Jesus didn't institute a church

[groktruth]

The only bit I personally disagree with is the "church buildings" are not neccesary. One can just as easily meet in a persons home or community hall or park. location is not relevant it is the gathering of believers as you said that is important. Or did I misunderstand what you meant?

The scriptures discourage us generally from "searching (them), thinking that in them we have eternal life" ("will know the one true God"). They point us to "living by every word that proceeds from" God's mouth, that is, by prophetic or spiritual guidance, asking for wisdom and going by what is given by the Spirit.

But not in the case of the church, where we are told explicitily to "not (go) even think beyond what is written." (1 Corinth 1:10-4:6). Church buildings are not written, and names are actually explicitly forbidden (vs 1:12). Doing otherwise, called "defiling" the temple of God (vss 3:16-17), is identified as a sin unto destruction or death.

Most "believers" do just the opposite. They make rules and doctrines of life based on what "scripture says," instead of using the spiritual gift of prophecy. Then they build their church doctrines and budgets based on "leadings" ("we felt that God was leading us...") implying spiritual guidance, ignoring biblical directives (e.g. 1 Corinth 14:30-31).

When I ask God about this, He tells me that I am seeing His spirit of delusion at work, where the gathering of the tares for burning (i.e. groups that build up "their" churches--their words!) appears to be His church. It is not, but it deludes the undiscerning. Meanwhile, His (true) church awaits His gathering into His barn. These are fruitful believers longing to be "assembled" or "jointed" in authoritative relationships (Hebrews 13:17), forming as they come together a body, organic instead of organized.

Crying our for discernment? (Prov 2:2). Might want to think about it. Many are called, few are chosen. But who knows how many are forsaken?

 

[TheDag]

It is not about Bill Gothard. It is about the commands of christ. "Believers" who "keep" them (study, learn, meditate over, ask God about, then listen and record what He says) are believers. "Believers" who don't are "liars and the truth is not in them." They will have their part in the lake of fire, and believers are instructed to avoid them.

Are you sure you did not misunderstand what jesusiam meant? After all going from the punctuation he could easily have meant yes I agree with what you said about bill gothard. he did not neccesarily mean it was about bill gothard

 

[CryptoLutheran]

The only bit I personally disagree with is the "church buildings" are not neccesary. One can just as easily meet in a persons home or community hall or park. location is not relevant it is the gathering of believers as you said that is important. Or did I misunderstand what you meant?

Given that Christians didn't start building structures for the explicit purpose of worship for the first 2 and a half or 3 centuries, I think it's a valid point that "church buildings" aren't "necessary". Though it's also worth pointing out how during the time Christians gathered in homes--usually villas large enough to fit the number of people necessary--those homes were organized in such a way to fit the needs of the Faithful, an excellent example of this is the Dura-Europos church from the 3rd century.

I think there's value in designated sacred space. I believe we can "do Church" anywhere, but setting aside space for liturgy, space specifically consecrated for the purpose of worship, to receive the Word and Sacraments, is really important. Much theological could potentially be said about it, but even just from a practical stand point, having a designated space for worship gives permanence and rhythm to our worship--it's like a home for the gathered Faithful, a place to figuratively take your shoes off and rest.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[groktruth]

Are you sure you did not misunderstand what jesusiam meant? After all going from the punctuation he could easily have meant yes I agree with what you said about bill gothard. he did not neccesarily mean it was about bill gothard

Good point! Let's agree in prayer that any spirit of confusion will not operate here, so we understand one another better. And, that we are patient and forgiving with one another while the prayer is being answered.

 

[papaJP]

When we get beyond the buildings and the organization of the worship service we can find the true church. I have long used this expression as a point of reference to help believers keep things in perspective. No church or congregation or group of believers is perfect. As soon as a person including myself enters the congregation it is impossible for it to be perfect. None of us have all the truth and no congregation or group of believers have all the truth. We must spend our time seeking God and what He wants us to be and carefully assist others who seem to be seeking or have a problem being able to center on God and what He wants us to be. If we understand that the group of believers or congregation is only helpful is limited ways and avoid allowing them to interfer with our relationship with God then we are seeking the balance necessary to be a godly servant.
Do not follow any doctrine not from God or interpretation or tradition totally. Seek God and His filling of His Holy Spirit and we will if we are willing to listen and not try to lead be fruitful.

 

[Woldeyesus]

the word Church, when interpolated into the text, is in error.

Ekklesia, is NOT church. Ekklesia is an assembly.

When you look at the scriptures in this light, you can see much more clearly the truth of the matter.

Matt.16
[18] And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my (assembly of believers), and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.

so, the powerr of death will not prevail against Gods children. A wonderful promise! And it completely does away with the notion that He ever promised an error free institution.

Matt.18
[17] If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the (assembly of believers); and if he refuses to listen even to the (assembly of believers) let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.


another instance that flies in the face of authority of one orginization! We are to take them to the assembly of believers. NOT a church.

it really chages the claim that Jesus instituted the EO or RCC church, doesn't it!

