• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.
  7. There has been an addition to the announcement regarding unacceptable nick names. The phrase "Let's go Brandon" actually stands for a profanity and will be seen as a violation of the profanity rule in the future.

Jesus is coming in the flesh...

Discussion in 'Exposition & Bible Study' started by orbiter, Jun 28, 2018.

  1. orbiter

    orbiter Active Member

    439
    +61
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Peace.

    Good morning.

    The eternal life of Jesus is for us in the here and now as the Son was sent into this world so that this world might be saved through Him.

    Whosoever believes in (INTO) Him should not perish but have His everlasting life made manifest in our mortal flesh in this world so that this dark and dying world shall see His appearing glory and glorify God.

    John 3:16-17 KJV
    (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    (17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


    We are to keep the “daily” sacrifice of our Lord Jesus (ALWAYS bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus) so that the eternal life of Jesus might also be made manifest in our mortal body….our MORTAL FLESH.

    2 Corinthians 4:10-11 KJV
    (10) Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

    Jesus IS COMING in the flesh….being made manifest in our mortal flesh.

    (11) For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

    This is not about “dying and going to Heaven” as we ALL have heard men preach in every church gathering. No, this is about receiving the “promise” of the eternal life of Jesus in our mortal flesh in the here and now.

    We are to do the will of God so that we might receive the promise….the promise of the eternal life of Jesus that is to be made manifest in our mortal body. Jesus IS COMING in the flesh…our mortal flesh of which many deceivers and antichrists are not making the good confession of as they are not preaching it. .

    Hebrews 10:35-37 KJV
    (35) Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
    (36) For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.


    He that IS COMING (not “shall come”….but IS COMING) will arrive and not tarry. Jesus IS COMING in the flesh….our mortal flesh.

    (37) For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.


    Again, let us not become weary in well doing so that we reap in DUE SEASON the eternal life of Jesus if we faint not. If we continually sow to the Spirit, then of the Spirit shall we reap life everlasting….and this everlasting life is for the here and now and will appear in “due season”. .

    Galatians 6:7-10 KJV
    (7) Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
    (8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
    (9) And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
    (10) As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.


    Let that which we have heard from the beginning abide in us….remembering to always have love for one another. IF we CONTINUE in the Son and in the Father…..

    1 John 2:24-26 KJV
    (24) Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

    ….then we shall receive the PROMISE that He promised us: the eternal life of Jesus in the here and now. This is a now thing. Eternal life is for the here and now.

    (25) And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

    Those who seduce us with their good words and fair speeches lead us down the broad way to the destruction of our mortal flesh. They do not confess that Jesus IS COMING in the flesh. No, they think that the Lord “delays His coming” and are preaching that Jesus will come some day in the future.

    They remove the keeping of the “daily” sacrifice out of our lives so that the life of Jesus is never made manifest in our mortal body which would give us His eternal life as they preach the doctrines and commandments of men that are not saving the flesh of anyone.

    His eternal life is being cut off from the earth by those who lead us astray. The Son of man (the life of Jesus appearing in our mortal flesh) is being betrayed into the hands of sinners….of those who come to lead us astray.

    (26) These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.


    The Son of man “goes” (withdraws, retires, sinks out of sight) as it is written of Him as His life is being betrayed into the hands of sinners. His life is being prevented from appearing in the mortal flesh because of those who come forth to lead us astray away from the Way of righteousness and we have no understanding of the good news of His appearing life for the here and now.

    Matthew 26:24 KJV
    (24) The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born
    .

    Those who seduce us come forth to deceive when we become “faint and weary” in well doing. Let us not become weary in well doing so that we may reap life everlasting in this life.

    If we become faint and weary in well doing, then the spiritual “Amaleks” meet us by the Way of righteousness just as we are escaping the pollutions of this world (coming forth out of “Egypt”).

    “Amalek” means “people who lick”….that is, they flatter us with the tongue as they speak “good words and fair speeches” in order to lead us astray from the Way that leads to eternal life now. They use their flattery to cut us off from the Way that leads to life.

    Deuteronomy 25:17-19 KJV
    (17) Remember what Amalek did unto thee by the way, when ye were come forth out of Egypt;
    (18) How he met thee by the way, and smote the hindmost of thee, even all that were feeble behind thee, when thou wast faint and weary; and he feared not God.
    (19) Therefore it shall be, when the LORD thy God hath given thee rest from all thine enemies round about, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance to possess it, that thou shalt blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven; thou shalt not forget it.


    The spiritual “Amaleks”…the people who flatter with the tongue….speak great swelling words of vanity as they come forth to those who are just escaping the pollutions of the world (coming out of “Egypt”) through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. .

    2 Peter 2:18-22 KJV
    (18) For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
    (19) While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
    (20)
    For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

    They meet us by the Way of righteousness in order to cut us off from the narrow way that leads to life in this earth….and that life is the appearing life of Jesus in our mortal flesh. They want us to turn from the Holy Commandment (to have love for one another) that was delivered to keep.

    (21) For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
    (22) But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mir
    e.

    Those who seduce us will hear about the promise of His eternal life being made manifest in our mortal flesh and will scoff: where is the PROMISE of His coming? Where is His eternal life being made manifest in this earth for all have died since the beginning of creation. The “fathers fell asleep”…they died.

    2 Peter 3:3-4 KJV
    (3) Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
    (4) And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.


    They will smite His servants who are sent out to speak His words…the good news of our salvation in the here and now. They will smite them with malicious words and take pleasure in those who will do the same. They will say within their heart “my Lord delays His coming”.

    Matthew 24:48-49 KJV
    (48) But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
    (49) And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunke
    n;

    Every spirit (breath) that does not confess that Jesus Christ IS COMING in the flesh …our mortal flesh…is not of God. This is something that is NOT being preached that Jesus is coming in our mortal flesh (the good confession to be made). The breath (spirit) of the antichrist is not preaching (confessing) this very thing: that Jesus is coming (continuous tense) in our mortal flesh giving us His eternal life in this earth.

