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Jesus is fully God & fully man

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Gunny, Oct 11, 2002.

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  1. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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    Because it is a doctrine that was imported into Christianity from Pagenism! It's totally unscriptural!  It's another invention of men! It contradicts the inspired word of God!  Next question !

    Show us the scriptures that line up with this man made quote?  Show us the scripture that says that God put on a human body?  The scripture says that God is spirit!  The scripture also says that no one has ever seen God ! 

    I'll post one for you:

    1 Timothy 2:5, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;"

    Scripture does not contradict scripture........
     
  2. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

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    Is the Trinity Really an Ancient Pagan Belief?



    Many anti-Trinitarian groups, such as Jehovah's Witnesses, The Way International, Oneness Pentecostalism, Christadelphians, and various Armstrongite groups reject the Trinity as pagan in origin. They point to various, and alleged, similarities between the Christian Trinity and the pagan trinities of other cultures. For example, under the heading "Historical Development of the Trinity Doctrine"the Watchtower magazine states:


    "History confirms that the Trinity was borrowed from pagans and existed centuries before Jesus came to the earth. Long after his death, it was promoted by those who had been influenced by pagan philosophies and who had apostatized from the true worship of God as taught by Jesus and the apostles." (Watchtower, June 1, p. 18).
    Similarly, the Watchtower's Should you Believe in the Trinity magazine, under the heading "What Influenced It" [i.e. the Trinity], states the following:


    "That is why, in the Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethics, James hastings wrote: "In Indian religion, e.g., we meet with the trinitarian group of Brahma, Siva, and Vishnu; and in Egyptian religion with the trinitarian group of Osiris, Isis, and Horus..." (p. 11).
    Page 12 of the same publication then goes on to argue that the Church adopted these beliefs into their theology and hence apostatised from the truth. Is this really sound reasoning? Is there any truth in these assertions?

    The above mentioned quote from the Watchtower's Trinity booklet mentions the triad of "Brahma, Siva, and Vishnu" and seeks to imply that the Christian Trinity is similar to it. Here are the actual facts:

    Brahma - One member of the triad Hindu God is actually a 5 headed God within a 3 headed trinity! Anti-Trinitarians often falsely misrepresent the Trinity as a 3 headed monster, but to add another 2 heads on shows how far they are willing to go! Brahma is also often depicted as having four arms!

    Siva - A God of sensuality (hardly comparable to the Christian God!).

    Vishnu - Often depicted as a being with four hands!

    What about the other example of "Horus, Osiris, and Isis"? Can this be cited as evidence of having a similarity with the Christian Trinity? No it cannot:

    Isis - a female goddess.

    Osiris - husband of Isis.

    Horus - son of Isis and Osiris.

    Also, this triad was not considered one God (as in Christianity) but rather three separate gods.

    One of the major problems with the reasoning of anti-Trinitarian groups, such as the Watchtower Society, is that by claiming that some vague similarities exist between the Trinity and some aspects of pagan triads, they actually condemn much of what they believe themselves as being "pagan" as well. For example, if the Watchtower were to use the same criteria that they use to judge the Trinity as pagan, they would also have to condemn the resurrection of Jesus, baptism, the concept of the Logos, the flood account in Genesis, the Jewish temple and tabernacle, the doctrine of Satan, the Lord's supper, the creation account, etc., as many pagan cultures spoke of these things before the Jews recognized them and before coming of Christianity. Does this mean that these things are pagan as well? Of course not. There are significant differences between the Biblical concepts and the pagan one's. The same is true of the Trinity. But according to the reasoning that Jehovah's Witnesses use all the above mentioned beliefs should be rejected as pagan because they reject the Trinity on the same grounds. This is a clear case of double standards as far as the Watchtower's reasoning is concerned. The point is, that just because there are some vague similarities with pagan predecessors there are many significant differences as well. This is exactly the same with the Trinity.

