this and declares that he is God and he is Lord.


2.Geesh you beat around the bush a lot here...safe to say you have no scripture going against what Thomas said here... every translation has God here as well since you guys love translations so much smh.


3. Good point which is why Paul clarifies this for us when he says the Fullness of the Godhead was in JESUS to let us know JESUS wasn't just another man like us. He had more then just the HOly Spirit he had the fullness of the Godhead.

which is why we have verses like this to clarify this for us also.. you never just go off one verse

Isaiah 9:6King James Version (KJV)
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.



A. JESUS is the creator but we aren't creators John 1:3-10 Col 1:15-17

B. JESUS is the almighty but we aren't almighty rev 1:8


C. JESUS must have everyone bow to him but we don't Philipin 2:10-11


D. JESUS is before all things but we are not before all things Col 1:17, john 1:1-3


E. JESUS is the door but we are not the door John 10:7-9



You get my point right? There are many verses that make it clear that JESUS isn't' the equivalent of us...so when you read the verses that say the Father in JESUS...it's not the same as when we are called the Father of JESUS.


For example in the bible the judges in the OT were known as the I "sons of God" and so were certain people of God must we then assume they are the same as JESUS who is described as the Son of God?

OF course not becuase we can look at other scriptures and cross reference them.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

The reading of the earliest and best manuscripts is not “God” but rather “he who.” Almost all the modern versions have the verse as “the mystery of godliness is great, which was manifest in the flesh,” or some close equivalent.

Bruce Metzger writes:

[“He who”] is supported by the earliest and best uncials…no uncial (in the first hand) earlier than the eighth or ninth century supports theos; all ancient versions presuppose hos or ho [“he who” or “he”]; and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century testifies to the reading theos. The reading theos arose either(a) accidentally, or (b) deliberately, either to supply a substantive for the following six verbs [the six verbs that follow in the verse], or, with less probability, to provide greater dogmatic precision [i.e., to produce a verse that more clearly supports the Trinitarian position].” A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament (United Bible Society, New York, 1975), p. 641.​

I said I agree with this that "he" is the word utilized

Also What I find ironic though is that the new catholic encyclopedia admits the formulation of the trinity wasn't established until the 4th century...yet it's still taken so seriously.

 

[Dartman]

A few things here.

1. I would like to hone in on this portion of the text here

he Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.





Explanation: The verse at first makes it sound like JESUS is limited but... then the verse says that what things the Father does the son does also. THere's a reason JESUS says I do the works of the father JESUS isn't being limited in this verse but rather the text is establishing the fact that JESUS isn't going to do anything that GOd wouldn't do. And the next portion where it says "what things he does the son does likewise" emphasizes the fact that JESUS can do whatever the Father can do.

Why are you twisting Jesus' own words?
He said PLAINLY "The son CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF"!!

Your attempts to deny this utterly fail.

2.Matt 28:18

The fullness of the Godhead was placed inside the son or body in which God resided in that's what this verse is saying. The fullness of the Godhead or hte power and qualities of God was given unto this body.

1) That is NOT what this text says.
2) That is NOT what ANY Scripture says!
3) That is NOT how ANY apostle explains Jesus to ANY audience ... (aka PREACHED).
4) Jesus DOES say, all authority has been GIVEN me...
5) Your attempt to make a distinction between "this body" and "me" is ludicrous.

Your attempts to deny this passage utterly fail.

It states plainly;
1) God is the exception to "all things" being subject to Jesus.
2) Jesus is SUBJECT to his God.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

“And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.”

Phil 2:8



ConCLusion: JESUS humbled himself (whether you believe he's GOd or not) in his human body, he could have rose everyone from the dead if he wanted to but that wasn't his purpose, his purpose wasn't to display dominance.

Of course Jesus humbled himself;
Luke 22:27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.

Jesus has never been, and will never be, ANYTHING accept a human body. He WAS a flesh and blood, mortal human body.
He was raised from the dead as a flesh and bones, immortal human body.(Luke 24:39)
EXACTLY LIKE the believers will be resurrected at his return; (1 Cor 15:20-24,49)


No, this is an example of a ridiculous theory that is NEVER .... EVER .... preached in Scripture;
2 Cor 11:3-4 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached ....

I will stick with the "Jesus" actually PREACHED by the apostles![/QUOTE]


Hey we agree on something! Yes I agree that the life of JESUS reflects the life a saved individual will experience such as being resurrected in a new immortal body.

I disagree with it being a human body though...scripture never indicates that we will have human flesh.


And look if you want to stick with the JESUS you believed was preached by the apostles suit yourself it's your choice.

 

[gadar perets]

1. The father inside the body of CHrist does the works the 100% human flesh doesn't. JESUS is just informing them to look past the flesh and realize the Father or God in the flesh that does the works. Thomas later realizes this and declares that he is God and he is Lord.


2.Geesh you beat around the bush a lot here...safe to say you have no scripture going against what Thomas said here... every translation has God here as well since you guys love translations so much smh.