    1 John 4:1-6 KJV
    (1) Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
    (2) Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:


    MANY “preachers” are not making the good confession (not preaching it) that Jesus is coming in our mortal flesh and will give our mortal bodies His eternal life. That preacher is not anointed with the Spirit of Truth as he is not preaching the Word of Truth. He is of the breath of the antichrist...instead of Christ (anointed)...even though he claims that he is anointed to preach.

    (3) And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
    (4) Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.


    Those who are worldly in the church are listening to them and will not want to hear the Word of God spoken in the Spirit of Truth.

    (5) They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

    Those who are of God will hear and those who are not will turn their ear from hearing. They would rather hear the word of man that preaches in the spirit (breath) of error.

    (6) We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.


    Those men of God who are led by the Spirit make the good profession….that is, the good CONFESSION that Jesus is indeed coming in our mortal flesh which gives us His eternal life of which we are to believe in and lay hold on.

    1 Timothy 6:11-12 KJV
    (11) But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
    (12) Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Useful Useful x 1
    • List
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

    +2,236
    Christian
    There are verses such as Gal 2:20 which speak about Jesus' presence in us. But I'm surprised that you deny or somehow overlooked the many verses that explicitly teach of his return in the future, distinct from our flesh.

    "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first." 1Th 4:16

    "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven." Acts 1:11

    Mt 24:
    27 "For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
    28 "For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
    29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
    30 "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    31 "And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
    32 ¶ "Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near.
    33 "So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near——at the doors!
    34 "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.
    35 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
    36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.
    37 "But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
    38 "For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
    39 "and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
    40 "Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
    41 "Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.
    42 "Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.
    43 "But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into.
    44 "Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
     
  3. orbiter

    orbiter Active Member

    439
    +61
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Hi bcbsr,

    Peace. Thanks for reading.

    We hear His voice first from Heaven speaking to our ears and we have the witness that this is His Son speaking within our very own hearts (the light shines in the darkness of our hearts). He is the "bright and morning Star" arising in our hearts as we hear His voice and we know that this is His Son whom we are to hear.

    The presence of the Son speaking is evident to us as the “lightening shines from the east unto the west” within our once-darkened hearts. The Lord Himself descends from Heaven with a shout…with a command to “ARISE” from our “sleep”….and put on Christ. We are to awake from the “dead”…from being dead in trespasses and sins and put on Christ at the hearing of His voice.

    "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first." 1Th 4:16

    We hear His Word first without seeing Him yet (without seeing the manifestation of His eternal life in our mortal flesh yet). Blessed (happy) are those who hear and believe without seeing His life appear yet. When He shall appear (Christ within us the hope of glory....His manifest life in our mortal flesh), we shall appear with Him in glory. No man shall be able then to take away our joy.

    John 20:28-30 KJV
    (28) And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
    (29) Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.


    If we are RISEN with Christ, we are to seek those things which are above (peace, love, joy, gentleness, kindness, patience). He comes in the “clouds” of people who will seek those things above. The literal clouds are in the sky….they are purified water. We are caught up with Him in “clouds”…..people who seek those things above.

    Colossians 3:1-10 KJV
    (1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
    (2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.


    Our life is hid with Christ in God. Christ within us the hope of glory….the hope that His life is to be made manifest in our mortal flesh in “due season”.

    (3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.


    When Christ who is our life within us shall appear (manifest in our mortal flesh), then we shall also appear with Him in glory as this dark and dying world shall see His life appear in our mortal flesh and will praise God in Heaven.

    (4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.


    But we must deaden our members (such as our tongues) which are upon the earth and seek those things above becoming the “clouds” of Heaven….the people who dwell on things above. We do not physically leave this earth but seek and do those things which are above.

    (5) Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
    (6) For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
    (7) In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
    (8) But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
    (9) Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
    (10) And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:


    He that will HEAR His Word and believe on Him (His testimony is true) that sent the Son has everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation but is passed from death unto life. We have the witness of God within our very own hearts as He commands the Light to shine out of the darkness of our own hearts.

    John 5:24-29 KJV
    (24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


    The “dead”…..we are dead in trespasses and sins….shall hear His voice and those that truly hear (believe) shall LIVE.

    (25) Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
    (26) For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
    (27) And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of m
    an.

    We have been in the “graves” …the churches of carnally-thinking men where there is no life. We are commanded to “arise” and go from the churches of men where there is no life.

    We shall hear His voice and come forth. Some will hear and do good unto the resurrection of life while others will speak evil of what they hear the Son saying and will be judged accordingly. As He hears, He judges and His judgment is just.

    (28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    (29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the
    resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


    He quickens us with His voice. We were “dead” in trespasses and sins within the churches of men where many serve and worship the handwriting of church dogmas and judge each other over the keeping of them.

    Ephesians 2:1-8 KJV
    (1) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
    (2) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
    (3) Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
    (4) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,


    Even when we were “dead” in sins, He makes us alive together with Christ. He raises us up together (the “clouds” of people who shall seek those things above).

    (5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

    (6) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
    (7) That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
    (8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
     
  4. orbiter

    orbiter Active Member

    439
    +61
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Jesus IS COMING (continuous tense) in our mortal flesh as His life is to be made manifest in our mortal body. Behold, He is coming quickly.

    Were the apostles wrong when they thought His coming was imminent? Of course not as they preached that it is His life that shall appear in our mortal flesh giving us His eternal life in this earth where we become the many “infallible proofs” to this dark and dying world that Jesus is indeed alive as we are alive with His life in this earth. We are to be to the praise of His glory in this earth who first trust in what Christ says to us in the hearing of His voice in the Spirit of Truth.

