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Jesus has fulfilled the Law and replaced it with these two

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Servant78, May 17, 2022.

  1. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    AMEN :oldthumbsup:. Well said sis.
     
  2. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    LOVE IS EXPRESSED IN OBEDIENCE TO GOD'S LAW NOT BY BREAKING IT

    Jesus is quoting from old testament scriptures in Matthew 22:36-40 from Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18 when he answers the question being asked of Him as to which is the greatest commandment in the law...
    • Matthew 22:36-40 [36], Master, which is the great commandment in the law? [37], Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind (from Deuteronomy 6:5). [38], This is the first and great commandment. [39], And the second is like to it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself (from Leviticus 19:18). [40] On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
    Note: Jesus is quoting old testament scriptures here and also note that Jesus says on these two great commandments of love to God and love to man hang all the law and the prophets. This is what Paul is referring to in Romans 13:8-10 when he shows that we show our love to our neighbor by obeying those laws in God's 10 commandments that show us how we are to love our fellow man. Notice what the scriptures say.
    • Romans 13:8-10 [8], Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loves another has fulfilled the law. [9], For this, thou shall not commit adultery, thou shall not kill, thou shall not steal, thou shall not bear false witness, thou shall not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly summed up in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.[10], Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling (obeying) of the law.
    Note: Paul is agreeing with Jesus where he shows that if we love our fellow man we will obey those commandments in God's 10 commandments that show us how we are to love our neighbor from the heart and that Leviticus 19:18 to love our neighbor as yourself is simply summing up obeying God's commandments (Romans 13:9). If we study a little deeper you will see that James and John are also in agreement with Jesus and Paul. Let's have a look first at what James says then John.
    • James 2:8-12 [8], If you fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, You shall love your neighbor as yourself, you do well: [9], But if you have respect to persons, you commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. [10], For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. [11], For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if you commit no adultery, yet if you kill, you are become a transgressor of the law. [12], So speak you, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
    Note: Once again we see James in agreement with Jesus and Paul showing the love is not separate from obedience to God's law and showing that if we brake those commandments that are to do with our fellow man we do not show love to our fellow man and are convicted by the law as breaking the law which we will be judged by. Let's move on to John who defines what God's love is.
    • 1 John 5:2-3 [2], By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. [3], For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
    ............

    Summary: As shown above from the scriptures Paul, James and John are all in agreement with Jesus and state that love is not separate from obedience to God's law. Love to God and our fellow man is expressed in obedience to God's law and is why Jesus says; "On these two commandments of love to God and man hang all the law and the prophets.

    Take Care.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2022
  3. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Jesus fills the need for laws. The New Covenant.
     
  4. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    But you didn't manage it. Plus, they were never given to you.

    2 Corinthians 3:6
    who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2022
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  5. SabbathBlessings

    SabbathBlessings Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I hope to be one of God’s saints- God’s saints keep His commandments. Revelation 14:12 and God does not show favoritisms, so we can all be one of His saints as we are grafted into His Israel in the New Covenant. Hebrews 8:10, Galatians 3:28-29 for those who follow His Word.
     
  6. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    God's Word is given to all those who believe and follow what Gods' Word says although we are in the new covenant now not the old covenant and God's Israel in the new covenant are no longer only those born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham but are now all those who through faith are born of the Spirit by believing and following what Gods' Word says (see Romans 9:6-8; Romans 2:28-29; Galatians 3:28-29; John 3:3-7 and 1 John 3:4-9). If we are not a part of God's Israel in the new covenant we have no part in God's new covenant promise which is only ever given to God's Israel *Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27. God never made a new covenant with gentiles according to the scriptures. Gentile believers are to be grafted in *Romans 11:13-26. Therefore all of Gods' Word is for Israel that is defined in the new covenant scriptures as all those who through faith believe and follow what God's Word says. You may want to consider that the name Israel was given by God to His people who believed and followed His Word and is not covenant dependent being given by God to Jacob outside of the old and new covenants.
     
  7. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    That's a lot of words to try and justify old, obsolete law.

    Romans 7:6
    But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

    2 Corinthians 3:14
    But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away.
     
  8. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Yes there are a lot of scriptures, that disagrees with your view on who Israel is in the old and new covenants. Gods' Word does not teach lawlessness (no law or without law). There is no scripture anywhere in the bible that says Gods' 10 commandments are obsolete and and everyone of God's 10 commandments are repeated in the new covenant as the standards of with is good (moral right doing when obeyed) and evil (moral wrong doing when disobeyed); sin (moral wrong doing when disobeyed) and righteousness (moral right doing when obeyed) *see Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172 and according to James if we break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin. Your mixing up the "shadow laws" from the old covenant for remission of sins with Gods' eternal law that gives us a knowledge of what sin is when broken in the new covenant *Romans 7:7; Romans 3:20.

