Jesus invented freedom of religion

Percivale

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Jesus invented freedom of religion. As far as I know he was the first to preach ideas of freedom of religion by saying that there are things you give to Caesar and other things to give to God which are separate and saying that his kingdom is not of this world. The early Christians follow this, supporting freedom of religion by denying that they were against the Roman Empire yet refusing to offer incense to Caesar and such things. The Roman empire had a very broad tolerance of any formal polytheism but did not tolerate worldviews that were not polytheistic.
 

2PhiloVoid

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Jesus invented freedom of religion. As far as I know he was the first to preach ideas of freedom of religion by saying that there are things you give to Caesar and other things to give to God which are separate and saying that his kingdom is not of this world. The early Christians follow this, supporting freedom of religion by denying that they were against the Roman Empire yet refusing to offer incense to Caesar and such things. The Roman empire had a very broad tolerance of any formal polytheism but did not tolerate worldviews that were not polytheistic.

On a secular, civic level within the parameters of the politics of this present world, I'd say that what you've stated is true.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid
 
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timewerx

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Jesus invented freedom of religion. As far as I know he was the first to preach ideas of freedom of religion by saying that there are things you give to Caesar and other things to give to God which are separate and saying that his kingdom is not of this world. The early Christians follow this, supporting freedom of religion by denying that they were against the Roman Empire yet refusing to offer incense to Caesar and such things. The Roman empire had a very broad tolerance of any formal polytheism but did not tolerate worldviews that were not polytheistic.

Does this including having NO formal religion?

Because I see huge flaws in all religions. These are flaws you can't just try to ignore like a fly on your table. It's much much worse than that.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Does this including having NO formal religion?

Because I see huge flaws in all religions. These are flaws you can't just try to ignore like a fly on your table. It's much much worse than that.

...I never ignore a fly on my table. The fly swatter is always at hand. :D
 
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Winken

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Does this including having NO formal religion?

Because I see huge flaws in all religions. These are flaws you can't just try to ignore like a fly on your table. It's much much worse than that.
No exceptions?
 
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ananda

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Jesus invented freedom of religion. As far as I know he was the first to preach ideas of freedom of religion by saying that there are things you give to Caesar and other things to give to God which are separate and saying that his kingdom is not of this world. The early Christians follow this, supporting freedom of religion by denying that they were against the Roman Empire yet refusing to offer incense to Caesar and such things. The Roman empire had a very broad tolerance of any formal polytheism but did not tolerate worldviews that were not polytheistic.
If you're speaking of the freedom of thought to practice without compulsion, then the Buddha taught such a concept well before Jesus:

Buddhism is free from compulsion and coercion and does not demand of the follower blind faith. At the very outset the skeptic will be pleased to hear of its call for investigation. Buddhism from beginning to end is open to all those who have eyes to see and minds to understand. The Buddha never endeavored to wring out of his followers blind and submissive faith in him and his teaching. He tutors his disciples in the ways of discrimination and intelligent inquiry. To the inquiring Kalamas the Buddha answered: "Right is it to doubt, right is it to question what is doubtful and what is not clear. In a doubtful matter wavering does arise."

We find this dialogue between the Master and his disciples:

[The Buddha:] "If, now knowing this and perceiving this, would you say: 'We honor our Master and through respect for him we respect what he teaches?'"

"Nay, Lord."

"That which you affirm, O disciples, is it not only that which you yourselves have recognized, seen and grasped?"

"Yes, Lord."

MN 38

And in conformity with this thoroughly correct attitude of true inquiry the philosophers of later times observed: "As the wise test the purity of gold by burning, cutting and examining it by means of a piece of touchstone, so should you accept my words after examining them and not merely out of regard and reverence for me." (Jñanasara-Samuccaya) Thus blind belief is condemned in the analytic teaching (vibhajjavada) of the Buddha. The truth of the dhamma can be grasped only through calm concentrative thought and insight (samatha and vipassana) and never through blind faith. One who goes in quest of truth is never satisfied with surface knowledge. He wants to delve deep and see what is beneath. That is the sort of search encouraged in Buddhism. That type of search yields right understanding.

We read in the texts the following story: On one occasion Upali, a fervent follower of Nigantha Nathaputta, the Jain, visited the Buddha, thoughtfully listened to the dhamma, gained saddha (confidence based on knowledge) and forthwith manifested his readiness to become a follower of the Master. Nevertheless the Master said: "Of a truth, Upali, make thorough investigation," and thus discouraged him.