    But we must have FAITH in this. The Just One shall live by faith as we believe INTO Him as the life of Jesus is made manifest in our mortal flesh in due season because we believe and patiently await His appearance. There will be mocking of course against such an idea as the Scriptures say (where is the promise of His coming?). We must contend for the faith as there are MANY deceivers among us.

    MANY deceivers have entered into this world who are not confessing (preaching) that Jesus Christ IS COMING in the flesh….our mortal flesh. Instead, they think within them that the Lord “delays His coming” and will “smite” those who preach this idea with malicious words and contentions.

    Many put His coming into the future when He IS COMING (continuous tense) in our mortal flesh if we keep His “daily” sacrifice in our mortal bodies. Behold, He comes quickly. Let no man take your crown of life. Let no man deceive you. Let no man take the keeping of the “daily” sacrifice of our Lord out of your life so that His life never appears.

    The many “preachers” deceive many by saying “I am the Christ (anointed)”…that is, I am anointed with the Spirit of God….it is Christ speaking in me. They say they come in His name (authority) and speak His words. The many deceivers are deceiving MANY.

    They are not the anointed but are of the “antichrist” instead….that is, they are the “instead of Christ” even though they claim to be the anointed (Christ) with the Spirit and are preaching in the Spirit of Truth. They are MANY imposters….deceivers who are leading MANY astray away from the Way that leads to life…His eternal life in this earth. MANY are going down the wrong road to the destruction of their mortal flesh without the life of Jesus being made manifest.

    Matthew 24:4-5 KJV
    (4) And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
    (5) For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive man
    y.

    They say that they speak with the Spirit of God but do not confess (preach) that Jesus Christ IS COMING in the flesh…our mortal flesh. They say they that they speak in Christ (I am the anointed) but they prove to us that they are not of God because they don’t have the correct message of the good news of our salvation for the here and now.

    1 John 4:1-3 KJV
    (1) Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.


    The MANY deceivers…antichrists…fail the test for they do not confess that Jesus Christ IS COMING in our mortal flesh. They are not looking for Him to appear there and are not preaching it to the many who listen to them.

    (2) Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:


    They preach not with the Spirit of Truth but of the spirit (breath) of error (the breath of the antichrist).

    (3) And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

    Those who preach with the Spirit of Truth are of God (“We are of God”) and preach that Jesus IS COMING in the flesh….as His life appears in our mortal flesh giving us His eternal life in this earth. Those who are of God will hear and those who are not will not hear. The children of the wicked will not DO His righteousnes when they hear the Word of Truth spoken to them but instead will do unrighteousness.

    1 John 4:6 KJV
    (6) We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

    The MANY deceivers preach for money’s sake….peddling ("corrupt" = retail, peddle) the Word of God….and are not of God and do not speak in Christ in the sight of God.

    2 Corinthians 2:17 KJV
    (17) For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

    The thief comes not but to steal, and to kill and to destroy for he leads many astray from the Way of righteousness that leads to His life appearing in our mortal flesh. Destruction and misery are in their ways.

    John 10:10 KJV
    (10) The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

    If we become forgetful (falling asleep) to have love for one another, then the deceiver…the antichrist (the “instead” of Christ who claims to be speaking in Christ) uses this “power of darkness” to lead us astray.

    2 John 1:5-7 KJV
    (5) And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
    (6) And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.


    If we do not walk (a continuous walk) after the commandment to have love for one another (the Holy Commandment delivered to us to keep), then the MANY deceivers who are NOT confessing that Jesus Christ is coming in our mortal flesh lead us astray to our mortal death.

    (7) For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.


    They do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ even though they claim to come in His name (authority). They peddle the Word of God in order to get their earthly needs met as they serve their own belly which blinds their minds from the good news of Christ.

    Romans 16:17-18 KJV
    (17) Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.


    By using “good words and fair speeches” do they deceive the hearts of the simple….who become weary in well doing.

    (18) For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.


    They will mock: “where is the promise of His coming?” Where is His appearing eternal life in the mortal flesh?

    Jude 1:18-21 KJV
    (18) How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.


    They cause divisions among us and are sensual, not having the Spirit (even though they claim “I am the anointed”). They are worldly and the world listens to them but we are of God and we listen to the Spirit speaking to us in Christ.

    (19) These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
    (20) But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,


    We who hear and believe are to keep ourselves in the love of God looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ UNTO ETERNAL LIFE.

    (21) Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.


    We, who hear the Word of Truth….the good news of our salvation, are to put our trust in Christ. We believe without seeing His life appear yet in our mortal flesh but we hear His voice and believe His testimony and are not ashamed of His words.

    Ephesians 1:12-14 KJV
    (12) That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
    (13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promis
    e,

    We are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise (the promise of eternal life) which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the “purchased possession”….our mortal body. When the life of Jesus appears in our mortal body, those of the world who shall see and believe will glorify and praise God above. We are to be to the praise of His glory who first trusted in Him (hearing and believing His words) without seeing His appearing life yet.