3. Good point which is why Paul clarifies this for us when he says the Fullness of the Godhead was in JESUS to let us know JESUS wasn't just another man like us. He had more then just the HOly Spirit he had the fullness of the Godhead.

which is why we have verses like this to clarify this for us also.. you never just go off one verse

Isaiah 9:6King James Version (KJV)
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.



A. JESUS is the creator but we aren't creators John 1:3-10 Col 1:15-17

B. JESUS is the almighty but we aren't almighty rev 1:8


C. JESUS must have everyone bow to him but we don't Philipin 2:10-11


D. JESUS is before all things but we are not before all things Col 1:17, john 1:1-3


E. JESUS is the door but we are not the door John 10:7-9



You get my point right? There are many verses that make it clear that JESUS isn't' the equivalent of us...so when you read the verses that say the Father in JESUS...it's not the same as when we are called the Father of JESUS.


For example in the bible the judges in the OT were known as the I "sons of God" and so were certain people of God must we then assume they are the same as JESUS who is described as the Son of God?

OF course not becuase we can look at other scriptures and cross reference them.

I think it is time to call it a night. Not only are you Scripture bombing, but you are making all sorts of grammatical mistakes in your effort to refute as fast as possible rather than considering what we write.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Why are you twisting Jesus' own words?
He said PLAINLY "The son CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF"!!

Your attempts to deny this utterly fail.

1) That is NOT what this text says.
2) That is NOT what ANY Scripture says!
3) That is NOT how ANY apostle explains Jesus to ANY audience ... (aka PREACHED).
Your attempts to deny this passage utterly fail.

He can do nothing of himself the God in him is doing the works of the Father.

If you don't agree with me it's fine, i'm just telling you what the scripture says.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

I think it is time to call it a night. Not only are you Scripture bombing, but you are making all sorts of grammatical mistakes in your effort to refute as fast as possible rather than considering what we write.

Well i'm getting 3 replies every minute so I have no choice but to reply fast.

And don't worry I am reading the entirety of your arguments... why do you think I had such long responses until you both started addressing me at the same time?

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

ALso I agree we might as well call it a night...i'm getting bored and as usual conversations about the GOdhead and who JESUS is never results in anyone being convinced of the opposing side.


IF you have ever witnessed other threads on this same topic they end the same way that's why I was shocked this topic was even here but took a shot at it.

 

[Ronald]

I will not take the time to address your Scripture bombing. If you would like to discuss one or two verses at a time, no problem.

It will take an explosion. I Am loves you, peace.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

I think it is time to call it a night. Not only are you Scripture bombing, but you are making all sorts of grammatical mistakes in your effort to refute as fast as possible rather than considering what we write.

Lastly though if you can't handle scripture just say so... I didn't bomb you with scriptures I posted 5 scriptures

 

[Dartman]

Of course Jesus humbled himself;
Luke 22:27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.

Jesus has never been, and will never be, ANYTHING accept a human body. He WAS a flesh and blood, mortal human body.
He was raised from the dead as a flesh and bones, immortal human body.(Luke 24:39)
EXACTLY LIKE the believers will be resurrected at his return; (1 Cor 15:20-24,49)


No, this is an example of a ridiculous theory that is NEVER .... EVER .... preached in Scripture;
2 Cor 11:3-4 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached ....

I will stick with the "Jesus" actually PREACHED by the apostles!

Hey we agree on something! Yes I agree that the life of JESUS reflects the life a saved individual will experience such as being resurrected in a new immortal body.

I disagree with it being a human body though...scripture never indicates that we will have human flesh.

??? You THINK the righteous won't be human????
Where do you get THAT???
You KNOW Jesus is still a "Man", right?
Acts 17:30-31 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised him from the dead.

1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

And look if you want to stick with the JESUS you believed was preached by the apostles suit yourself it's your choice.

Of course I want to stick with the Jesus actually preached by the apostles!
Are you disagreeing with Paul??

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

??? You THINK the righteous won't be human????
Where do you get THAT???
You KNOW Jesus is still a "Man", right?
Acts 17:30-31 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised him from the dead.

1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Of course I want to stick with the Jesus actually preached by the apostles!
Are you disagreeing with Paul??

The Bible says we take off corruptible and put on incorruptible... flesh is corrupted why would we still have it. Also there's not single verse that says we keep flesh and I mean we as in humans. The verses you bring up just refence Jesus. Also Jesus is the mediator even after ressurextion our God still has that connection he walked as a man but he's not a man anymore he simply carries the title as son now because he was manifested as the son on earth. Logically Paul would refence him as the man or savior just like he does as father, God, master... they are all just titles that represent what he has done is or has manifested as. The lion of Judah, the king of isrral etc

 

[Dartman]

It will take an explosion. I Am loves you, peace.

There is no "I am (ego emi)", that's merely a preposition phrase. .... there is "The Being".. (O On) ....
LXX Ex 3:14 And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am (ego emi) THE BEING (O ON); and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING (O ON) has sent me to you.