No questions and no challenges at all! (for the first time)

I accept and personally confirm the "church", in principle and practce, as the demo. and takeaway immortality of Christ whom "not even death will ever be able to overcome" (Matt. 16:18; 27: 50-56 with underlining for emphasis).

 

[groktruth]

When we get beyond the buildings and the organization of the worship service we can find the true church. I have long used this expression as a point of reference to help believers keep things in perspective. No church or congregation or group of believers is perfect. As soon as a person including myself enters the congregation it is impossible for it to be perfect. None of us have all the truth and no congregation or group of believers have all the truth. We must spend our time seeking God and what He wants us to be and carefully assist others who seem to be seeking or have a problem being able to center on God and what He wants us to be. If we understand that the group of believers or congregation is only helpful is limited ways and avoid allowing them to interfer with our relationship with God then we are seeking the balance necessary to be a godly servant.
Do not follow any doctrine not from God or interpretation or tradition totally. Seek God and His filling of His Holy Spirit and we will if we are willing to listen and not try to lead be fruitful.

Amen! The good news is that the bad news, that we all fall short of the glory of God, is fixed. The consequences of our failure are attributed to the evil one, and undone. "It's not we who sin, but sin in us." That is, if, and only if, we agree that the law is good. Moreover, through the edifying work of the church, each day we are a bit less unprofitable to God.

And, as you note, the church is a part of the Kingdom, which increases through leavening, each one teach one, as Dr. Laubach taught. For good or evil, though! The leaven of the Pharisees (hypocrisy), the leaven of the Sadducees (spiritless, uncharismatic), and the leaven of Herod (political motivation and power) Jesus warned us would try to infect the assembly, and have. So, to make the seed fruitful, 30, 60, 100 fold, we have to form joints of leavening with trustworthy elders. Through such joints healing and growth of the church increase. Preaching and committee decisions are baking powder, puffing up the group without leavening.

 

[Woldeyesus]

Amen! The good news is that the bad news, that we all fall short of the glory of God, is fixed. The consequences of our failure are attributed to the evil one, and undone. "It's not we who sin, but sin in us." That is, if, and only if, we agree that the law is good. Moreover, through the edifying work of the church, each day we are a bit less unprofitable to God.

And, as you note, the church is a part of the Kingdom, which increases through leavening, each one teach one, as Dr. Laubach taught. For good or evil, though! The leaven of the Pharisees (hypocrisy), the leaven of the Sadducees (spiritless, uncharismatic), and the leaven of Herod (political motivation and power) Jesus warned us would try to infect the assembly, and have. So, to make the seed fruitful, 30, 60, 100 fold, we have to form joints of leavening with trustworthy elders. Through such joints healing and growth of the church increase. Preaching and committee decisions are baking powder, puffing up the group without leavening.

In the context of Christ's agenda, there is neither institutional church nor any more place-specific worship (Jer. 31: 31-34; John 4: 21-26; Matt. 26: 26-29). The self-revelation of Christ, built in his perfect and transfigurative death on the cross, i.e., the "tree of life", is the "church" (Ibid, 16: 13-28; 26:64; 27: 50-56).

That is why the Apostle John wrote "I did not see a temple in the city, because its temple is the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb" (Rev. 21:22).

 

[groktruth]

In the context of Christ's agenda, there is neither institutional church nor any more place-specific worship (Jer. 31: 31-34; John 4: 21-26; Matt. 26: 26-29). The self-revelation of Christ, built in his perfect and transfigurative death on the cross, i.e., the "tree of life", is the "church" (Ibid, 16: 13-28; 26:64; 27: 50-56).

That is why the Apostle John wrote "I did not see a temple in the city, because its temple is the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb" (Rev. 21:22).

Great Post! Thank you.

 

[Woldeyesus]

Great Post! Thank you.

Welcome and God bless you!

 

[TheDag]

PS The Church referred to in Matthew 16:18 is the EOC (Orthodox Church).

That might be your opinion but I'm sure RC disagree. Are we turning this into another I'm the only one with the truth threads? So where is the EO church located? Which particular church that follows the particular practice. Or have all the EO's I've spoken to been telling lies? (I don't think they have) Your claims make no sense in light of what the EO's say.

 

[groktruth]

That might be your opinion but I'm sure RC disagree. Are we turning this into another I'm the only one with the truth threads? So where is the EO church located? Which particular church that follows the particular practice. Or have all the EO's I've spoken to been telling lies? (I don't think they have) Your claims make no sense in light of what the EO's say.

Remember that the psalmist wrote, "in my haste, I said that all men are liars." Solomon said that he could find only one man in a thousand that he thought was trustworthy. The devil works by making men drone liars, individuals who believe the lies that the devil is having them speak. In their deception, they make much more effective disseminaters of the lies. Few people take the necessary steps needed to keep from being used by the devil this way, hence the psalmist's complaint.

The true church is discerned by it's fruit, it's success is overcoming the gates of Hell. There are lots of phoney churches, "synogogues of Satan." Fruit, in scripture, is most strongly associated with love, which is defined as "keeping the commandments." But, multiplication is relevant, as long as increase is itself fruitful. Jesus led us to expect new converts to ultimately produce between 30 to 100 converts themselves.

