Jesus didn't institute a church

xristos.anesti

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Word ekklesia means Church.

The word 'church' in the New Testament is translated from the Greek word 'ekklesia' which comes from two words 'ek' meaning 'out' and 'kaleo' meaning to 'call.' An ekklesia or 'calling out' was not just an assembly. The words agora and paneguris as well as heorte, koinon, thiasos, sunagoge and sunago can all mean an assembly. The word ekklesia was a political term, not a religious term. Jesus was the King and the Bible used the term ekklesia for a good reason. In classical Greek "ekklesia" meant "an assembly of citizens summoned by the crier, the legislative assembly."

Do not try to mold the languague to what you think, mould what you think to what is said.

Also, if the Greeks, who speak Greek, say it means Church - it means Church.

Christ is the Head of the Church not Churches, people holding same faith not different oppinionins - He founded THE CHURCH, One Church.

Simple.

;)
 
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repentant

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Protestants can't believe that their is authority with in the Church, they can't. How else can they defend there differences of opinion? But in ignoring structure, authority and hierarchy, they ignore Scripture..so much for their sola scriptura..
 
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heymikey80

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Dropping the presumption of what "church" is, Jesus instituted a church -- a gathering of the people of Christ.

That appears in local physical gatherings, true, but it is also referred to as (one) "church" meaning everyone of the people of Christ. Cf the use of the term in Acts 9:31, Gal 1:13, Ep 1:22, 3:10, 5:25,27, Pp 3:6, Col 1:18, :24, Heb 12:23, and some of the references to "the Bride" of Christ.

Many Protestants do accept authority (and indeed Scriptural structure) within the church -- but we accept it as it's given in many other institutions God has made. Authority, but not infallible; authority, but derived; authority, but limited. I'm sure churches in Orthodoxy do as well, though there are differences.
 
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Rightglory

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Heymikey80,

How well does your understanding, theology, and interpretation align with that of the Early Church?
I have taken your list of texts, given some of the text with them below.

Act 9:31: These are congregations who are assemblies, an ekklessia in a particular geographic location.

Gal 1:13 " I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it": here Paul is using the whole Church, the Body of Christ as his reference. Because he was persecuting members, specific members who were believers and members of the Body of Christ.

Eph 1:22 "He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church. This is the reference that Christ is head of His Church, the Body of Christ..." It is this same Authority, all authority given to Him that He, Christ, passes on to the Church in the visible form of the disciples, then Apostles.

Eph 3:10 "wisdom of God might be made kn own by the church to the principalities and the powers in the heavenly places." Not only did men not know of God's mystery in vs 5 neither did the angels. they hear it form men, the church. This is so because as we know from Col 1:20-25 that all things were reconciled in Christ who now is that Body of which He is Head. Christ's Incarnation affects all elements of His creation from material to the immaterial. The united, renewed humanity made possible by Christ is the bvasis of the reeconciliation of the heavens and the earth. The Church exists physically here on earth and in heaven by virtue of Christ Resurrection and exaltation. v 11.

Eph 5:25, 27 - A little long to repeat here but the whole context must be taken here from vs 22 - 33. This ties in with the Eucharist, the sharing of Christ Body and Blood, the very life of Christ. We become one flesh with Christ. It is an organic, ontological existance that believers have in the Body of Christ here on earth. It is the very extension of His Incarnation. along with I Cor 12:18-30.

Phil 3:6 - the use here of church is the whole Body.

Col 1:18 "He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn of the dead.
Again the whole Body, but the full reconciliation of the world into Christ by His Incarnation.v 20.

Col 1:24 is referencing the whole body, the church.

Heb 12:23 - this is the heavenly, triumphant part of the Body of Christ with whom we worship every Sunday in sharing the Eucharist within the Body of Christ. We are all gathered before His heavenly alter.

