Jesus didn't wash his hands

[Sketcher]

Where at any point did Jesus state that illness is caused by sin? He was going against a teaching of the Jewish leaders that claimed rinsing your hands for a few seconds without soap and flicking the water off was in some way a holy act. Jews today do this ceremonial washing at their Sabbath feasts, not for any physical health benefit, but for spiritual benefit. Jesus was saying that this is bullarky.

It also looks like you're taking the Jewish death penalty out of context. Do you even know what makes for a legal execution in Jewish law, or the extent to which a child has to disrespect his parents before this is a legal option in Jewish law?

 

[BrainInVat]

Here are a couple of other examples of disease being caused by sin:

James 5:14-16

“14Are any among you sick? They should call for the elders of the church and have them pray over them, anointing them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15The prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise them up; and anyone who has committed sins will be forgiven. 16Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed.”

Deuteronomy 28:58-61

“58 If you do not diligently observe all the words of this law that are written in this book, fearing this glorious and awesome name, the LORD your God, 59then the LORD will overwhelm both you and your offspring with severe and lasting afflictions and grievous and lasting maladies.60He will bring back upon you all the diseases of Egypt, of which you were in dread, and they shall cling to you. 61Every other malady and affliction, even though not recorded in the book of this law, the LORD will inflict on you until you are destroyed.”

It also looks like you're taking the Jewish death penalty out of context. Do you even know what makes for a legal execution in Jewish law, or the extent to which a child has to disrespect his parents before this is a legal option in Jewish law?

I already discussed this with VicCrucis. VicCrucis was making the argument that the bar was so high that nobody was actually executed for not honoring their parents. However, that was what Jesus was angry about.

I made a point a while ago and nobody has responded to it yet. If you were to go back in time 2,000 years, wouldn't you tell people about germ theory and that they could prevent diseases by washing their hands? Why didn't Jesus tell people to wash their hands?

 

[Sketcher]

Here are a couple of other examples of disease being caused by sin:

James 5:14-16

“14Are any among you sick? They should call for the elders of the church and have them pray over them, anointing them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15The prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise them up; and anyone who has committed sins will be forgiven. 16Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed.”

Deuteronomy 28:58-61

“58 If you do not diligently observe all the words of this law that are written in this book, fearing this glorious and awesome name, the LORD your God, 59then the LORD will overwhelm both you and your offspring with severe and lasting afflictions and grievous and lasting maladies.60He will bring back upon you all the diseases of Egypt, of which you were in dread, and they shall cling to you. 61Every other malady and affliction, even though not recorded in the book of this law, the LORD will inflict on you until you are destroyed.”

When did Jesus or God the Father or Moses or any other prophet claim that all or most diseases were due to people's sin, or deny germ theory?

I already discussed this with VicCrucis. VicCrucis was making the argument that the bar was so high that nobody was actually executed for not honoring their parents. However, that was what Jesus was angry about.

No, Jesus was not angry that children were not executed by their parents. He was angry about the Pharisees making people's lives more restrictive, yet having less integrity due to their traditions. There's a difference.

I made a point a while ago and nobody has responded to it yet. If you were to go back in time 2,000 years, wouldn't you tell people about germ theory and that they could prevent diseases by washing their hands? Why didn't Jesus tell people to wash their hands?

What obligation did Jesus have to do so?

 

[BrainInVat]

When did Jesus or God the Father or Moses or any other prophet claim that all or most diseases were due to people's sin, or deny germ theory?

I already gave you a quote from Jesus and Deuteronomy, which is supposedly the word of God as written by Moses. As for denying germ theory you need to know about something before you can deny it. The authors of the bible had no idea about germ theory.

No, Jesus was not angry that children were not executed by their parents. He was angry about the Pharisees making people's lives more restrictive, yet having less integrity due to their traditions. There's a difference.