    (14) Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

     
  5. 1 John 4:1

    1 John 4:1 Member

    222
    +73
    United States
    Messianic
    Private
    US-Libertarian
    I can tell you have, looked at and/or know, some greek :) I also am fascinated by much of what you are saying. I was about to disagree with you on clouds being a symbol of people seeking things above but then I looked it up and think you are pretty close--if not correct--in your statement:

    The Hebrew so rendered means "a covering," because clouds cover the sky. The word is used as a symbol of the Divine presence, as indicating the splendour of that glory which it conceals ( Exodus 16:10 ; 33:9 ; Numbers 11:25 ; 12:5 ; Job 22:14 ; Psalms 18:11 )
    . . .
    At the dedication of the temple also the cloud "filled the house of the Lord" ( 1 Kings 8:10 ). Thus in like manner when Christ comes the second time he is described as coming "in the clouds" ( Matthew 17:5 ; 24:30 ; Acts 1:9Acts 1:11 ).
    Cloud Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary

    The Old Testament. The Literal Cloud. Natural phenomena involving clouds are depicted occasionally in the Old Testament, but far from being only "natural," these are invariably linked with the direct activity of God. Especially in the books of Job and Psalms, cloud-related phenomena are described as evidence of God's mighty, wondrous works and inscrutable ways ( Job 22:14 ; 26:8-9 ; 35:5 ; 36:28-29 ; Job 37:11 Job 37:15-16 Job 37:18 ; Job 38:9 Job 38:34 Job 38:36-37 ; Psalm 77:17 ; 147:8 ). The rainbow in the clouds is a sign of the covenant ( Genesis 9:13-14 Genesis 9:16 ), and clouds themselves are presented as witnesses to the surety of the covenant with David ( Psalm 89:37 ).
    Cloud, Cloud of the Lord Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary

    I especially want to commend you for noticing the "into" meaning rather than "in" in the commonly translated: "whosoever believeth in him" John 3:16. I already knew that but what I did not know is what you pointed out about 1 John 4:2 1 John 4:2 Interlinear: in this know ye the Spirit of God; every spirit that doth confess Jesus Christ in the flesh having come, of God it is, which is that it is in the perfect active voice: Greek Parsing: V-RPA-AMS -- Verb - Perfect Participle Active - Accusative Masculine Singular There's a subtle difference about this I did not know in grammar. To quote "it emphasizes the present, or ongoing result of a completed action." Course II, Lesson 3 (also see attached image from the same article) If my understanding is correct it is not only saying that Christ has already come but suggesting that he is still here. . . Thank you so much for pointing this out I'm going to tell this to the people in my online Bible study tonight. You just made my day :) I'm always excited when I learn something new and possibly paradigm-shifting like this about scripture.

    I have grappled with some similar issues in the coming of Christ before. You can see how I've tried to resolve things here:
    Theory on the Number of the Beast
    Theory on the Number of the Beast
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jun 29, 2018
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  6. orbiter

    orbiter Active Member

    439
    +61
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Hi 1 John 4:1,

    Peace to you. Thank you for reading this thread and considering what is being said. Anyone who peacefully considers what is being said is a friend indeed. Thank you friend! Very relevant verse (1 John 4:1).

    Some things to consider further...

    We believe into Jesus as His life is made manifest in our mortal flesh which gives us His eternal, heavenly life in this earth.

    We should not perish from this world but have His appearing everlasting life for God did not send His Son INTO this world to condemn it but that this world THROUGH Him might be saved. He gives His flesh for the life of the world. We, as believers, were not to perish from this world but be saved through Him and others shall see and glorify God.

    John 3:16-17 KJV
    (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    (17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


    Jesus IS COMING in our mortal flesh to give our bodies His eternal life in this earth. We are to hope for this and wait patiently as He IS COMING QUICKLY to redeem our mortal bodies from death.

    Romans 8:23-25 KJV
    (23) And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

    We are saved by hope . We hope and believe for that which we see not but know that He shall appear in due season. With patience do we wait for it. We are to patiently wait for the Lord who IS COMING in flesh…our mortal flesh. If all that we have is hope in this life, then we are people most miserable. There is something more: His life being made manifest in our mortal flesh for the world to see and believe in .

    (24) For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
    (25) But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it
    .

    Every man that has this hope in Him purifies himself even as He is pure.

    1 John 3:1-3 KJV
    (1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

    It does not appear TO THE WORLD ( who does not know us yet) what (or who) we are: the sons of God.

    But it will be made manifest in due time as they will see the Light when His life appears in the mortal flesh of those who hear and believe in Him without seeing Him yet. We are to be to the praise of His glory who first trusted in Christ and His testimony…. that is believed when heard without seeing the evidence first.

    (2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
    (3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.


    The earnest expectation of the creation waits for the MANIFESTATION of the sons of God. How can they see or believe without something tangibly visible.

    Romans 8:18-19 KJV
    (18) For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
    (19) For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.


    Those of this world will only believe when they literally see His life appear in our mortal flesh….just as Thomas.

    John 20:24-25 KJV
    (24) But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came
    .

    “Except I shall see……. I will not believe”

    (25) The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

    They will only believe when they visibly see Him and will glorify God: “My Lord and my God.”

    John 20:27-29 KJV
    (27) Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
    (28) And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.


    But blessed (happy) are they that have not seen and yet believe in what He says in the Spirit of Truth.

    (29) Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

    If all that we have is just hope in this life in this world, the we are ALL men most miserable. But no…. there is something more tangible to see: His appearing life in our mortal flesh.

    We are begotten again unto a LIVING hope and not a dying one because Christ is indeed risen from the dead and is alive so that we might have His life now. He already died for us so that we might live now in this earth through His life appearing in our mortal flesh. He died for us once already and now there is judgment for all of the unbelievers in this.

    1 Corinthians 15:19-24 KJV
    (19) If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
    (20) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
    (21) For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
    (22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


    We are the “first fruits” ….those who will hear and believe in His testimony without seeing Him yet.

    And then those of the world will believe only at Christ at His coming (in our mortal flesh). They will only believe when they visibly see His appearing glory in us. When He shall appear, we (the first fruits) shall appear with Him in glory as those in the world that belong to Christ shall glorify God when visibly seeing Him.

    (23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
    (24) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.


    We HEAR the Word of the LORD and tremble at His word. Yet, our brothers in the churches of men who will not hear and believe His testimony will hate us and cast us out for our faith in this.

    They will mock: “Let the LORD be glorified”. But He shall appear in glory (in our mortal flesh) to our joy and they shall be ashamed. They will be shut out from the inheritance that they should have had but did not because of their unbelief.