    Berean Apologetic Ministries
     
  3. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

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    Introduction to Christadelphianism


    Christadelphianism is relatively new religious system. It claims, like many other non-Christian cults, to be the authentic Christian Church with authentic Christian doctrines. However, it denies the Trinity doctrine as well as the deity of Christ and the Holy Spirit. In addition, it states that the Devil is not a real person but is, instead, our natural tendency to sin. It also says that Jesus was a created being who had a fallen nature who himself needed to be redeemed. I say these things upfront as an introduction to Christadelphianism because we need to understand what the heart of this group is. Again, it is not Christian.
    There are, however, disagreements within the camp of Christadelphianism. Several Christadelphians have pointed out to me that there are differences of opinion within their sect regarding the fallen nature of Christ. Nevertheless, they all deny the deity of Christ and this is enough to put them outside the camp of Christianity. A Jesus who is not divine, cannot save anyone -- especially one that needs to be redeemed himself.
    In my opinion, Christadelphianism is a dangerous cult because it brings people to eternal damnation by teaching a false God and false gospel. It deviates from the central doctrines of the Christian faith sufficiently to make them non-Christian.
    I would like to add that many years ago I had the opportunity to spend five months attending a Christadelphian Church during their midweek Bible studies. The people there were very warm and friendly. They freely allowed me to present the "opposing view" to their Bible study group on a regular basis. I was impressed by this. They also were very knowledgeable about scripture and listened intently to what I had to say. I found them to be polite and well studied and I enjoyed my time with them. However, they still denied the essential doctrines of the faith even when I "stumped" them in doctrinal matters. Though I remember them with fondness, I am saddened to know that they have chosen to deny the true and living God.



    CHRISTIAN APOLOGETICS AND RESEARCH MINISTRY
     
  4. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

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    What do the
    Christadelphians Teach?

    Though they acknowledge many truths found in the Bible, they deny many others.

    They believe the Bible is the infallible and inerrant word of God. (The Christadelphians: What They Believe and Preach, p. 82)
    They teach there is only one God. (Isaiah 43-45)
    They teach that Jesus had a sin nature (What They Believe, p. 74)
    They teach that Jesus needed to save himself, before he could save us. (Christadelphian Answers, p. 24)
    They teach that Jesus will return and set up his kingdom on earth. (What They Believe , p. 268)
    They believe that there has been an apostasy and that Christianity is a false religious system. (A tract titled “Christendom Astray Since the Apostolic Age, Detroit Christadelphian Book Supply)
    They believe annihilation of the wicked. (What They Believe, p. 187).
    They believe that baptism is necessary for salvation. (What They Believe , p. 71,72, 207-210)
    They believe that it is possible to lose one’s salvation. (What They Believe , p. 212)
    They deny the doctrine of the Trinity. (What They Believe, p. 84-87)
    They deny that Jesus is God in flesh. (Answers, p. 22)
    They deny that Jesus existed prior to his incarnation. (What They Believe , p. 85,86)
    They deny the personhood and deity of the Holy Spirit. (What They Believe , p. 115)
    They deny the substitutionary atonement of Christ. (Answers, p. 25; What They Believe, p. 71)
    They deny salvation by grace through faith alone. (What they Believe, p. 204)
    They deny immortality of the soul. (What They Believe , p. 17).
    They deny that a person exists after death. (What They Believe, p. 17)
    They deny the existence of hell and eternal punishment. (What They Believe, p. 188-189)
    They deny the existence of the fallen angel Lucifer as the devil. (Answers, p. 100)
    As you can see, the Christadelphians deny some essential doctrines of Christianity; namely, the deity of Jesus and salvation by grace.
    Like so many other cult groups that claim to be the restored truth, they have their own interpretations of the Bible that deviate greatly from orthodox Christianity.


    CHRISTIAN APOLOGETICS AND RESEARCH MINISTRY
     
  5. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

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    Christadelphian History

    Christadelphianism is a religious movement begun by Dr. John Thomas who was born in London England on April 12, 1805. In 1832 he immigrated to the United States. On the way to New York, his ship encountered several terrible storms that threatened shipwreck and death. Dr. Thomas promised God that if he were delivered, he would devote his life to the study of religion. He made it to America and kept his promise.
    Upon arrival, he joined the Campbellite group also known as the Disciples. He was baptized and began to study. He studied greatly and soon found himself at odds with the Campbellites and left. Many from the Campbellite group followed him. This is the beginning of the Christadelphian movement, though it wasn’t called that yet.
    In 1834 Dr. Thomas started a magazine called "The Apostolic Advocate." This is where he really began to disseminate his teachings. He was greatly interested in prophecy and devoted much effort to understanding biblical eschatology.
    In 1839 Thomas moved to Illinois and in 1842 he became editor of a magazine called "The Investigator." Five years later, he started another magazine called "The Herald of the Future Age." By this time he was living in Virginia.
    In 1848, near the time when Christadelphianism was founded in America, he returned to England to speak on his brand of religion and found the soil there fertile. To this day, England has the largest number of Christadelphians. While in England, he wrote the book called "Elpis Israel" which means "Hope of Israel." It is a thorough work of his beliefs discussion creation, God’s law, sin, death, immortality, religion, the coming Kingdom, and a host of other subjects. He then returned to America.
    The Christadelphians do not believe in participating in war. So, when the Civil War broke out, they refused to go. In order to be recognized as a religious group that did not believe in fighting, they needed a name. Dr. Thomas gave them the name "Christadelphian" which, in Greek means "Brethren of Christ."
    In 1862, Thomas returned to England again and found that his book "Elpis Israel" had helped to bring about congregations that followed his theology. He lectured extensively and helped to anchor Christadelphianism in England. He returned to America again.
    Thomas visited England one more time in 1869 after writing the book "Eureka."
    On March 5, 1871 Dr. Thomas died in New York. He is buried in Brooklyn.