Once again Mark 7:9-13

9 Then he said to them, ‘You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition! 10For Moses said, “Honour your father and your mother”; and, “Whoever speaks evil of father or mother must surely die.” 11But you say that if anyone tells father or mother, “Whatever support you might have had from me is Corban” (that is, an offering to God)— 12then you no longer permit doing anything for a father or mother, 13thus making void the word of God through your tradition that you have handed on. And you do many things like this.’

Originally Posted by BrainInVat
I made a point a while ago and nobody has responded to it yet. If you were to go back in time 2,000 years, wouldn't you tell people about germ theory and that they could prevent diseases by washing their hands? Why didn't Jesus tell people to wash their hands?

What obligation did Jesus have to do so?

The same obligation that anyone who had known about germ theory 2,000 years ago would have had. Jesus maybe healed a few thousand sick people while on Earth. If he had told people to wash their hands he could have prevented millions of people from getting sick in the first place, thus preventing massive suffering, which is the moral obligation of everyone.

 

[intojoy]

Mark 7:1-23

“Now when the Pharisees and some of the scribes who had come from Jerusalem gathered around him, 2they noticed that some of his disciples were eating with defiled hands, that is, without washing them.3(For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, do not eat unless they thoroughly wash their hands, thus observing the tradition of the elders; 4and they do not eat anything from the market unless they wash it; and there are also many other traditions that they observe, the washing of cups, pots, and bronze kettles.) 5So the Pharisees and the scribes asked him, ‘Why do your disciples not live according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with defiled hands?’ 6He said to them, ‘Isaiah prophesied rightly about you hypocrites, as it is written,
“This people honours me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me;
7 in vain do they worship me,
teaching human precepts as doctrines.”
8You abandon the commandment of God and hold to human tradition.’
9 Then he said to them, ‘You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition! 10For Moses said, “Honour your father and your mother”; and, “Whoever speaks evil of father or mother must surely die.” 11But you say that if anyone tells father or mother, “Whatever support you might have had from me is Corban” (that is, an offering to God)— 12then you no longer permit doing anything for a father or mother, 13thus making void the word of God through your tradition that you have handed on. And you do many things like this.’
14 Then he called the crowd again and said to them, ‘Listen to me, all of you, and understand: 15there is nothing outside a person that by going in can defile, but the things that come out are what defile.’
17 When he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about the parable. 18He said to them, ‘Then do you also fail to understand? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile, 19since it enters, not the heart but the stomach, and goes out into the sewer?’ (Thus he declared all foods clean.) 20And he said, ‘It is what comes out of a person that defiles. 21For it is from within, from the human heart, that evil intentions come: fornication, theft, murder, 22adultery, avarice, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, folly. 23All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.’ “

Luke 11:38 has something similar. So Jesus says you don’t need to wash your hands, but you need to kill children who speak ill of their parents. Apparently Jesus didn’t know about germ theory. He thought that illness is caused by sin. I supposed you Christians are going to tell me that Jesus didn’t mean that you don’t need to wash your hands just that it is more important to be moral than to wash your hands, but Jesus actually gives some very flawed reasoning as to why you don’t need to wash your hands.

I'm only going to tell you this once. Yeshua (Jesus) intentionally breaks "Mishnahic Law not Mosaic Law. Try as you may and you will not find this command in the 613 laws of Torah. Why is that significant? It proves that you don't have the skills to study the Word of The Lord correctly. You need help but because of your pre conceptions about the supernatural, you're like a blind man who can't see what's before him. If you really want to discredit the Word's Supernatural Origin, you should humble yourself and investigate the science of biblical interpretation. Then you wouldn't have to bring up nonsensical stuff like hand washing what's next tooth paste?
Your friend
Into sin I mean joy

 

[BrainInVat]

I'm only going to tell you this once. Yeshua (Jesus) intentionally breaks "Mishnahic Law not Mosaic Law. Try as you may and you will not find this command in the 613 laws of Torah. Why is that significant? It proves that you don't have the skills to study the Word of The Lord correctly. You need help but because of your pre conceptions about the supernatural, you're like a blind man who can't see what's before him. If you really want to discredit the Word's Supernatural Origin, you should humble yourself and investigate the science of biblical interpretation. Then you wouldn't have to bring up nonsensical stuff like hand washing what's next tooth paste?
Your friend
Into sin I mean joy

This is not relevant. My issue with this passage is not that Jesus breaks Mosaic Law. My issue with this passage is that Jesus' disciples didn't wash their hands, and Jesus thought that was fine.

