Jesus died as a 21 year old(moved from Traditional Theology)

[AlexDTX]

This should settle the matter:

Luke 3:23a And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age,

Once again, I know, that Jesus was 33 years old when he was crucified. I am saying his appearance was that of a 21 year old.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I respectfully disagree. He was tempted in all things as we are, but he never sinned. He lived a perfect human life. He had compassion all his life. He had emotions just as we did, but no sin nor sickness until sin was put on him on the cross.

How is being sick tied to sin?

 

[AlexDTX]

Don't get me wrong, I am impressed with the study. We should be so dedicated also to following the Creator, as we are to following the created things of this world, or at least have our priorities straight...and that is the problem. The same thing is true of science - giving too much priority to the wrong rocks.

Scott, I agree with you. My reason for posting this thought was to stimulate thought and discussion. We should study the Bible in comparison to the real world we know because all the stories occurred in the real world.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Once again, I know, that Jesus was 33 years old when he was crucified. I am saying his appearance was that of a 21 year old.

Even if that were true, (I see no correlation in the Bible) it's not like there are not millions of people who look young for their age.

 

[AlexDTX]

There's no reason to believe that, hypothetically, had the Lord not suffered on the cross He wouldn't have aged, grown old, in the way that is common to all of us.

The Lord wasn't a super-human. He was human, and He had all the frailties and weaknesses that is common to all of us. The only difference between Christ and us is that He was without sin. But He was still mortal, passable, able to suffer affliction, age, etc. If it were any other way then the Incarnation would be a sham.

As I said already, Aphthartodocetism is heresy. The Lord was passable, because He did not merely bear a similitude to our humanity, He bore our humanity--warts and all.

-CryptoLutheran

I understand your point but it bears further scrutiny. Yes he was human, but he was also super human. Who else do you know that was born with God already in his heart. How many people do you know that walked on water, raised the dead to life, fed multitudes with a few loaves and fishes, and so on? He was not mortal. He was perfect and sinless. Death comes only by sin. He had no sin, therefore the only way he could die was by accepting our sins upon himself. We all die because we are born sinners, he was not.

To say the incarnation would be a sham if he could not, and if I understand you, did not suffer afflictions before the cross, misunderstands our justification. He had to be a perfect sacrifice, to be the second Adam as Paul tells us in Romans 5. As a second Adam does not mean just another man like fallen Adam, but a perfect second Adam as Adam was perfect before his fall. God did not justify Adam. Jesus justified Adam in that he was exactly like Adam in his perfection with the exception of having the eternal Spirit of God in him at birth. This is why Jesus cried, My God, My God why have you forsaken me? on the cross. It was not possible for Jesus to become sin while the eternal Spirit remained in him. God had to leave so Jesus could become sin. Then with sin, Jesus could die.

 

[Albion]

I understand your point but it bears further scrutiny. Yes he was human, but he was also super human.

Maybe that's the crux of the issue. No, he wasn't a superhuman.

He was a human just like you or I, but he was also God. All the wisdom and abilities you are attributing to some 'superhumanness' owe to his having a divine nature.

Who else do you know that was born with God already in his heart. How many people do you know that walked on water, raised the dead to life, fed multitudes with a few loaves and fishes, and so on? He was not mortal.

Exactly as I was saying above.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I understand your point but it bears further scrutiny. Yes he was human, but he was also super human. Who else do you know that was born with God already in his heart. How many people do you know that walked on water, raised the dead to life, fed multitudes with a few loaves and fishes, and so on? He was not mortal. He was perfect and sinless. Death comes only by sin. He had no sin, therefore the only way he could die was by accepting our sins upon himself. We all die because we are born sinners, he was not.

To say the incarnation would be a sham if he could not, and if I understand you, did not suffer afflictions before the cross, misunderstands our justification. He had to be a perfect sacrifice, to be the second Adam as Paul tells us in Romans 5. As a second Adam does not mean just another man like fallen Adam, but a perfect second Adam as Adam was perfect before his fall. God did not justify Adam. Jesus justified Adam in that he was exactly like Adam in his perfection with the exception of having the eternal Spirit of God in him at birth. This is why Jesus cried, My God, My God why have you forsaken me? on the cross. It was not possible for Jesus to become sin while the eternal Spirit remained in him. God had to leave so Jesus could become sin. Then with sin, Jesus could die.

Jesus had much more than God in His heart. Jesus was fully man and fully God.