    Thomas was a tireless worker who sought to study and discover God’s true meaning and doctrine of the Bible. Unfortunately, despising the counsel and wisdom of those more learned than himself, he sought to single-handedly "rediscover" the true gospel which, in his opinion, had been lost from the earth. Like so many others in the 19th century, he began a religious movement that really is a development of his personal beliefs. Therefore, the Christadelphian religion, like Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Christian Science, is merely another erring religious system begun by a single person who claimed to know more than anyone else about the Bible.


    CHRISTIAN APOLOGETICS AND RESEARCH MINISTRY
     
  6. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

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    IS THE TRINITY PAGAN ? Let Us Reason Ministries

    Many have adopted this accusation as the main complaint of hindrance to believing in evangelical Christianity. There is no other concept of God attacked more than this subject. There are many things about God that are not understood immediately, I've heard the same for predestination. I’ve heard it said "people don’t join the Evangelical church because they can’t understand the teaching on the Trinity". This is just one of many straw man arguments. People do not come to Christ because they don’t understand the numerous doctrines. They refuse to because they cannot admit they are sinful and are in need of help outside themselves. Turning over their control to God is an act of faith. Instead faith is substituted with the carnal mind wanting to understand something from strictly a human perspective. If I can't fully understand it I will not believe, but this is only an excuse. As Jesus stated in Jn.3:19-21" Men love darkness rather than light, they don't come to Christ because their deeds will be exposed". Both Jews and Muslim's emphatically deny that God has a Son, if one is going to find a doctrine offensive to them, I think this would be it. No one preaches the Trinity in salvation but what is preached is that Jesus is the Son of God, he is Lord. We learn about the nature of God and other basic doctrines as we grow in the faith, not before. The simple reason is we need the Holy Spirit to be our teacher in the deeper things of God.

    Is the Trinity pagan? The pagan religions had what we call trinities however on closer examination they are not the same in concept or substance. In the same way we would not agree with all the other religions that have a strict monotheistic view of God to be embraced as the same God of the Bible. (Islam, Bahai) The pagan concept was encapsulated with a Father, Mother, giving birth to a Son. They were three major Gods with many minor god's as well. Their trinity was comprised of three Gods not one. The Greek triad of Zeus, Athena, and Apollo, the Hindu triad of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva the Egyptian triad of Isis, Horus, and Sub bear no resemblance to the Biblical Trinity. They were all separate not united as the one God and almost unanimously had a mother involved as in a heavenly family. This was really tritheism, which has more in common with Mormonism than a triune God. Anti Trinitarians make usage of the statues with three heads and saying that is our pagan God. If one is going to discount the Trinity because of some similarities in name only and not in substance. Then maybe they should be looking at their own pagan similarities. One can still be in idolatry, if their one God is not the God of the Bible.

    Anti Trinitarians make usage of the statues with three heads and saying that is our pagan God. If one is going to discount the Trinity because of some similarities in name only and not in substance. Then maybe they should be looking at their own pagan similarities. One can still be in idolatry, if their one God is not the God of the Bible.

    Where did the pagans get a concept of three ? Why not two or four ? Where did they get the idea of a God in heaven anyway? What about their belief in a virgin and a son, where did that originate from ? Rom.1:20-25 tells us that man from the beginning knew God."... 'and their foolish hearts were darkened" vs.25 "they exchanged the truth for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the creator." When mankind fell into darkness of sin, they still retained some elements of the truth but distorted its meaning and it became lost.