This clearly shows that the Buddha was not keen on converting people to his way of thinking, and to his fold. He did not interfere with another man's freedom of thought; for freedom of thought is the birthright of every individual. It is wrong to force someone out of the way of life which accords with his outlook and character, spiritual inclinations and tendencies; compulsion in every form is bad. It is coercion of the blackest kind to make a man gulp down beliefs for which he has no relish. Such forced feeding cannot be good for anybody, anywhere.
- source
 
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Jesus invented freedom of religion. As far as I know he was the first to preach ideas of freedom of religion by saying that there are things you give to Caesar and other things to give to God which are separate and saying that his kingdom is not of this world. The early Christians follow this, supporting freedom of religion by denying that they were against the Roman Empire yet refusing to offer incense to Caesar and such things. The Roman empire had a very broad tolerance of any formal polytheism but did not tolerate worldviews that were not polytheistic.

No he did not invent freedom to religion , giving Caesar back money does not mean you should bow to him , this is why Paul died .

Christianity is not religion , it's truth .
 
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Gene2memE

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Jesus invented freedom of religion. As far as I know

You've never heard of Cyrus the Great, I'll assume.

The Cyrus Cylinder, which set out the basis for the rules of his reign, set out concepts like freedom of religion (and equality) nearly 600 years before Jesus lived.

This is not to say that freedom of religion wasn't already a concept in the region. It had probably been that way, to a greater or lesser extent, for hundreds of years. The Babylonians, Assyrians and (perhaps) the Egyptians all had periods where they allowed a multi-religious polity within their borders and didn't require conversion.

Jesus was a swell guy and all, and he had some lovely philosophies, but lets not give him credit for ideas that in all likelyhood had already been around for centuries before his birth.
 
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Winken

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Every religion believes they have the truth. Christianity is classified as a religion. Truth does not negate a religion from becoming a religion.
Who did the classification? Religion imposes structure. Truth is salvation by Grace through Faith, not the works of religion.
 
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I should have said Jesus invented the separation of church and state.
Yet somehow the idea eluded his followers for multiple centuries...
 
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Gene2memE

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I should have said Jesus invented the separation of church and state.

Well, that's not right either.

Both the Greeks and Romans had enunciated secular philosophies well before the birth of Jesus. Epicurus wrote about concepts such as church/state separation, secularism and non-interventionist deities around 300 BC and Lucretius wrote took these concepts further in On the Nature of Things about 60 BC.
 
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Percivale

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Well, that's not right either.

Both the Greeks and Romans had enunciated secular philosophies well before the birth of Jesus. Epicurus wrote about concepts such as church/state separation, secularism and non-interventionist deities around 300 BC and Lucretius wrote took these concepts further in On the Nature of Things about 60 BC.
Can you give me some specific quotes where those philosophers taught freedom of religion?
Polytheistic societies have an natural level of tolerance since there is no contradiction for them in other nations worshiping other gods. However they would not necessarily tolerate atheism or a universal monotheism.
Was the separation of church and state actually ever implemented before the modern era?
 
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Gene2memE

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Can you give me some specific quotes where those philosophers taught freedom of religion?
Polytheistic societies have an natural level of tolerance since there is no contradiction for them in other nations worshiping other gods. However they would not necessarily tolerate atheism or a universal monotheism.
Was the separation of church and state actually ever implemented before the modern era?

Damn, I just lost a rather lengthy reply. Here's the shortenend version:

1. No, because my books are packed away for a move. But, look up On Nature and On the Universe and show me where religion enters into the affairs of man, at all.

2. That's a massive over generalisation that history shows to be more often wrong than correct. See the history of the large Middle Eastern, Mongol and Indo-Asia empires for societies that explicitly tolerated monotheism and even atheism (Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Jainism, Christianity and various atheistic strains of Hinduism and Buddhism for examples).

3. No. Not as far as I know. The first officially secular state was probably the Corsican Republic (1755). Secularism in its modern form wasnt really a principle until the Enligthement. The secular of Epicurus and Lucretius was based on the ideas of non-interventionist deities. The gods, they argued, don't meddle in the affairs of mortals, and mortals should take no heed of them when making their decisions.
 
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