 

[Dave-W]

Once again, I know, that Jesus was 33 years old when he was crucified. I am saying his appearance was that of a 21 year old.

Not really:

Isaiah 52:14 Just as many were astonished at you, My people, So His appearance was marred more than any man And His form more than the sons of men.

He was so badly beaten before the crucifixion, one could not tell if he was 18 or 80.

 

[AlexDTX]

I became an adult long before I was 21 years old so there is something wrong with your "science." Where does scripture say blemishes, pimples, and moles are caused by sin?

You may have felt like a mature adult before 21, but I speak of physical development only. As for where sickness comes from in the Bible, a distinction needs to be made from acts of sin and sin in the world. In John chapter 5 we have the story of the impotent man who was handicapped for 38 years and could not get into the water to be healed after the angel disturbed the water. Jesus healed him and sin no more unless a worse thing come upon you. In this story, I think he was born handicapped, so this is a case where sin in creation caused his sickness and that, I think is the source of all sickness. This is the source of blemishes, pimples, etc. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God and ate of the tree of knowledge, God told them that the consequence of their sin was that the ground was cursed and would bring thorns and thistles and by the sweat of his brow he would til the Earth. This was not the case in paradise. Now all creation suffered from their sin.

 

[AlexDTX]

I believe that if your premise were true, Jesus would still be an Infant; being fully human in nature meant not only that he aged but that His humanity could die.

By that logic, then, the children born to Adam and Eve if they had not sinned would never have matured? Maturing and aging are not synonyms.

 

[AlexDTX]

You can disagree with anything you want--it doesn't make it any less true. You do not get to make up the rules for what the Jews go by.

http://www.jewfaq.org/whoisjew.htm
"The Torah does not specifically state anywhere that matrilineal descent should be used; however, there are several passages in the Torah where it is understood that the child of a Jewish woman and a non-Jewish man is a Jew, and several other passages where it is understood that the child of a non-Jewish woman and a Jewish man is not a Jew.

Neither does your opinion or belief make is true. What you say here makes my point, not yours.

In Deuteronomy 7:1-5, in expressing the prohibition against intermarriage, G-d says "he [i.e., the non-Jewish male spouse] will cause your child to turn away from Me and they will worship the gods of others." No such concern is expressed about the child of a non-Jewish female spouse. From this, we infer that the child of a non-Jewish male spouse is Jewish (and can therefore be turned away from Judaism), but the child of a non-Jewish female spouse is not Jewish (and therefore turning away is not an issue).

What then of the sin of Baalam? He could not curse Israel during the Exodus so his solution was to pollute Israel by encouraging intermarriage with the pagan women.

Leviticus 24:10 speaks of the son of an Israelite woman and an Egyptian man as being "among the community of Israel" (i.e., a Jew). "

On the other hand, in Ezra 10:2-3, the Jews returning to Israel vowed to put aside their non-Jewish wives and the children born to those wives. They could not have put aside those children if those children were Jews.

You are making my case here.

Several people have written to me asking about King David: was he a Jew, given that one of his female ancestors, Ruth, was not a Jew? This conclusion is based on two faulty premises: first of all, Ruth was a Jew, and even if she wasn't, that would not affect David's status as a Jew. Ruth converted to Judaism before marrying Boaz and bearing Obed. See Ruth 1:16, where Ruth states her intention to convert. After Ruth converted, she was a Jew, and all of her children born after the conversion were Jewish as well. But even if Ruth were not Jewish at the time Obed was born, that would not affect King David's status as a Jew, because Ruth is an ancestor of David's father, not of David's mother, and David's Jewish status is determined by his mother."

Frankly, you are on a rabbit trail irrelevant to my thread topic regarding the appearance of Jesus, so I will not answer anymore on this red herring.

It says "He knew no sin"----not that He did not have the inherited sin nature of a fully human man. It is impossible to be tempted if you do not have the capacity to do what the temptation involves. He just did not sin. He became sin at the cross.
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Think this through further. Adam and Eve were made perfect in the Garden of Eden. They had no sin nature, yet they were tempted and failed. Unless you think God created Adam with a sin nature, in which case, you know nothing about the perfection of God and what He meant after creating everything in saying it is good.

 

[AlexDTX]

How is being sick tied to sin?