    As Walter Martin wrote "In order to find out if the doctrine of the Trinity is true, we do not look to see if it resembles paganism, but to the bible, to see if God teaches it in his word. Pagans also believe in the concept of God. does this mean that God must not be true? Pagans sleep. Does that mean sleeping is wrong ? We must not dismiss an idea merely because it is held in common with those whom we may not approve." (the New Cults p.49) Lets not try to find all kinds of perversions from the outside that have nothing to do with the Biblical record, lets go to the Scripture to prove our major points.

    Alexander Hislop, in his book, "the two Babylon's", traces the history of the practices and traditions of the Roman Catholic church. He writes on pg. 18, "All these forms have existed from ancient times, while overcome with idolatry, the recognition of the Trinity was universal, proving how deep rooted in the human race was the doctrine on the subject , which comes out so distinctly in Genesis" Robert watts in New Apologetic says "The Pagan triads are "residuary fragments of their lost knowledge of God, not different stages in a process of evolution. But evidence of a moral and spiritual degradation" (Augustus H. Strongs systematic Theology p.352)

    While their are Pagan Trinities which can be traced back to Babylon, instead of supporting anti Trinitarian views such as the Watchtower literature promotes, it is evidence for the tri-une God. Lets not try to find all kinds of perversions from the outside that have nothing to do with the Biblical record, lets go to the Scripture to prove our major points

    Hislop writes that many pagan religions held to one infinite God the creator. Strict monotheism is found in Islam and a few other religions. Are we now to accept their view because God is called one (singular).

    If we are to reject the concept of the triune God, a unified one, because of the pagan distortions, then we must reject much more than this. The pagan cultures also had a virgin birth and some even had a resurrection, Tammuz died and raised 40 days later. The pagan religions had a priesthood and sacrifices, this too became distorted with human sacrifices for Gods blessings. Some Pagans believed that certain gods became men. They had Biblical symbology such as a dove, the lamb, altars, their are many religions that have distortions of the Bibles account of the flood. Are we now to reject Genesis because of their misrepresentations. They also practiced tongues- ecstatic babble. All of these are counterfeits and distortions of truth, yet we are told since they have a counterfeit Trinity, we are to reject the Biblical Trinity on the same grounds. If you are going to do that, then you must reject all of it on the basis of it being found in some form in ancient paganism. You then annihilate the doctrine of Christ as the God/man, virgin birth, his sacrifice etc. All these are the proof of what Paul explained of what happened in history in Romans one, that mankind had a true knowledge but refused to worship him and sank into idolatry.

    The God of the Bible is unique. He is tri-une, which is neither polytheistic nor is it tri-theistic. God is one in nature and is composed of three distinct eternal persons. They are one in substance with a difference in position. What makes all three the one God is that they share the same nature. This is the simple description of the God of the Bible. There is one choice from the Bibles revelation, if one denies the tri-une God, they are either left with atheism or polytheism.
     
  7. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

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  8. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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    Sarge, So much for your extremely long posts that are contrary to scripture!  I would suggest that you take your time and ponder the scriptures that I posted below and when you do come back and tell me where do you see the trinity in any of these passages? God sent Jesus.  God sent His only begotten Son in the world, by the power of the Holy Spirit, just like all the others He sent. Therefore, Jesus Himself cannot be "Very God" or co-equal with His Father from eternity. Read the what follows in the Gospel of John:

    John 3:34-35, "For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand." John 5:17-24, "But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." John 5:36-38, "But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not." John 7:16, "Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." John 7:28-29, "Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not. But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me." John 8:26-30, "I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. They understood not that he spake to them of the Father. Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. As he spake these words, many believed on him." John 8:40, "But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham." John 8:42, "Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me." John 10:17-18, "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." John 11:41-42, "Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me." John 14:1, "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me." John 14:10, "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works." John 14:20, "At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you." John 14:28, "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I." John 17:1-4, "These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do." John 17:18, "As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world." John 17:21-23, "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." John 20:17, "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

    So tell me Sarge, where in these passages does it say that Jesus is fully God and fully man?
     