    ARE ALL GOD'S TEN COMMANDMENTS REPEATED IN THE NEW TESTAMENT?

    [1] You shall have no other gods before Me - Exodus 20:3
    New covenant: Luke 4:8; Matthew 4:10; Revelation 14:7

    [2] You must not make for yourself a carved image, a likeness of anything in heaven, on earth, or under the sea - Exodus 20:2-5
    New covenant: John 4:24; Acts of the Apostles 15:20; 1 Corinthians 6:9; Ephesians 5:5; 1 Peter 4:3; 1 John 5:21; Revelation 2:14

    [3] You shall not take the Name of the Lord your God in vain - Exodus 20:7 New covenant: 1 Timothy 6:1, James 2:7

    [4] Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy - Exodus 20:8-11
    New covenant: Hebrews 4:9 The Sabbath [seventh day] was made for man, not man for the Sabbath, so the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath. (Mark 2:27-28, Hebrews 4; Matthew 12:8; Matthew 12:1-8; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56; Matthew 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56; John 2:6; Matthew 16:24; 1; (After the death of Jesus) Matthew 24:20; Matthew 28:1; Acts 13:14; 13:27; 13:44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4; Hebrews 4:1-5; 9-11; Revelations 1:10 (see Matthew 12:8)

    [5] Honor your father and mother - Exodus 20:12
    New covenant: Ephesians 6:1; Colossians 3:20; Matthew 15:4; Matthew 19:19

    [6] You shall not murder - Exodus 20:13
    New covenant: Matthew 5:44-45; Matthew 5:21-26; Romans 13:9; 1 Timothy 1:9; 1 John 3:15; James 2:11; Matthew 19:18

    [7] You shall not commit adultery - Exodus 20:14
    New covenant: Matthew 5:28, 1 Corinthians 5:11, 1 Cor. 6:18, Galatians 5:19, Hebrews 13:4, James 2:11, Matthew 19:19, Romans 13:9

    [8] You shall not steal - Exodus 20:15
    New covenant: 1 Corinthians 6:10, Romans 2:21, Mark 7:21, Ephesians 4:28, Romans 13:9, Matthew 19:18

    [9] You shall not bear false witness - Exodus 20:16
    New covenant: Matthew 15:19, Ephesians 4:25, Col. 3:9; Matthew 19:18, Romans 13:9

    [10] You shall not covet your neighbors possessions - Exodus 20:17
    New covenant: Luke 12:15, Romans 7:7, Ephesians 5:3, 1 Timothy 6:10, Hebrews 13:5, Romans 13:9.​
    ..............

    God's Word does not teach lawlessness. According to James we break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin - see James 2:10-11

    Take Care now.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2022
  9. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    You added this after I had already responded to your post. Here is the context you left out showing that Romans 7:6 is not talking about abolishing God's 10 commandments.

    IS ROMANS 7:6 SAYING GOD'S 10 COMMANDMENTS HAVE BEEN ABOLISHED?

    Many try to pull Romans 7:6 away from it's context to claim that it is saying that Gods' 10 commandments have now been abolished but what does the context say and what is the real meaning of Romans 7:6? The context of Romans 7 includes Romans 6:1-23; Romans 7:1-25 and Romans 8:1-13 and trying to apply an interpretation to fit a teaching of lawlessness (without law) is not biblical or supported in the scriptures.

    There is no where in the entire bible that teaches that God's 10 commandments are abolished. It is a teaching that has Paul in contradiction with Paul when he says faith does not abolish Gods' law it establishes Gods' law in Romans 3:31 or that circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing but the keeping of the commandments of God in 1 Corinthians 7:19 or elsewhere when Paul shows that we love our neighbor as ourselves by being obedient to those commandments from Gods' law that show us how we love our fellow man in Romans 13:8-10.

    Paul also shows in Romans 8:1-4 that the righteousness (moral right doing - Psalms 119:172) of the law is fulfilled in us as we walk not in the flesh but in Gods' Spirit (see also Galatians 5:16). Paul does not teach a teaching of lawlessness or that Gods' 10 commandments are abolished anywhere in the bible. He teaches they are established by faith and are a part of Gods 'new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-36 and Ezekiel 36:24-27. It is Paul not me that says that God's law is holy, just and good in Romans 7:12 and that it is God's law that gives us the knowledge of what sin is when broken that is defined as breaking Gods' law in Romans 3:20 and Romans 7:7 and that the purpose of Gods' law is to show us we are all sinners in need of Gods' grace that we can receive through faith as shown in Romans 2:4-29 to Romans 3:1-23 and that faith does not abolish Gods' law, but establishes Gods' law in the lives of all those who believe what Gods' Word says.