In referencing Calvinsim I have not really ever heard or read any kind of theology that actually developed the mythical, spiritual church that constitutes for Calvinist and most other protestants as well, the Body of Christ.
In all of these texts we can gather that the Body of Christ follows both the Christologial, Incarnational meaning and Trinitarian meaning. We will need to use other texts for this as well.
Trinitarian means One God, but three distinct Persons. One Essence but Three Persons. We know also from Paul that he uses this terminology and understanding in describing how each individual in the church is yet ONE Body.Rom 12:4. Thus each congregation is also of the same structure, each congregation is a complete, whole representation the Body of Christ, it comprises the three essential elements, at least one lay member, a bishop and Christ, this is the use of the word "catholic" meaning whole, complete. Thus again Trinitarian, many make ONE.
That Body is also Incarnational. Christ is both God and man. The Church the Body of Chrsit is made up of human beings, members and each assembly meets as the House of God, the Church around Christ, who is the Head of that Body and we share the Body and Blood of Christ in the Eucharist. The unity lies in the Eucharist which is Christ. Now go to the four-fold prayer of Christ in John 17. The unity Christ prays for His Church in vs 20-23 you will see that the unity of the Body of Christ is precisely as that of the Trinity- that of Christ with the Father. So there is a combination of both Divine and Human that constitutes the Church on earth through the Incarnation.
Now once we have established that there is such a thing as a physical church on earth and it is in fact the very Body of Christ, assembled where ever as long as they have the three elements present to constitute the Body in corporate existance, physically, they also have powers and responsibilities that Christ has given to those in authority, the bishop, in particular and are gathered in His name around the Eurcharist, the Body of Christ is present and Christ Himself is present here on earth - Incarnational, organic and ontological.
Thus we find that the Church, the Body of Christ is Christ Himself, of which we are members existing in His very Body. Sharing in the very life of Christ. That is the meaning of being IN Christ. It is real and internal. It is not external or anterior. There is nothing mythical about it, it is visible but it surely is a mystery. It is foremost not an organization since we are united in the Eucharist, not some organization. That is not to say that either a church or a group of churches does not have some organization about them, but that in itself, does not consitute the Body of Christ.
When the scripture says that a man should bring his differences to the Church, he knows where to go. That the Church, the ekklessia itself is the guardian of Truth because Truth is Christ and Christ is the Church. He is the Body of which He is the Head, of which we are members within that body. Thus the Body is what is infallible because Truth cannot change and Christ is not fallible. he preserves His Body and His Truth, the Gospel within Himself.
Now, please explain just how close is Calvinism, in faith, in practice and theology is to this understanding. An understanding that has existed since the Apostles themselves and has indeed been preserved by the Holy Spirit. That preservation is attested in reality in this world historically as embodied in the Orthodox Church. A Church that is united not by organization but by faith, practice and in communion around the Eucharist. The very Body and Blood of Christ, the very life of Christ. If you do not partake of me, you have no life in me. I Cor 10:17; John 6:51-59.
Do you qualify?
The only other authority Christ gave was to secular authorities, governments. They do not resemble His Body, nor have the same authority.
I'm sure churches in Orthodoxy do as well, though there are differences
I don't know of a single one. Might you give an example, if you have one.
Authority, but not infallible; authority, but derived; authority, but limited.
this is as remote from scripture as one can get. How can Christ not be infallible, how is He limited? And the only one you are correct in, is that Christ recieved ALL authority in heaven and earth from the Father. But he also gave it those in authoriity here on earth in His Body of whom He controlls by His authority and the work of the Holy Spirit. This is precisely why the Church has never placed interpretation in the hands of men, surely a single man, has not even given revelation to a single individual, nor authority even in a group as a Council. It is all retained by Him through the Body, of which He is Head. That is why it is the Rule of Faith, that which is from the beginning.
 
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IamAdopted

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Jesus did not come to institute a Chruch. He came preaching truth and salvation through Him. Sent the Apostles to do the same. When He is believed upon those who believe upon Him are the Church. For the Church is HIS body. Not an institution.
 