  9. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

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    The Christadelphians, John 1:1, and
    "The Word Became Flesh"

    The Bible bears witness of Jesus (John 5:39). He is our Savior, our King, and Lord. But not all who call themselves Christian agree on who Jesus is. Some say He is God in flesh, others that He is an angel who became a man, and still others teach He only came into existence at His birth. Such is the position of the Christadelphians. To them, Jesus did not exist as God. To them, He was just a man who first existed at His birth.
    If you are a Christian who knows His Bible, then you will immediately recognize the error of the Christadelphians. The Bible says that whoever denies that Jesus has come in the flesh is of the spirit of the Antichrist (1 John 4:1-2). Of course, the Christadelphians agree that Jesus came in the flesh. But they will not agree that He is God in flesh.
    John wrote 1 John and the gospel of John. In John 1:1,14, he said, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. . .and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. . ." Obviously, from the context, John is not simply saying that you must believe that Jesus lived, you must believe that He is the Word made flesh. And since he already said that the Word was God, Jesus, therefore, is God in flesh.
    This seems simple enough. But it isn’t for the Christadelphians. In their pamphlet "Who is Jesus Christ?", the "Word" is discussed. On page 12, in reference to John 1:1, the pamphlet says, "The Greek term translated 'word' is logos. It signifies the outward form of inward thought or reason, or the spoken word as illustrative of thought, wisdom and doctrine. The Bible teaching is that in the very beginning, God’s purpose, wisdom or revelation was proclaimed through His Word. This Word was 'with God' in that it emanated from Him; it 'was God' in that it represented Him to mankind. . ."
    The problem with their reasoning is not that their definition, in itself, is incorrect. For it can be said that the Word was indeed the wisdom and emanation from God. But that is not all it is saying. It is saying that the Word WAS God. Jesus IS the Word. He isn’t simply a manifestation of some divine attribute or quality. Also, what about the context?
    In John 1:2-3 it says, "He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made" (NIV). First, the word is referred to as masculine. Wisdom in Proverbs 8:1-2 is personified as feminine. There is a difference. Second, the Word is who created all things (See also Colosians 1:16-17). Of course, it is naturally understood that this does not include God Himself. But all that is made, has been made by the Word that became flesh. Third, the Word is revered to as a person, not a quality which the Christadelphians have imposed into the text.
    In reference to Acts 1:14, "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld His glory, glory of the only begotten full of grace and truth," the pamphlet states on page 13, "When did the begettal take place? When the Holy Spirit came upon Mary. By that means, the Declaration of Divine wisdom found its substance and reality in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ." It is interesting to note that they call wisdom ‘divine.’ They are saying that divine wisdom became flesh. Is not Jesus, then, divine since He is the incarnation of divinity? They would disagree. But that is what they are saying, though they don’t realize it.
    If Jesus is not God in flesh, then why is He worshiped (Matt. 2:2, 11, 14:33, John 9:35-38, Heb. 1:6)? This is especially important since Jesus said that you are to worship God (the Father) only (Matt. 4:10). Yet, Jesus receives worship and never rebukes anyone for it.
    If Jesus is not God, then why is He called God by Thomas who said to Jesus in John 20:28, "My Lord and my God." Jesus didn’t correct him for his error.
    Once while in a Christadelphian church (known as a Hall; their body of believers who are Christadelphians are called an ecclesia), a woman challenged me to find any place in the Bible where Jesus is called God. When I showed her the verse, she was silent. No one there has answered it yet. The verse is Hebrews 1:8. Here is the context: Heb. 1:5-8 . . .

    For to which of the angels did He [God] ever say: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You"? And again: "I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son"? 6But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him." 7And of the angels He says: "Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire." 8But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom."

    Jesus is called God by God. If He is not God, then why does the Father call Him God? Is the Father wrong? Is the writer of Hebrews wrong. Or, are the Christadelphians wrong?
    While at another ecclesia, I asked some Christadelphians about Jesus being worshiped. They told me they thought He was worthy of worship. They said they never worshiped Jesus. I asked them why not. They didn’t have an answer.
    In the Christadelphian pamphlet, "Who is Jesus Christ?" none of the verses about Jesus being worshiped or called God were addressed. I think this is revealing. It is easy to produce clever arguments against various proof texts of Jesus deity (Col. 1:16-17; John 8:58, etc.), as the pamphlet does. But when it doesn’t address the most basic of verses that deal with Jesus’ being worshiped and called God, I must conclude that they have not done all the research needed and that their conclusions are in error. And they are in error.
    Remember, faith is only as good as who it is placed in. The Christadelphian Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible. The Christadelphian Jesus isn't God. The Jesus of the Bible is.


    CHRISTIAN APOLOGETICS AND RESEARCH MINISTRY
     
  10. * kittie *

    * kittie * Contributor

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    yes. Jesus is fully God.
    yes. I believe in the Trinity.
    no, the human mind cannot comprehend this. just because something is impossible on earth, it doesn't mean that the it is impossible for God. don't box God in with human concepts.
    he was fully man. fully God. at the same time.
    the wisdom of man is nothing compared to the "foolishness" of God. i'm not saying that God is foolish...but you kinda get the point.
    math was made by man. just because man thinks something...it doesn't mean God is.
    just like OldShepherd said. then what's the problem?
     