As the light of the world, the true church ought to be hard to miss. But, using the specified criteria, I have never seen any group that meets the definition or test of the "true" church. Nor have I met many "disciples," that meet the Lord's description of discipleship, who look like anyone who would even be interested in the true church. I relate to Chesterton's quote:

"It is not that Christianity has been tried and found wanting, but that it has been found difficult, and never tried."

It is actually hard for me to even get my hopes up when someone claims that they have found or are a part of, the church that Jesus is building. I suspect He is waiting for someone to truly commit to His gospel, so He has members to assemble. The "imperfect" church makes sense, but not an assembly that is working on a different vision. His people perish for a lack of knowledge, "without a vision,..." etc. In any case, perfect or imperfect (but covered by grace), the church ought to meet the specifications for effectiveness and light. None I have heard of do.

 

[Woldeyesus]

No, The Bible doesn't prove in the word "ecclesia" that Jesus Christ didn't found a church. He did found "the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Timothy 3:15). This very foundation, the church, which is the basis of the Christian Gospel being preached, is the Body of Christ against which the very gates of hell (mouths of heretics) shall not prevail, so said our LORD GOD and Saviour, Jesus Christ. In Matthew 16:18. God bless all of us and save us. In Erie PA USA Scott Harrington
PS The Church referred to in Matthew 16:18 is the EOC (Orthodox Church).

As if the mystery involved in firsthand knowledge of Jesus Christ is not strange enough, centuries of teaching based on Christian theology has dulled contemporary ears to consider seriously the given timeless hard proof.

The immediate and larger CONTEXT of Matt. 16:18 makes very clear that "my church" exclusively refers to Christ's own divine identity and absolute authority, which "not even death will ever be able to overcome": as testified by the lives and witnesses of Moses and Elijah (Ibid, 17: 1-13; Luke 9: 28-36), powerfully confirmed by acutal demonstration of Christ's self-revelation (Ibid, 27: 50-56), recapitulated during 40-day rehearsals for unbelieving disciples (Acts. 1:1-5) and finally applied on a large-scale (Acts 2), etc.

 

[Sphinx777]

​

 

[groktruth]

Love is the key that unlocks the mysteries of the universe


True, but remember,

The way of evil, according to Proverbs 2, begins with perverting and twisting the meaning of words. So, the devil works hardest at getting us to think differently about love than God thinks. How might we know when we have got it right?

 

[Goinheix]

the word Church, when interpolated into the text, is in error.

Ekklesia, is NOT church. Ekklesia is an assembly.

When you look at the scriptures in this light, you can see much more clearly the truth of the matter.

Matt.16
[18] And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my (assembly of believers), and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.

so, the powerr of death will not prevail against Gods children. A wonderful promise! And it completely does away with the notion that He ever promised an error free institution.

Matt.18
[17] If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the (assembly of believers); and if he refuses to listen even to the (assembly of believers) let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.


another instance that flies in the face of authority of one orginization! We are to take them to the assembly of believers. NOT a church.

it really chages the claim that Jesus instituted the EO or RCC church, doesn't it!

Yes. And the same is to any human organization using the designation of Church. Those churches are not the assembly we read on the NT when we read "church". And the same is with the world "pastor". In the NT, a pastor is not somebody graduated from a seminary, having a diploma and being in charge of a so called church.

 

[TheDag]

Yes. And the same is to any human organization using the designation of Church. Those churches are not the assembly we read on the NT when we read "church". And the same is with the world "pastor". In the NT, a pastor is not somebody graduated from a seminary, having a diploma and being in charge of a so called church.

True but there definitrly was leaders of the church. So while they didn't graduate from seminary in biblical times I see nothing wrong with people doing so. Depending on the denomination it is easy to get involved without going to seminary.

 

[Goinheix]

True but there definitrly was leaders of the church. So while they didn't graduate from seminary in biblical times I see nothing wrong with people doing so. Depending on the denomination it is easy to get involved without going to seminary.

My point is: when come to discuss the duty, authority, rights, etc of a modern pastor; we tend to go, read the NT and wrongly believe that the pastor mentioned in the NT is the pastor of our church. It just happens that both are named pastor, but they are two different things. In spanish (my lenguage) that is call "omonimo": two different things with the same name.

Again: the pastors in the NT were leaders, but not a leader necesarelly is a pastor. Today pastors are profesionals hored for an organizatioon. It could happens that one of those profesionals being a good NT. It cold happens; that is all.

 

[groktruth]

My point is: when come to discuss the duty, authority, rights, etc of a modern pastor; we tend to go, read the NT and wrongly believe that the pastor mentioned in the NT is the pastor of our church. It just happens that both are named pastor, but they are two different things. In spanish (my lenguage) that is call "omonimo": two different things with the same name.

Again: the pastors in the NT were leaders, but not a leader necesarelly is a pastor. Today pastors are profesionals hored for an organizatioon. It could happens that one of those profesionals being a good NT. It cold happens; that is all.

Don't go away! We need you.