    Isaiah 66:5-6 KJV
    (5) Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.
    (6) A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.


    2 Thessalonians 1:8-12 KJV
    (8) In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    (9) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

    (10) When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
    (11) Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
    (12) That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ
    .


    About “clouds”….I would be neglectful if I didn’t mention the great “cloud of witnesses” we are surrounded by also.

    Hebrews 12:1-2 KJV
    (1) Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
    (2) Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.


    They are the biblical “cloud of witnesses” who obtained a good report (in the Scriptures) through faith and did not receive the promise…the promise of the eternal life of Jesus in this earth. We enter into the "cloud" of faith that they demonstrated for our benefit today. they suffered for their faith as we will today.

    They saw it from “afar” and believed without receiving it. They lived and suffered according to their faith in this even though they would not receive it in this earth. We must follow their example and suffer for our faith because our faith shall be tested by the unbelievers in the churches of men. But we shall receive the promise of His eternal life in this earth and the unbelievers shall be ashamed who mocked our faith.

    The biblical saints wrote about it (through the Spirit) for our benefit today and Christ comes to open up our minds to the Scriptures and we are to remember to let brotherly love continue and entertain strangers and their words when He does speak to us. He makes the written words of the biblical saints “alive” through His interpretation.

    Hebrews 11:39-40 KJV
    (39) And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:


    We are made “perfect”…complete…with the biblical saints as Jesus makes their witness alive for us today. We enter into the “cloud” of witness and become a witness as well.

    (40) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


    The biblical saints all died IN FAITH not having received the promises (of which we are today in this earth). They saw them “afar off” in time before the Son came into this world to save this world. They are the “dead in Christ” that rise first when Jesus interprets their words for us and makes them “alive”. Their witness is made alive in the interpretation of Christ who opens up the Scriptures to our understanding.

    The biblical saints were persuaded of them (the promises) and embraced them. We today are to inherit the eternal life of Jesus in this earth and shall inherit this earth and the other things promised to the fathers of which they saw “afar off”.

    They wrote of these things and Christ interprets their words for us in the Spirit of Truth (the Spirit makes alive their words...their witness) today so that we may have an understanding.

    Hebrews 11:13 KJV
    (13) These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

    We hear the words of the biblical saints whose words are made alive in our hearing in the Spirit of Truth (the Scripture of Truth) and put on Christ….the resurrection unto life.

    We who are the living and remain (after we hear their words made alive and believe) shall be caught up together with them IN CLOUDS not in “the” clouds. This is not literal. The unbelievers of what they hear shall not stand in His presence. We are the clouds of people who are focusing on the things above where the Lord sits at the right hand of God. He rules over us and we do His will and we are of one mind in Christ.

    1 Thessalonians 4:17 KJV
    (17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    We become part of the “cloud of witnesses” as He makes us partakers of the inheritance of the biblical saints in Light.

    Colossians 1:12-14 KJV
    (12) Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
    (13) Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
    (14) In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
     
  7. 1 John 4:1

    1 John 4:1 Member

    222
    +73
    United States
    Messianic
    Private
    US-Libertarian
    Question:
    “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.
    (Zechariah 12:10 NASB)

    BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
    (Revelation 1:7 NASB)

    If "every eye," even those who pierced him, will see him doesn't this mean that there would have to be a resurrection before these verses are finally fulfilled?
     
  8. orbiter

    orbiter Active Member

    439
    +61
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Hello friend!

    Thank you for your question. Sorry for the length as brevity is not one of my strong points. :)

    Some thoughts to ponder:

    These two verses (Zechariah 12:10 and Revelation 1:7) show two different kinds of mourning even though the words are very similar. In Zechariah, the mourning is one of repentance while the mourning of Revelation 1:7 is not.

    Not everyone is an “eye”….an “overseer of the church”. Some will pierce Him when they see Him coming amid the “clouds” of people. They will crucify Him afresh.

    Behold, He is coming amid the clouds and every “eye” shall see Him even those who pierce (afresh) Him and all of the tribes (tongues) of the “earth” will mourn over Him….as they will not be able to put up with what He says. They will mourn His words in their unbelief and will mourn the effect of His words upon the believers.

    BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
    (Revelation 1:7 NASB)

    The overseers of the churches will see the effect of the voice of the Lord upon those who will hear His voice and believe. The believers will depart from their churches in “clouds” of people as those who will hear and believe will no longer “buy” what they (the “eyes”…the overseers) are “selling “in their churches anymore which shall cause them much grief to see.

    The high priest (the overseer) “rent his clothes” in mourning of what he heard Jesus say. This mourning is not one of repentance but one of not being able to receive what Jesus said.

    Mark 14:61-65 KJV
    (61) But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
    (62) And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
    (63) Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?

    They will crucify Him afresh as they will speak evil of what they hear.

    (64) Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.
    (65) And some began to spit on him, and to cover his face, and to buffet him, and to say unto him, Prophesy: and the servants did strike him with the palms of their hands.


    The “resurrection”…or the “standing up”…is to those who are “dead” in trespasses and sins. We are “dead” already as we walk in this earth because the wages of sin is death…death to our mortal body. He quickens us with His voice that we are to hear and do well towards.

    Ephesians 2:1-6 KJV
    (1) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

    We once walked according to the prince of this world...the preacher who loves to have the preeminence among us. Words are spoken and travel in the air to our ears and there is power of death and life in the tongue.

    (2) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
    (3) Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
    (4) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
    (5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved


    But, He “raises us up” together and makes us sit together in heavenly places (where the “clouds” are congregated) in Christ Jesus.