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heymikey80

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In referencing Calvinsim I have not really ever heard or read any kind of theology that actually developed the mythical, spiritual church that constitutes for Calvinist and most other protestants as well, the Body of Christ.
In all of these texts we can gather that the Body of Christ follows both the Christologial, Incarnational meaning and Trinitarian meaning. We will need to use other texts for this as well.
So what are you saying? That you can't see what is quite clear from the text themselves referencing the Church in the ways they're expressed in Westminster? Not really a wonder to me, that a combative Orthodox advocate will find a bone to pick with any other church just so he can say it's not perfect. :sorry:
Trinitarian means One God, but three distinct Persons. One Essence but Three Persons. We know also from Paul that he uses this terminology and understanding in describing how each individual in the church is yet ONE Body.Rom 12:4. Thus each congregation is also of the same structure, each congregation is a complete, whole representation the Body of Christ, it comprises the three essential elements, at least one lay member, a bishop and Christ, this is the use of the word "catholic" meaning whole, complete.
That reference essentially says we're connected to one another in one body of the local Church, "everyone among you". However, were what you said true, wouldn't you be forced to agree that this local church would then be ... inerrant -- according to what you said on a recent thread in Soteriology? Or is the Church not "whole, complete"?

The only other authority Christ gave was to secular authorities, governments. They do not resemble His Body, nor have the same authority.
I don't know of a single one. Might you give an example, if you have one.
Did the Church from the very beginning acknowledge the authority of elders? Or do you deny the authority of your elder?
this is as remote from scripture as one can get. How can Christ not be infallible, how is He limited? And the only one you are correct in, is that Christ recieved ALL authority in heaven and earth from the Father. But he also gave it those in authoriity here on earth in His Body of whom He controlls by His authority and the work of the Holy Spirit. This is precisely why the Church has never placed interpretation in the hands of men, surely a single man, has not even given revelation to a single individual, nor authority even in a group as a Council. It is all retained by Him through the Body, of which He is Head. That is why it is the Rule of Faith, that which is from the beginning.
Then if Christ is inerrant, and individual Churches are wholly the Body of Christ, each is inerrant.

We're the Body of Christ because we rely in Christ Jesus through the One Spirit, and through that reliance we do what He commands, learn His will, live His life in us. We're in union with Christ. We're errant because we're not in all ways relying on Christ, nor doing what He commands, nor always even aware of what He wills. The Church is thus errant as its members are not in all ways relying on Christ -- and the Church is composed of members who are thus errant.
 
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Rightglory

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Heymikey80,

So what are you saying? That you can't see what is quite clear from the text themselves referencing the Church in the ways they're expressed in Westminster? Not really a wonder to me, that a combative Orthodox advocate will find a bone to pick with any other church just so he can say it's not perfect.
I thought you contended there was only ONE church, yet you keep mentioning all these other churches.
That reference essentially says we're connected to one another in one body of the local Church, "everyone among you". However, were what you said true, wouldn't you be forced to agree that this local church would then be ... inerrant -- according to what you said on a recent thread in Soteriology? Or is the Church not "whole, complete"?
The only other authority Christ gave was to secular authorities, governments. They do not resemble His Body, nor have the same authority.
Not at all. Each and every member is not the Church itself. If one member, with Christ present and the bishop, it is still the Body of Christ. If all, including the bishop, then they are no longer the church. They have excised themselves from the Body, as any believer does individually. This is precisely what John wrote in Revelation to the Churches, the specific Churches listed. A Church can be excised, just as a member can to save the Body.
You mentioned the Arian controversy which lasted almost 400 years and at one time did include well over half of all Christians at that time. But the Body is much larger than that. Eventually those that did remain faithful to the faith once given, the faith of their forefathers who are also part of that Body of Christ who lived before them.