 

[intojoy]

This is not relevant. My issue with this passage is not that Jesus breaks Mosaic Law. My issue with this passage is that Jesus' disciples didn't wash their hands, and Jesus thought that was fine.

I thought once I was married I didn't need to brush my teeth anymore

 

[BrainInVat]

I thought once I was married I didn't need to brush my teeth anymore

?

 

[intojoy]

?

Joke bro

 

[intojoy]

 

[Hospes]

This is not relevant. My issue with this passage is not that Jesus breaks Mosaic Law. My issue with this passage is that Jesus' disciples didn't wash their hands, and Jesus thought that was fine.

LOL. You are the first person I have ever known to find a deeper message in Jesus not meeting and supporting adequate hygiene. To add more to your concerns: Jesus did not encourage flossing, probably did not insist others bathe as much as we do in our culture, and - I am pretty certain - was not concerned with his or his disciples intake of saturated fats.

 

[lesliedellow]

I supposed you Christians are going to tell me that Jesus didn’t mean that you don’t need to wash your hands

Like all the new atheists, you are very boring. Jesus was criticising the ostentatious piety of the Pharisees, which went well beyond the ritual washings prescribed by the Mosaic law.

 

[Sketcher]

I already gave you a quote from Jesus and Deuteronomy, which is supposedly the word of God as written by Moses. As for denying germ theory you need to know about something before you can deny it. The authors of the bible had no idea about germ theory.

Where did the Lord claim in Deuteronomy that all or most of their diseases would be due to sin? Disease as punishment does not constitute all or most diseases overall, if you need a hint.

Once again Mark 7:9-13

9 Then he said to them, ‘You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition! 10For Moses said, “Honour your father and your mother”; and, “Whoever speaks evil of father or mother must surely die.” 11But you say that if anyone tells father or mother, “Whatever support you might have had from me is Corban” (that is, an offering to God)— 12then you no longer permit doing anything for a father or mother, 13thus making void the word of God through your tradition that you have handed on. And you do many things like this.’

Which does not support your claim or go against mine. Jesus was upset with their modifying the Law to give more of an appearance of piety and less actual devotion to God in this case. There is nothing in the context to reasonably support the claim that Jesus was upset because children weren't getting stoned to death. It is clear from both the content and context of this passage that Jesus was upset with the twisting of the Law instead.

The same obligation that anyone who had known about germ theory 2,000 years ago would have had. Jesus maybe healed a few thousand sick people while on Earth. If he had told people to wash their hands he could have prevented millions of people from getting sick in the first place, thus preventing massive suffering, which is the moral obligation of everyone.

Why would Jesus have had any obligation to tell people to wash their hands before meals in dirty water without soap, as they were already doing? Jews today admit that the ceremonial washing that they do before Sabbath meals is medically useless, and they use running water today.

 

[intojoy]

How do we know any son was ever stoned to death in accordance with the Law? I don't think I would risk stealing from that cookie jar. But honestly do we have ANY source that sites an example that we could look at and perhaps come along side of BV and stew on it? I never cared before but id like to know.

 

[BrainInVat]

Disease as punishment does not constitute all or most diseases overall, if you need a hint.

Exodus 15:26

26He said, ‘If you will listen carefully to the voice of the LORD your God, and do what is right in his sight, and give heed to his commandments and keep all his statutes, I will not bring upon you any of the diseases that I brought upon the Egyptians; for I am the LORD who heals you.’