    (6) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

    The “graves” in John 5:28 are the gatherings of men (“churches” of men) where no flesh is being saved. The life of Jesus is not being found in them as no mortal flesh is being saved as they fight among themselves over their individual handwriting of church dogmas….serving and worshipping it. Carnal men are living in divisions, envy and strife and hatred of one another as they serve their respective handwritings of church ordinances (dogmas) and put aside the commandment of God (to have love for one another).

    But by the mercy of God, the Son comes to give us an understanding as He opens up the Scriptures to our hearing ears in the Spirit of Truth so that we may depart from the churches of men where there is no life.

    Some will come forth and do well towards what they hear….unto the standing up of life (the eternal life of Jesus being made manifest in our mortal flesh) while others will do evil towards what they hear unto the standing up of the judgment for their evil speaking (as He hears, He judges and His judgment is just). They shall die in their sins…their evil speaking. There will be no more sacrifice for their willful sins as their judgment will not be turned away until they perish from this earth.

    John 5:28-29 KJV
    (28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    (29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnatio
    n.

    We have two groups of people that will either do good or do evil towards the hearing of His voice in this coming time as He opens up the Scriptures to our minds.

    Those who focus on the things above (the “clouds” of Heaven) will do good towards what they hear and those who focus only on the things of the earth (the “tribes of the earth”) will “mourn” what they hear. One group will rejoice at the hearing of His words while another will lament them…and this lamenting is not one of repentance.

    Those who “dwell on the earth” will be tempted to speak out in evil towards what they hear the “open door” of utterance (the open mouth) that speaks His words…His heavenly knowledge.

    Revelation 3:10 KJV
    (10) Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

    Those who will remember to have brotherly love (the meaning of “Philadelphia”) will use “little strength” towards what they hear the open mouth that speaks His words “Little strength” = few words. They will be poor in spirit….poor in breath….of few words.

    Revelation 3:7-8 KJV
    (7) And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
    (8) I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.


    They (those that “dwell upon the earth”) are focusing on those things “upon the earth”….the earthly wisdom. They are counseled to "deaden" their members which are upon the earth and focus on those things above.

    Colossians 3:5-6 KJV
    (5) Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
    (6) For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:


    Those who “dwell upon the earth” will have bitter envying and strife in their hearts of which they are to overcome. They must overcome and do well for sin lies at the “door” of the mouth.

    James 3:14-18 KJV
    (14) But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
    (15) This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
    (16) For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.


    Those who dwell upon the things above focus upon the wisdom that is from above and do those things. They are the “clouds” of Heaven….purified by the living water from above.

    (17) But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
    (18) And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
     
  9. 1 John 4:1

    1 John 4:1 Member

    222
    +73
    United States
    Messianic
    Private
    US-Libertarian

    Thanks. I'm not sure I can read all those things as exclusively metaphorical like the "eyes" being overseers and the "resurrection" being just our spiritual resurrection although I do see parallels and analogies that Paul indeed takes advantage of in places like Romans 6:4 Nevertheless, I think you have some very interesting ideas that I can use in my own studies and theories on eschatology and theology.

    I have another question. My friend and I were talking about this. How do you resolve these verses in Thessalonians with your view? (I have similar views he was asking me to resolve this with) How would you answer the objection that these verses show that the coming of Christ you talk of hasn't happened at the time of the writing of Thessalonians?

    2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. (NKJV)

    Also, I have an online Bible study that we do over skype at 7 pm eastern standard time on Friday nights. If you would like to join us sometime just let me know and I'll direct message you the details on how to join. You can also join audio-only on skype or via phone. We are currently going through this series and discussing it: https://renewedheartministries.com/presentation/Follow-the-Lamb Next study will be on the 6th lecture "A Scroll Unsealed" and there are about 5 people total that are on skype each time including me.
     
  10. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    +10,928
    Anabaptist
    ...
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2018
  11. 1 John 4:1

    1 John 4:1 Member

    222
    +73
    United States
    Messianic
    Private
    US-Libertarian
    There are big problems with all the mainstream theories on eschatology. (That's why there are so many very different viewpoints.) Here are a few points that are problems for all of them (unless you call preterism mainstream but that has it's own problems not discussed here) Theory on the Number of the Beast As I've said, I don't agree with everything the OP said but I'm keeping an open mind because I find some of this interesting and helpful for the problems I'm working through right now. (and I'm absolutely sure a lot of what I believe currently is wrong and will change as I study more)

    As for heresies, I tend to see heresies as things that cause divisions (factions) (sects). Thayer's explicitly says: "dissensions arising from diversity of opinions and aims" The word even has as it's first listed definition: "act of taking, capture." (force) Different theories on eschatology do not cause division unless you try to force everyone to have the same view. Here's an example of "heresies" and the definition of the word in Thayer's and some other lexicons:

    1 Cor 11
    17 Now in giving these instructions I do not praise you, since you come together not for the better but for the worse. 18 For first of all, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it. 19 For there must also be factions (αἵρεσις) (G139) among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you. 20 Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper. 21 For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk.

    https://studybible.info/strongs/G139

    https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G139&t=KJV

    The people who throw others out of the church for believing differently are the real heretics.
     
  12. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    +10,928
    Anabaptist
    ...
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2018
  13. 1 John 4:1

    1 John 4:1 Member

    222
    +73
    United States
    Messianic
    Private
    US-Libertarian
    My point is that the word heresy has the meaning of force and division/dissension, it is not what people commonly think: "false belief" Therefor the people who throw people out of church for "false beliefs" (calling it heresy) are actually being heretics while the people with "false beliefs" aren't necessarilly heretics. This is the irony I was pointing out.

    I appreciate your concern. I'm not trying to be combative I hope you understand I just have some points I feel I needed to get across. If you could point out where the OP is getting his ideas from then I would be very interested.