    Your interpretation of a single scripture in Romans 7:6 taken away from it's context to apply a meaning that Gods 10 commandments have been abolished has Paul in contradiction with Paul and the rest of the bible. Here let's prove this and add all the context back in first by looking at the previous verse your disregarding. We can have a look at the whole chapter if your interpreted and their connection with Romans 6:1-23 through to Romans 7:1-25 and Romans 8:1-13 in another post if your interested that says the same thing that is being shared with you here, but let's simply start with the immediate scripture context your disregarding again if it might be helpful. Romans 7:1-7 is building on what Paul was talking about in Romans 6:1-23 where he contrasts baptism and the death of the old man of sin or dying to our sinful nature and walking in newness of life. Romans 8:1-13 is building on both Romans 6 and Romans 7 contrasting walking in the Spirit and not in the old man of the flesh that has died so that we can be married to another in Christ. This is all context your disregarding that does not agree with your interpretation of Romans 7:6.

    Take a look...

    Romans 7:1-7
    [1], Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
    [2], For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
    [3], So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
    [4], Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
    [5], For when we were in the FLESH <G4561 Carnal mind or sinful human nature>, the motions of SINS, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit to death.
    [6], But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
    [7], What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust,3 except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

    FROM THE SCRIPTURES ABOVE
    • Paul is speaking to those who understand the law - Romans 7:1
    • The law has dominion over a man as long as we live - Romans 7:1
    • Example of marriage and a woman being bound to her husband as long as she lives - Romans 7:2
    • If the husband dies then she is free to marry another - Romans 7:2-3
    • We are to become dead to the law (of our first husband) by the body of Christ - Romans 7:2-4
    • For when we were in the flesh (first husband sinful nature) the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death - Romans 7:5
    • We are to die to what has bound us which is sin - Romans 7:5-6
    • Dying to that which has bound us (sin and death) we can serve in newness of life of the Spirit - Romans 7:6 compare Galatians 5:16 with Romans 8:1-4 and Romans 8:13.
    • It is through the law of God we have the knowledge of what sin is - Romans 7:7
    The context your disregarding here is that Paul is talking to those who know the law and is saying that before we come to Christ we (those who know the law) are married to the law of sin and death which is working in our members. That is Gods' law reveals sin to us and gives us the knowledge of what sin is when broken. This first husband (sinful nature) must die before we can be married to Christ to walk in His Spirit in newness of life. This agrees with what Paul is talking about already in Romans 6:1-23 where he is talking about the true meaning of "baptism" and dying to the old man of sin so we can walk in newness of life.

    Romans 6:1-7
    [1], What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
    [2], God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? [3], Know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
    [4], Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
    [5], For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
    [6], Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that from now on we should not serve sin.
    [7], For he that is dead is freed from sin.
    [8], Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
    [9], Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dies no more; death has no more dominion over him.
    [10], For in that he died, he died to sin once: but in that he lives, he lives to God.
    [11], Likewise reckon you also yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    [12], Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in the lusts thereof.
    [13], Neither yield you your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin: but yield yourselves to God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
    [14], For sin shall not have dominion over you: for you are not under the law, but under grace.
    [15], What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
    [16], Know you not, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey; whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness?
    [17], But God be thanked, that you were the servants of sin, but you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
    [18], Being then made free from sin, you became the servants of righteousness.

    FROM THE SCRIPTURES ABOVE
    • We are not to continue in sin - Romans 6:1-2
    • We are to be dead to sin - Romans 6:2
    • We baptized into Christs death - Romans 6:3
    • We are buried into Christs death through baptism - Romans 6:4
    • We are to walk in newness of life - Romans 6:4-5
    • Our old man of sin and death is crucified with Christ - Romans 6:6
    • Our old man of sin and death is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that from now on we should not serve sin - Romans 6:6
    • Our old man of sin and death is dead in Christ so we can be freed from sin - Romans 6:6-7
    • Our old man of sin and death is dead with Christ so that we can live with Christ (married to another - Romans 7:1-7) - Romans 6:8
    • We are to reckon ourselves dead indeed to sin, but alive to God through Jesus - Romans 6:11
    • We are not to let sin (breaking God's law) reign in our bodies any longer - Romans 6:12
    • We are to yield ourselves to God as those being alive from the dead - Romans 6:13
    • Sin (breaking Gods' law) is no longer to have dominion over us - Romans 6:14
    • We are made free from sin to become servants of right doing - Romans 6:18
    ................