I guess you could argue that people, who follow the commandments, could still get diseases that the Egyptians did not. In any case my point is still valid as long as the bible claims that some diseases were caused by sin, which it does, and never mentions germ theory, which it doesn’t. My main point is that Jesus displays a lack of knowledge of germ theory. If Jesus thought the ritual washing performed by Jews was inadequate for hygienic purposes he could have said so and instructed people how to be hygienic. Instead he says some nonsense about everything you eat going out into the sewer and the one who made the outside also making the inside.

Which does not support your claim or go against mine. Jesus was upset with their modifying the Law to give more of an appearance of piety and less actual devotion to God in this case. There is nothing in the context to reasonably support the claim that Jesus was upset because children weren't getting stoned to death. It is clear from both the content and context of this passage that Jesus was upset with the twisting of the Law instead.

I don’t think we are getting anywhere. Let me break it down for you.
9 Then he said to them, ‘You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition! 10For Moses said, “Honour your father and your mother”; and, “Whoever speaks evil of father or mother must surely die.”

Jesus says that Jews have rejected the death penalty for those who speak evil of their parents.

11But you say that if anyone tells father or mother, “Whatever support you might have had from me is Corban” (that is, an offering to God)— 12then you no longer permit doing anything for a father or mother, 13thus making void the word of God through your tradition that you have handed on.
Jesus states the loophole the Jews use to avoid the death penalty for those who speak evil of their parents, and says that they ignore the word of God by using the loophole to get out of killing disobedient children. Presumably Jesus thinks that rejecting the commandments of God and making void the word of God are bad things. Jesus says the commandment must be followed and that “Whoever speaks evil of father or mother must surely die.”. If you still do not agree I don’t think I can help you.

Why would Jesus have had any obligation to tell people to wash their hands before meals in dirty water without soap, as they were already doing? Jews today admit that the ceremonial washing that they do before Sabbath meals is medically useless, and they use running water today.

Washing without soap is still better than not washing at all. Who said anything about dirty water? Many people of that time did not have had access to clean water, and very few might have had access to soap, but Jesus could have easily done something about that as well. It wasn't just their hands that the Pharisees washed.

3(For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, do not eat unless they thoroughly wash their hands, thus observing the tradition of the elders; 4and they do not eat anything from the market unless they wash it; and there are also many other traditions that they observe, the washing of cups, pots, and bronze kettles.)

Luke 11:39

39Then the Lord said to him, ‘Now you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness.

These two passages do not directly state that Jesus was against dish washing, but I think that it at least suggests that he might have been.
If Jesus wanted to highlight a bad or useless tradition don’t you think that he could have chosen a worse tradition than hand washing? If Jesus wanted to highlight a good law don’t you think he could have chosen a better law than “Whoever speaks evil of father or mother must surely die.”?

 

[Charbel7]

lol.. You are seriously trying to pick a fight. Lets ignore him then.

 

[Sketcher]

Exodus 15:26

26He said, ‘If you will listen carefully to the voice of the LORD your God, and do what is right in his sight, and give heed to his commandments and keep all his statutes, I will not bring upon you any of the diseases that I brought upon the Egyptians; for I am the LORD who heals you.’

I guess you could argue that people, who follow the commandments, could still get diseases that the Egyptians did not. In any case my point is still valid as long as the bible claims that some diseases were caused by sin, which it does, and never mentions germ theory, which it doesn’t. My main point is that Jesus displays a lack of knowledge of germ theory. If Jesus thought the ritual washing performed by Jews was inadequate for hygienic purposes he could have said so and instructed people how to be hygienic. Instead he says some nonsense about everything you eat going out into the sewer and the one who made the outside also making the inside.

Germ theory and hygiene have nothing to do with sin, righteousness, punishment, and blessing. The point of the Mosaic law and what Jesus said have everything to do with the latter, and nothing to do with the former.

I don’t think we are getting anywhere. Let me break it down for you.
9 Then he said to them, ‘You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition! 10For Moses said, “Honour your father and your mother”; and, “Whoever speaks evil of father or mother must surely die.”