As I said to another who asked the same question, there are two aspects of sin. The first is sin in creation, in that all creation is permeated with sin which is why we are born sinners, and the second is the act of sin. For some reason many Christians only think of the act of sin. This is found in a works mentality. Jesus came to redeem creation, us being part of creation, from the permeation of sin in creation. This is why Jesus told his follower who wanted time to go to a funeral, let the dead bury their dead. We are born dead. That seems confusing since we see ourselves alive, but Jesus meant spiritually dead, which, when you compare James statement that the body without the spirit is dead, it means we are already dead at birth. A metaphorical comparison could be like God is the never ending power source of life and we are all rechargeable batteries. While connected to his life, our lives are never ending. But disconnected as we all are at birth our batteries have a limited life charge that will eventually run out and we die. In that sense we are born dead. Sickness is the life charge diminishing and malfunction to our bodies that naturally occur. The question might be raised, why then do born again Christians still die and age? Because the physical world has yet to experience the fullness of Christ's redemption which is why Paul tells us in Romans chapter 8, all creation groans for the redemption of our bodies.

 

[AlexDTX]

Even if that were true, (I see no correlation in the Bible) it's not like there are not millions of people who look young for their age.

Refer to my previous reply to you about the creation not yet fully redeemed. We still await our glorified bodies. I believe that there was no sin in his body. And this is why, after his death, he was resurrected bodily. The sin that came upon him was purged when he was justified in that it was not his sin.

 

[mmksparbud]

Neither does your opinion or belief make is true. What you say here makes my point, not yours.


What then of the sin of Baalam? He could not curse Israel during the Exodus so his solution was to pollute Israel by encouraging intermarriage with the pagan women.


You are making my case here.

Frankly, you are on a rabbit trail irrelevant to my thread topic regarding the appearance of Jesus, so I will not answer anymore on this red herring.


Think this through further. Adam and Eve were made perfect in the Garden of Eden. They had no sin nature, yet they were tempted and failed. Unless you think God created Adam with a sin nature, in which case, you know nothing about the perfection of God and what He meant after creating everything in saying it is good.

How does saying that a Jew is a Jew because of the mother making your point when you disagreed with that?

I disagree with most of what you said. First, being Jewish by the mother was not the case in the time of Christ. This decision by the Rabbi's was made after persecution began in the diaspora because the men were being killed[/QUOTE
You have been proven wrong in this also.
Jesus was not created out of dust by God. Jesus, according to the bible, was born of the seed of Abraham--it is his DNA that is in Him and all the way back to the DNA of Adam as we all have it. He was fully human--and your position had no basis in fact. Being fully human He was subject to ageing, and it's been proven by others on here besides me, it is merely your refusal to comptehend that you have already lost your argument some time ago.

 

[AlexDTX]

Maybe that's the crux of the issue. No, he wasn't a superhuman.

He was a human just like you or I, but he was also God. All the wisdom and abilities you are attributing to some 'superhumanness' owe to his having a divine nature.


Exactly as I was saying above.

Agreed. And with that divine nature he would not have aged since he had no sin.

 

[AlexDTX]

Jesus had much more than God in His heart. Jesus was fully man and fully God.

Agreed. A perfect sinless man.

 

[AlexDTX]

Not really:

Isaiah 52:14 Just as many were astonished at you, My people, So His appearance was marred more than any man And His form more than the sons of men.

He was so badly beaten before the crucifixion, one could not tell if he was 18 or 80.

Agreed, Dave... on the cross, but before the cross during his public ministry I believe he looked younger.

 

[All4Christ]

God told them that the consequence of their sin was that the ground was cursed and would bring thorns and thistles and by the sweat of his brow he would til the Earth. This was not the case in paradise. Now all creation suffered from their sin.

Yes, all of creation suffered from their sin. However, that doesn't mean humanity is guilty of Adam and Eve's sin. The world is corrupted around us and infects us all with sickness, pain, and all the other consequences of the ancestral sin - but it isn't our sin at birth. We choose to follow the temptation of sin and further break our union with God. Jesus did not follow the temptation, though Scripture is clear that He was tempted.

One of the most amazing parts of the Incarnation is that Jesus chose to become just like us, yet did not sin. He chose to not consider His deity something to be grasped, but humbled Himself to be human just like us. By doing so - by fully lowering Himself to regular humanity (while still being fully God), He was able to give us He opportunity to unite with God. It's an amazing thing that He did for us.

 

[All4Christ]

Agreed, Dave... on the cross, but before the cross during his public ministry I believe he looked younger.

He was beaten before the cross.

 

[All4Christ]

Agreed. A perfect sinless man.

Fully a perfect sinless human man - fully like us, with the exception of choosing to not sin (free from personal sin by His choice).