  11. Gunny

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    Amen, and Amen!
     
  12. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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    Well, Sarge, the articles you posted are worthless up against the word of God.  You might as well be turning your nose up to Gods word that I posted!  It's clear that your articles are more valuable to you than the scriptures I posted for you to proove and explain your false trinity hypothesis!  You don't even have the ability to prove it or explain it from scripture!  All you have are your so called articles written by the speculations and conjectures of men!  I showed you scripture and you still can't explain to me or anyone else that the trinity is biblically sound teaching from scripture!  All you can come with is to point your finger and falsely accuse those who refute it by labeling them as heritics and non-believers and anti-christs!  Well, I think your accusations and your fancy artilces are refuted with scripture itself! If that is all you have to depend on are your articles, your the one who is building your house on sinking sand!      
     
  13. Gunny

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    Well Franklin, the "fancy" articles utilize God's Word to explain Orthodox Christian Doctrine.

    The "fancy" articles" utilize God's Word to describe Christian cults such as the Christadelphians.

    Franklin, you are very well versed with all the Christadelphian doctrine for everything you state about the nature of God, Jesus, the trinity and hell are the exactly the same as what the Christadelphians teach.

    Christadephianism is another Christian cult started/founded by a man.
     
  14. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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    I think not sarge!  Your articles contradict the word of God (inspiration) but they do support your traditional Orthodox so-called Christian doctrines.  There is a big difference ! 

    I just love all your un-scriptural buzz words, Chritadelphians and all the other "ians" and "isims" and "ists".... but they just don't stand up to the authority of scripture sarge!  So far you haven't even commented about the scriptures I posted, your continued sidestepping is beginning to become very obvious that you just can't deal with the truth of scripture!  

    And you are very well versed in believeing all the false teachings of men that is contrary to scripture!  Is this a new term you just learned from your false teachers?  Christadelphians?  Is that located near Philidelphia, PA by any chance?  Your not getting your beliefs from scripture sarge!  If you did, you would not be so ademently defending it! 



     
     
  15. Gunny

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    Franklin, it's allright to defend your Christadelphian Cult. You know what it is for every doctrinal stance that you post aligns with this particular Christian Cult.
     
  16. franklin

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    You need to get a grip sarge with all your labeling of those who don't hold to the same beliefs of something such as the doctrine of the trinity that is nowhere to be found in scripture!  IF you think your being successful at trying to lay a guilt trip on me than you are sadly mistaken!  It's not working! If it's a cult then why do you have "Christian" written before the word cult?  Make up your mind!  You can't even prove your theory of 3 gods in one with any of the passages I posted because if you honestly did give it shot, you'd have to admit your theory is dead wrong and unscriptural!  You would have to lie to yourself that those scriptures I posted explain the trinity just like most teachers of the theory explain or don't explain or use the usual excuse that it's unexplainable! I'll say it again because I was once a defender of it just like you until a very courageous brother in Christ had the guts to share how false the trinity was.  I fought against him about for months until God's word and spirit revealed it to me.  The doctrine of the Trinity is not scriptural. The idea of 3 co-equal, co-eternal Gods is never to be found anywhere in the scripture. Like the doctrine of the immortality of the soul, it is provedly derived from the philosophy of the pagan Greeks, particularly Plato - the foolish "wisdom of the world" which the Apostles and early believers repudiated and combated, but which the apostate and worldly church later succumbed to. Be sure your beliefs are derived from and founded upon God's Word, not man's speculations.

    Just a few more scriptures for you to ponder sarge....  maybe you can tell me where the trinity is in them?  Are you going to sidestep these also? 

    "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone. Mk 10:18

    And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"--which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Mk 15:34

    Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. Jn 8:42

    Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. John 8:54

    Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. John 17:3

    Be sure your beliefs are derived from and founded upon God's Word, not man's speculations. I won't burden you with more scripture sarge, just ponder these for a while and let them speak on it's own and then you tell me where the trinity is in them.




     
     
  17. Gunny

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    Yes, indeed man's speculations. Men such as John Thomas, founder of the Christadelphian movement.