Did the Church from the very beginning acknowledge the authority of elders? Or do you deny the authority of your elder?
Absolutely. And when that elder becomes wayward, as did several bishops throughout history, we can wall them off and they will be dealt with by other elders, bishops.
The authority that Christ received from the Father, bestowed upon the Apostles, is not a delegated authority but a shared authority. The Holy Spirit is indwelt and abides in all members of that Body. All are led to the Truth. The Bishops have a special, consecrated authority and obligation, but it has been many times in the history of the Church that a laymen preserved and defended the Truth.
Thus communion is the highest authority in the Church. That communion is held in unity through the Eucharist. It is sharing in the Life of Christ. It is sharing His Body and His Blood.
It is real, it is organic and ontological. Above all it is a mystery.
At every eucharist the whole Christ is present, not just a part of Him. Christ is not more present in the eucharist at Moscow, or Chicago, or Constantinople or anywhere His Church is gathered in His name.
Essentially, what makes the Church the Church, what makes it a "fullness" is founded in Christ and union with Him. In essence, even if it was just Christ and one other person, that would be the fullness of the Church because that is where Christ is. Being united to Christ is the foundation for what the Church is. It is not the individuals which make the Church the Church, it is Christ and individuals unite to Christ to become part of the Church. Then if one member gets spiritually sick then the Church works with that person to help them find spiritual health, and if that doesn't work they are eventually cut off. If a whole congregation, a whole region, as history shows they will be cut off. If not by the visible Church now, they will be by the Lord on the Last Day.
That is why the Church is inerrant. It is Christ.
 
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kepha31

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Jesus said that the unity of Christians would be objective evidence to the world that He had been sent by God (John 17:20-23). How can the world see an invisible "unity" that exists only in the hearts of believers?


Hebrews 13:17 says, "Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you."
What is the expiration date of this verse?


How do anti-church nondenominational cults, which have their own distinct theology, and often boast that they are “separated,” obey God’s command that Christians “all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment” (1 Cor. 1:10)?
 
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IamAdopted

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Jesus was not a denomitation but Lord God all mighty. Have you not read this.
Joh 4:19 The woman *said to Him, "Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet.
Joh 4:20 "Our fathers worshiped in this mountain, and you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship."
Joh 4:21 Jesus *said to her, "Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.
Joh 4:22 "You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.
Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
Joh 4:24 "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
Joh 4:25 The woman *said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us."
Joh 4:26 Jesus *said to her, "I who speak to you am He."

We shall know whom belong to the Lord by their love. We are in Christ and Christ is in us through the Holy Spirit and not through a denomination. He came preaching Truth and Life through believing in Him that means putting your full trust and reliance in Him. Those who believe Him are given eternal life. We are always to obey our governing leaders as what the Pharasee's that sat in Moses seat were at that time. We can even see this in the Epistles. Unless of course they ask us to disobey God then we are to obey God and not man.
 
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kepha31

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We shall know whom belong to the Lord by their love. We are in Christ and Christ is in us through the Holy Spirit and not through a denomination. He came preaching Truth and Life through believing in Him that means putting your full trust and reliance in Him. Those who believe Him are given eternal life. We are always to obey our governing leaders as what the Pharasee's that sat in Moses seat were at that time. We can even see this in the Epistles. Unless of course they ask us to disobey God then we are to obey God and not man.

Amen. The "men" we are not to obey refer to those Jews who ordered the Apostles not to preach the Gospel; those "men" does not refer to those whom God gave authority to teach.


 
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IamAdopted

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Amen. The "men" we are not to obey refer to those Jews who ordered the Apostles not to preach the Gospel; those "men" does not refer to those whom God gave authority to teach.
Those men that was speaking of in the Gospel are also the men of the government and not teachers of truth. They were the pharasee's and did not love the Lord and IN FACT were the ones wanting Him put to death and you say we are to obey them? I get my authority from the Scriptures and Christ Spirit in me. I do not get my authority from Man when it comes to my Lord. He is my authority. For He is the only Head of His Church. :)
 
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TheDag

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the word Church, when interpolated into the text, is in error.

Ekklesia, is NOT church. Ekklesia is an assembly.

When you look at the scriptures in this light, you can see much more clearly the truth of the matter.

Matt.16
[18] And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my (assembly of believers), and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.

so, the powerr of death will not prevail against Gods children. A wonderful promise! And it completely does away with the notion that He ever promised an error free institution.

Matt.18
[17] If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the (assembly of believers); and if he refuses to listen even to the (assembly of believers) let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.


another instance that flies in the face of authority of one orginization! We are to take them to the assembly of believers. NOT a church.

it really chages the claim that Jesus instituted the EO or RCC church, doesn't it!
From reading this I would never have guessed that your point was
the key point is that denominationalism has nothing to do with whom Jesus calls his own.
Maybe next time you could actually provide definitions in the OP as that will stop people using the same word but different definitions.
 
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