    CONCLUSION: It is that which binds us that we are released from which is sin that we are to die to not the law so that we can be married to Christ and walk in His Spirit. We are released from the condemnation of sin and death through faith in Gods' Word and by walking in His Spirit in newness of life (Romans 8:1-4). So nope the single scripture you have taken out of it's context in Romans 7:6 as shown above does not teach anywhere that Gods' 10 commandments are abolished. It is teaching that we must be released from the law of sin (breaking God's law) and death that has bound us in order to be married to another (Christ) to walk in newness of life not of the letter but of the Spirit of God.

    May God bless you as you receive his Words of correction
     
  10. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    No one here believes we are not in the new covenant now and that we need to get our righteousness from the law so your scripture here is not relevant to our discussion.
     
  11. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Then you can just overlook my post. No problem.

    Should we take a vote and make you the spokesperson
    to save everyone else all of their keystrokes?
     
  12. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    What did I write in my post that caused you to think I meant that we live in a "sinless world "?

    Does the new testament not say we are free from the bondage/slavery of sin? What does the Cross mean to you?
     
  13. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    That's a lot of sermon.
    Gods new laws are written not in stone, but in men's hearts instead.
    So nobody knows God's will except the person who receives it directly.

    Revelation 2:17
    He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, with a new name written on the stone that no one knows except the one who receives it.’

    1 Peter 2:4
    As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious,

    2 Corinthians 3:3
    And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

    - not with ink
    - not on tablets of stone


    Hebrews 10:16
    “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,”
     
  14. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    No sermonizing just scripture context has been provided that that shows your view that Romans 7:6 is saying that 10 commandments are abolished is not biblical. Please feel free to actually address the post you are quoting from when you have some time if you disagree. Your post here simply ignores what you are quoting from here while posting random scriptures pulled from their context again that also say nowhere that Gods' 10 commandments are abolished. Happy to show you why by adding in the scripture context back in again like the post you are quoting from in regards to Romans 7:6 if you are interested. Are you interested in seeing why the scripture contexts do not match your claims that God's 10 commandments are abolished?
     
  15. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Nothing random here.

    2 Corinthians 3:3
    And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

    - not with ink
    - not on tablets of stone


    Hebrews 10:16
    “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,”

    It's simple math. Heart - (Ink) - (Stone) = Heart

    Ezekiel 11:19
    And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh,

    Heart - (Ink) - (Stone) = Heart

    1 Samuel 16:7
    But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.”
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2022
  16. SabbathBlessings

    SabbathBlessings Well-Known Member Supporter

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    By this statement

    Sin is still prevalent today and growing and won’t be completely defeated until the Second Coming of Jesus on judgement day.

    Jesus died so we can be forgiven of sin when we repent and for sanctification, not to allow us to continue sinning freely. The point of the New Covenant is to have a changed heart (walking in the Spirit) and when someone is transformed they live differently than the people who live in perpetual sin. Sin is the transgression of God’s law 1 John 3:4 and breaking God’s law is what points out sin. Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7 and breaking one of the commandments is like breaking them all. James 2:10-12. In the New Covenant Jesus is our High Priest and Mediator and we can go directly to Him for the forgiveness of sins when one repents. True repentance means you have a changed heart and want to keep God’s laws (not sin). We do not keep God’s law to be saved, we keep God’s law because it is a fruit of a saved person. Revelation 14:12

    God bless
     
  17. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    The existence of the greatest two commandments implies that there are still other commandments that are not the greatest two. If we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit idolatry, theft, murder, adultery, rape, kidnapping, favoritism, and so forth for the other mitzvot of the Torah, so the reason why the greatest two commandments fulfill the other commandments is because they are inclusive of all of the other commandments, which is why Jesus said that all of the other commandments hang on those two.

    The greatest two commandments are a lot easier said than done, so thankfully God gave us all of the other commandments to paint us a picture of what is looks like to correctly obey them. For example, if someone's obedience to the command to love were not inclusive of helping the poor, then they would not be correctly obeying the command to love, so the command to love does not replace the other commandments, but rather it is the essence of them. Someone who lived in obedience to the Torah would look the same as someone who lived in obedience to the greatest two commandments because both would be following the same example of fulfilling the law that Jesus set for us to follow. In Matthew 25:12-14, Jesus said that because of lawlessness the love of many would grow cold, so that undermines the idea that having love means that we don't need to be given the law. If all we needed to be given was the command to love, then God would have only given that command in the first place. In Galatians 6:2, bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, which has nothing to do with replacing it.
     
  18. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Yep random and out of context. So does that mean you would like to see why those scriptures you quote do not say that God's 10 commandments are abolished with the context added back in or not and would you like to discuss them with me?
     
  19. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    I guess you don't know what random means. We have a language barrier. It's not something you get to decide.
     
  20. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    People don't care how much you know till after they know how much you care.
    It's a basic rule of teaching.
     
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