    The false gospel I've heard the scripture talk about seems to be about rejecting Christ himself or the grace of Chirst. I don't see where the OP is doing that:

    6I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

    10For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.
    (Galatians 1 NASB)

    1I wish that you would bear with me in a little foolishness; but indeed you are bearing with me. 2For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin. 3But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. 4For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully. 5For I consider myself not in the least inferior to the most eminent apostles. 6But even if I am unskilled in speech, yet I am not so in knowledge; in fact, in every way we have made this evident to you in all things.
    (2 Corinthians 11 NASB)

    Other than that I think we have to evaluate a doctrine before we determine it is false and some people will be at different places in their journey than others. However, again thanks for the concern if you have anything that shows that what the OP presents is false or rejects Christ you are free to present your case. Thanks.
     
  14. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    +10,928
    Anabaptist
    ...
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2018
  15. 1 John 4:1

    1 John 4:1 Member

    222
    +73
    United States
    Messianic
    Private
    US-Libertarian
    Far worse than rejecting Christ? Isn't Christ the main point?

    I can tell this concerns you greatly and I appreciate that. I just don't know what doctrines exactly you are referring to. You also say they have already been evaluated and determined years before us. However, this was done by men, and there are different denominations and different interpretations of many parts of scripture, so which sect or denomination should I listen to? In addition, the religious leaders in Jesus's day were wrong about a few things, what if some of these people are wrong in a similar way? Maybe the OP is horribly wrong about a lot of things and that's great because a study of the scripture and prayer will reveal more of the truth. It will be more beneficial to the OP that we discuss it with him than if we label his views as dangerous and refuse to talk to him. Isn't it the sick that need a doctor? Anyways, that's just my thoughts on the matter. Be blessed.
     
  16. orbiter

    orbiter Active Member

    439
    +61
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Sorry for not getting to you sooner. I ran out of time this morning and didn’t even get to read your post.

    Thanks for the Skype invite. I will think about it. I am not much of a talker….more of a writer as you can see.

    Some things for consideration:

    The “coming“ (presence) of our Lord Jesus Christ spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 speaks of the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ when we hear His voice as He opens up the Scriptures to our minds and we are gathered together unto Him to hear Him and be of one mind and believe His words (the gathering of the wheat). When this happens, don’t think that the day of Christ is instantly upon us as we hear His voice and know His presence within us.

    2 Thessalonians 2: KJV
    (1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

    When we come together to hear Him in this day as He opens up our understanding to the Scriptures, don’t think that the day of Christ is at hand or be shaken in mind by someone who might say it is.

    The “day of Christ” speaks of the coming judgment upon the wicked unbelievers of the churches (the burning of the “tares”) who will not assemble to hear Him. They will forsake the assembly in their unbelief and bad behavior. The judgment starts at the house of God.

    (2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.


    They (the tares)…who will not hear and believe…will fall away as they will not be able to receive His words and will speak evil of what they hear. They will not believe in what they hear.

    They will not be found (in His presence) obeying His gospel but obeying wrath and unrighteousness instead. The “man of sin” shall be revealed first, the son of perdition who is already at work “unawares” among the churches of men.

    (3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


    The man of sin in every church will exalt himself above the Word (all that is called God…the Word was God) of Truth and will do evil towards the hearing of His voice and the man of sin will say that he is doing his evil works it in the “name” (authority) of God and will want others to follow after his evil behavior.

    (4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


    An illustration of the “man of sin” is Diotrephes who loved to be first among the church. Same thing will happen again as the “Diotrephes’s” of the churches of today will exalt themselves and will not receive the brothers who come preaching the Word of Truth and will forbid others in their churches from receiving them.

    3 John 1:9-11 KJV
    (9) I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.

    The Lord will come in judgment and remember their evil deeds which they will do….the prating against His servants with malicious words. Their flattering tongues that were used to deceive others shall fall away and burn with wrath and become a cage of every unclean bird…..speaking evil words (unclean birds = unclean words).

    The Lord will send out the “least brothers” of His to speak His words of spirit and life to them but they will be found not being hospitable to “strangers” sent by Him. They will cast out of their churches any that will receive them and will want others to follow after his evil behavior.

    The man of sin will reveal himself with evil speaking and evil deeds….and this hasn’t happened yet for the Word of Truth is yet to be preached among the churches of men. The Word of God preached in the Spirit of Truth will manifest what is in the heart of every person whether it be good or bad.

    (10) Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.

    Follow not that which is evil (the manifest evil deeds of the man of sin in this coming time) but that which is good.

    (11) Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.


    These are the words of Jesus being echoed in 2 Thessalonians 2:5 (Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?) which are found in John 16:4 (But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you). 2 Thessalonians 2:5 = John 16:4.

    2 Thessalonians 2: KJV
    (5) Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?


    Remember how righteous Lot “lingered” in Sodom and had to be removed so that the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah could be destroyed?

    God will not destroy the righteous along with the wicked. They must be removed first from their churches and the man of sin be revealed and so we are not to worry that the Day of Christ is at hand because God will not destroy the righteous (the wheat) with them. He will deliver the righteous and reserve the unjust for the day of judgment...their punishment.

    (6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
    (7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.


    ONLY when the righteous are removed out of the way and the Wicked are revealed (left behind in bad behavior), then the Day of Christ comes for judgment upon them.

    (8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

    The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations (as the wicked church people will persecute those who will hear and believe). The Lord knows how to deliver them and reserve the unjust unto the day of Judgment (the day of Christ) to be punished.

    2 Peter 2:9-10 KJV
    (9) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

    The wicked (the man of sin) in the churches of men will despise those brothers sent out by the Lord to speak His words in His name…in the Lord’s authority. These will be bold men, selfwilled, who will not be afraid to speak evil of dignities sent out by Him in His name.

    (10) But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

    These things has the Lord spoken to us before so that we are not tripped up when these things happen in the churches of men.