Jesus says that Jews have rejected the death penalty for those who speak evil of their parents.

11But you say that if anyone tells father or mother, “Whatever support you might have had from me is Corban” (that is, an offering to God)— 12then you no longer permit doing anything for a father or mother, 13thus making void the word of God through your tradition that you have handed on.
Jesus states the loophole the Jews use to avoid the death penalty for those who speak evil of their parents, and says that they ignore the word of God by using the loophole to get out of killing disobedient children. Presumably Jesus thinks that rejecting the commandments of God and making void the word of God are bad things. Jesus says the commandment must be followed and that “Whoever speaks evil of father or mother must surely die.”. If you still do not agree I don’t think I can help you.

The example Jesus brought up isn't the reasoning they would have used to not execute rebellious sons, so you're wrong about the supposed loophole. Your stance also depends on an interpretation of the commandment that misses the heart of the commandment, which neither Jesus nor his audience would have shared with you. Jesus and Moses agreed, that the father and mother must be honored. Jesus criticized the Pharisees' tradition of putting up false religiosity on the part of the son to get out of honoring his father and mother.

Washing without soap is still better than not washing at all. Who said anything about dirty water? Many people of that time did not have had access to clean water, and very few might have had access to soap, but Jesus could have easily done something about that as well. It wasn't just their hands that the Pharisees washed.

3(For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, do not eat unless they thoroughly wash their hands, thus observing the tradition of the elders; 4and they do not eat anything from the market unless they wash it; and there are also many other traditions that they observe, the washing of cups, pots, and bronze kettles.)

Luke 11:39

39Then the Lord said to him, ‘Now you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness.

These two passages do not directly state that Jesus was against dish washing, but I think that it at least suggests that he might have been.
If Jesus wanted to highlight a bad or useless tradition don’t you think that he could have chosen a worse tradition than hand washing? If Jesus wanted to highlight a good law don’t you think he could have chosen a better law than “Whoever speaks evil of father or mother must surely die.”?

I don't see why Jesus would have needed to, as it has made his point clear for 2,000 years to a lot of people. I'm not sure why you're not getting it or refuse to, I got this point when I was a child, as did many other Christians. The point isn't one's practice in view of what we know today from biology, the point is having integrity with the word of God and your own speech and behavior.

 

[BrainInVat]

I got this point when I was a child, as did many other Christians.

Perhaps that is the problem. Maybe you were told what this passage meant when you were a child, instead of reading it and coming to your own conclusion. Now you are unable to accept the plain text reading of it.

 

[Sketcher]

Perhaps that is the problem. Maybe you were told what this passage meant when you were a child, instead of reading it and coming to your own conclusion. Now you are unable to accept the plain text reading of it.

Or perhaps you fail to interpret the passage correctly, which isn't all that hard to interpret correctly. Perhaps your own anti-Christian bias is distorting what the Bible says to you, causing you to see things which aren't there, and to fail to see what it teaches.

 

[Ambience00]

I am baffled how nobody addressed BrainInVat's question, why Jesus did not take advantage and explained the germ theory, when he could.
And I am quite terrified by Sketcher suggesting that Jesus was not obliged to save innocent children dying from diseases, if he could. Suggesting that he knew better, just like any all-knowing god would, but he didn't intervene, is not the God having mysterious ways anymore. It is saddening.

Why you people cannot see BrainInVat's valid concerns? He is asking you why the omnipotent omniscient God, for communicating the most important message ever, would choose a book, now full of unclear foggy information, containing contradictions, and lacking a clear straightforward message, or commands if you will, such as "Hey guys, actually, this washing of hands is coincidentally a great idea, and here is how it actually works: you know, germs...", which would improve lives of people dramatically.

Surely God should know better, how to actually effectively and unambiguously communicate his most important message to all the people, right?
And all you give BrainInVat is your reinterpretations? More fog?
Or even accusations for picking a fight?
I am disappointed