    Christadelphian History

    Christadelphianism is a religious movement begun by Dr. John Thomas who was born in London England on April 12, 1805. In 1832 he immigrated to the United States. On the way to New York, his ship encountered several terrible storms that threatened shipwreck and death. Dr. Thomas promised God that if he were delivered, he would devote his life to the study of religion. He made it to America and kept his promise.
    Upon arrival, he joined the Campbellite group also known as the Disciples. He was baptized and began to study. He studied greatly and soon found himself at odds with the Campbellites and left. Many from the Campbellite group followed him. This is the beginning of the Christadelphian movement, though it wasn’t called that yet.
    In 1834 Dr. Thomas started a magazine called "The Apostolic Advocate." This is where he really began to disseminate his teachings. He was greatly interested in prophecy and devoted much effort to understanding biblical eschatology.
    In 1839 Thomas moved to Illinois and in 1842 he became editor of a magazine called "The Investigator." Five years later, he started another magazine called "The Herald of the Future Age." By this time he was living in Virginia.
    In 1848, near the time when Christadelphianism was founded in America, he returned to England to speak on his brand of religion and found the soil there fertile. To this day, England has the largest number of Christadelphians. While in England, he wrote the book called "Elpis Israel" which means "Hope of Israel." It is a thorough work of his beliefs discussion creation, God’s law, sin, death, immortality, religion, the coming Kingdom, and a host of other subjects. He then returned to America.
    The Christadelphians do not believe in participating in war. So, when the Civil War broke out, they refused to go. In order to be recognized as a religious group that did not believe in fighting, they needed a name. Dr. Thomas gave them the name "Christadelphian" which, in Greek means "Brethren of Christ."
    In 1862, Thomas returned to England again and found that his book "Elpis Israel" had helped to bring about congregations that followed his theology. He lectured extensively and helped to anchor Christadelphianism in England. He returned to America again.
    Thomas visited England one more time in 1869 after writing the book "Eureka."
    On March 5, 1871 Dr. Thomas died in New York. He is buried in Brooklyn.

    Thomas was a tireless worker who sought to study and discover God’s true meaning and doctrine of the Bible. Unfortunately, despising the counsel and wisdom of those more learned than himself, he sought to single-handedly "rediscover" the true gospel which, in his opinion, had been lost from the earth. Like so many others in the 19th century, he began a religious movement that really is a development of his personal beliefs. Therefore, the Christadelphian religion, like Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Christian Science, is merely another erring religious system begun by a single person who claimed to know more than anyone else about the Bible.
    It is a non-Christian cult.



    CHRISTIAN APOLOGETICS AND RESEARCH MINISTRY
     
  18. Jedi

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    Just thought I’d apply past research to this present discussion... :)

    Scripture does teach the doctrine of the trinity. The word “trinity” won’t be found in the Bible, of course, since it’s Latin, but that doesn’t mean the teaching is not there (I don't recall Jesus ever saying that he loves people, but that doesn't mean there's no evidence that he does). I’m sure we can all agree that the Father is Jehovah God (Father=God). Scripture definitely teaches the equation Jesus=God (read on, and you’ll see how).

    Jesus himself claimed to be Yahweh. He prayed, “And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began” (John 17:5). But Yahweh of the Old Testament said, “I will not give my glory to another” (Isaiah 42:8). Jesus also declared “I am the first and the last” (Revelation 1:17)—precisely the words used by Jehovah in Isaiah 42:8. Jesus said, “I am the good shepherd” (John 10:11), but the Old Testament said, “Yahweh is my shepherd” (Psalms 23:1). Further, Jesus claimed to be the judge of all people (Matthew 25:31f; John 5:27), but Joel quotes Jehovah as saying, “for there I will sit to judge all the nations on every side” (Joel 3:12). Likewise, Jesus spoke of himself as the “bridegroom” (Matthew 25:1) while the Old Testament identifies Jehovah in this way (Isaiah 62:5; Hosea 2:16). While the Psalmist declares, “The Lord is my light” (Psalms 27:1), Jesus said, “I am the light of the world” (John 8:12).

    Another claim Jesus made to be Yahweh is in John 8:58, where he says, “Before Abraham was, I am.” This statement claims not only existence before Abraham, but equality with the “I AM” of Exodus 3:14. The Jews around him clearly understood his meaning and picked up stones to kill him for blaspheming (cf. John 8:58, and 10:31-33). The same claim is made in Mark 14:62 and John 18:5-6.