    John 16:1-15 KJV
    (1) These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.


    They will put you of their gatherings (synagogues = gathering). They will mercifully put out the righteous who will hear and believe and yet continue to “linger” in their churches.

    The time is coming that whosoever will “kill” you (with slander and evil speaking) will think that he does God “service”…believing the lie that they are doing these “wonderful works” in His name (authority).

    (2) They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

    The time is coming to the churches of men when the will do these evil things to the believers of the Word of Truth. They… the wicked…will show that they do not know the Father nor the Son..

    (3) And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

    2 Thessalonians 2: (5) Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

    Compare:

    (4) But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.

    We must follow Him out of their churches and it is expedient for us to go away…following Jesus.

    (5) But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?
    (6) But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart
    .

    If we go away from their churches, then He shall send the Comforter to us….as we shall be persecuted for our faith and for leaving their churches. We must follow the footsteps of Jesus and depart from their churches.

    (7) Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
    (8) And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
    (9) Of sin, because they believe not on me;


    We must come out from among them and be separate and go to the Father so that we are the Father’s sons and daughters.

    (10) Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

    When we leave, it is a judgment upon those we leave behind. The “prince of this world” are those men who love to be first in the churches of men. They will be judged for their evil deeds.

    (11) Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
    (12) I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them no
    w.

    We shall no longer need a man to teach us as the Lord Himself will teach us with the Spirit of Truth sent to us after we have left their churches.

    (13) Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
    (14) He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
    (15) All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.


    The same day that Lot went out of Sodom, it rained fire and brimstone from heaven which destroyed them all.

    Luke 17:29-30 KJV
    (29) But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
    (30) Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


    They will think that they will be doing these “wonderful works” in His name…in His authority. And we are the “devils” that they will be casting out of their churches.

    Matthew 7:21-23 KJV
    (21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    (22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    (23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
     
  17. orbiter

    orbiter Active Member

    439
    +61
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Lot “lingered” and represents all of those who will also “linger” around in the churches of men after they have received the Word of Truth in belief. They will receive those brothers sent out by Him to speak His words….and yet the men of the city (the churches) will have nothing to do with it. The “cry” of them in the face of the hearing of His knowledge will be great for His Word will reveal what is in their hearts.

    Genesis 19:13-17 KJV
    (13) For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.

    The LORD will destroy the wicked within the churches of men…..and many will think this sounds like “mocking” unto them. We must depart and come out from among them or be consumed in the iniquity of the city. If we stay in their churches, then we will end up fighting with them….returning evil for their evil as they will speak of the believers as “evildoers”.

    (14) And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.
    (15) And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.
    (16) And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.
    (17) And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed.


    They will “weary” themselves with their evil speaking in their spiritual blindness to “find the door”….that is, for you to open the mouth (the door) and speak evil back to them for their evil.

    Genesis 19:9-11 KJV
    (9) And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.
    (10) But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.

    (11) And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.

    God will not destroy the wicked while the righteous are still “lingering” around in the churches of men….but He knows how to deliver them and reserve the wicked unto the day of Judgment for their punishment.

    Genesis 19:22 KJV
    (22) Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do any thing till thou be come thither. Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.

    Let us not “linger” around in their churches if we hear and receive His Word of Truth…for the persecution will only intensify the longer we stay. Pray that your “flight” from them be not in the “winter”….when their love has grown very cold towards you. There will be great tribulation….persecution upon you for staying too long.

    Matthew 24:20-22 KJV
    (20) But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
    (21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


    Lot was delivered but he “lingered” too long in Sodom and was “vexed” in his righteous soul from DAY TO DAY with their unlawful deeds. These evil deeds were directed towards him as they persecuted him for receiving those brothers sent out to speak the Word of God to him. It will only get worse and will vex our souls within us if we who will believe His Word of Truth linger too long in the churches of the unbelievers in this coming time.

    2 Peter 2:6-9 KJV
    (6) And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
    (7) And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

    (8) (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds
    (9) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
     
  18. orbiter

    orbiter Active Member

    439
    +61
    Non-Denom
    Married
    The Word is not dusty, historical book of facts but a living Word that applies to us especially today. His Spirit of Truth makes it alive in our hearing….bringing the words of the prophets and the apostles to life in our understanding. The living words of our Lord are as the sound of many waters….as He interprets the Scriptures (the written words of all of the biblical saints). We are expected to hear and keep silent….be of few words….being quick to hear and slow to speak and slow to wrath.

    He changes the Scriptures in our understanding…in a twinkling of an eye. The Lord is among the MYRIADS of “angels”…that is, CHANGES.

    Psalms 68:17 KJV
    (17) The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.

    And yet some will hear and think it is all be taken out of context. To them it will be ”line upon line”….. “here a little and there a little”. Don’t be tripped up and “fall back” by the “line-upon-line” (scripture upon scripture) method but hear and rest in what we hear. One verse from one book is couple together to another scripture from another book (here a little and there a little). Don’t get tripped up by it. Some will refuse to accept His teaching as they will lean upon their own “understanding”.

    Isaiah 28:9-13 KJV
    (9) Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
    (10) For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

    Some will just not understand.

    (11) For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
    (12) To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

    And they will fall backward and be broken and snared and taken as they refuse to listen because they disagree with the method.

    (13) But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
     
  19. Viren

    Viren Contributor

    +1,560
    Christian
    Single
    I read 1 John 4 years ago and came to the same conclusion. Jesus is coming in the flesh as in our flesh. Great post.

    It's also stated 2 Corinthians 13:5 "Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you-unless, of course, you fail the test?

    That's the true confession, because eternal life is in him. A full flowing of life now and forever.
     
  20. RaymondG

    RaymondG Well-Known Member

    +3,707
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    What do you mean when you say "keep His daily sacrifice?" In as few words as possible.....if possible.
     
Loading...