    The Old Testament forbids worshiping anyone other than God (Exodus 20:1-4; Deuteronomy 5:6-9). The New Testament agrees, showing that humans refused worship (Acts 14:15), as did angels (Revelation 22:8-9). But Jesus accepted worship on numerous occasions, showing he claimed to be God. A healed leper worshiped him (Matthew 8:2), a group of Canaanite women (Matthew 15:25), the mother of James and John (Matthew 20:20), the Gerasene demoniac (Mark 5:6), all worshiped Jesus without a word of rebuke. The disciples worshiped him after his resurrection (Matthew 28:17). This could only be allowed by a person who seriously considered himself to be God. Not only did Jesus accept this worship due to God alone without rebuking those who gave it, but he even commended those who acknowledged his deity (John 20:29, Matthew 16:17).

    This is also not to mention very clear verses where Jesus is flat out addressed as God in such examples as Titus 2:13, and Hebrews 1:8.

    Now we have the equations Father=God & Jesus=God.

    Now we come to evidence for the divinity of the Holy Spirit. Acts 5:3-4 reads, “Then Peter said, ‘Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God’” (Bolds mine).

    So now you have Jesus=God & Father=God & Holy Spirit=God. Now we must ask ourselves: How many gods are there? Scripture is very clear: just one. Isaiah 43:10 reads, "'You are my witnesses,' declares the Lord, 'and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.'"

    So now we end up with Jesus=Father=Holy Spirit=God=1. It doesn’t get much more simple than that.

    Now for franklin's objections.

    This is an objection that’s really not solid at all. Notice, however, that Jesus did not deny that he was God; he asked the young man to examined the implications of what he said. Jesus was saying, “Do you realize what you are saying when you call me good? Are you really saying that I am God?” Of course, the man did not realize the implications of either his statements or what the law was really saying, so Jesus was forcing him into a very uncomfortable dilemma. Either Jesus was good and God, or he was evil and human, for each human is evil and does not deserve eternal life.

    This is a reference to Psalm 22, which, by the time Christ came around, was thought to be a prophecy about the Messiah. The most likely reason that Jesus cried this out was to get the people to realize, even as he was dying on a cross, that he was the Messiah.

    Where’s the problem in this? He sent himself to do this mission (Just as I just sent myself to go eat lunch a little while ago). Saying it this way clarifies that he doesn’t come with the authority of mere man, but with the authority of God himself.

    Jesus is man and God in one. The glory of the human side of him “means nothing,” while the God in Jesus is what glorifies him.

    Again, it’s a mere clarification that Jesus didn’t come with man’s authority, but God’s. He is God in the flesh (Colossians 2:9).
     
  19. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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    Well, sarge, since it's obvious your going to continue to ignore my previous questions and scripture references, here are a few more questions for you to try and answer! 

    Trinitarians are always coming up with the same old excuse to explain in roundabout terms that the scripture implies the trinity exists, in that case, how do you answer these questions:

    1. Why would the Bible only "imply" what trinitarians say is its central doctrine?

    2. Why would the central doctrine of the Christian religion have to be developed and added centuries later?

    You can join in on this to jedi....  I'm going to be getting to some of your quotes also, so just hang in there.....  ;)



     
     
  20. Jedi

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    And I’ve already answered your scripture references.

    If it were truly only implied, it would probably be for the same reason Jesus never says he loves people, yet people to believe that to be true and hold it as a critical part of who Jesus is. Again, for something to be taught, it doesn’t need to be taught by the use of certain words (i.e. “trinity,” which is Latin in origin anyway). Not only this, but scripture does more than imply it: It's teachings are practically in stone. The Father is God, Jesus is God, the Holy Spirit is God, and there is only one God. An honest reading of the text would see this to be true, and the result is the age-old concept we now call the "trinity."

    Centuries later? The doctrine was always there (it's recorded in scripture, and if you don't believe the Bible, then there's no reason for you to be in this discussion). To say it was "developed and added centuries later" is very fallacious of you, and as I recall, St. Augustine, who lived fairly close to the time of Christ, centuries before even the birth of Islam, believed in the doctrine of the Trinity (See Geisler, Norman L. Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics. 733). He even suggested an illustration of how God is both three and one at the same time. The Bible informs us that “God is love” (1 John 4:16). Love involves a lover, a beloved, and a spirit of love between the lover and loved. The Father might be likened to the Lover; the Son to the One loved, and the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of love. Yet love does not exist unless these three are united as one. This illustration has the advantage of being personal, since it involves love, a characteristic that flows only from persons.

    Oh, I very much look forward to it. To see you jump through the hoops necessary to say that Jesus isn’t God himself would be a very interesting show (Since, this would be necessary for you. Otherwise, if you admitted Jesus is God, then a plurality in the Godhead has been acknowledged).
     
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