Jesus Didn't Do Away With the Torah (Law)

Devin P

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Why do Jews have such a hard time accepting that Jesus is the Messiah?

Because, according to Deuteronomy 13, if Jesus did teach against Torah, and teach His disciples that they no longer had to keep Torah, then He cannot be the Messiah. In fact, if this is what Jesus taught, then the Pharisees were right in trying to stone Him. Granted, they should have brought Him before a judge, and had His case tried instead of mobbing up against Him as often as they did, but seeking to stone Him wouldn't of been unrighteous if He taught against Torah.

Why? Because according to Deuteronomy 13, if a prophet comes along, teaching anything other than the Torah that Moses gave Israel, they were false, lying, and deserving of death. Therefore, if Jesus did teach against Torah, He'd be breaking Torah, and therefore would be guilty of sin. BUT, we all know this isn't the case. He wasn't breaking Torah, because He was perfect, therefore He didn't teach that the Torah was done away with, as we see all throughout the New Testament, when the apostles kept and observed the Torah.

In fact the apostles observed Torah to the extent that they offered a sacrifice, they observed the feast days, the 7th day sabbath, they circumcised people, and they even kept the observance of clean foods. Things that would've condemned not only themselves, but also those they were teaching, considering Paul gave instructions on how to keep the feast of unleavened bread to gentiles.

The idea that the law was done away with, came about after 321 ad, when constantine placed a law in to effect that gave him power to excommunicate torah observing converted "gentiles" (in parenthesis, because conversion makes you part of Israel, no longer a gentile), and Jews/scattered Israelites that knew their lineage. Constantine even eventually used this law to kill those observing the 7th day sabbath instead of the 1st day sabbath he enacted in 321 ad. But, 321 ad was the start of the "torah being done away with". He even forced torah observant believers to observe Easter, instead of Passover, and again, death ensued if they were discovered. He was a big part of why we observe christmas, but it wasn't just him, so I can't talk too badly about him there. It definitely was ushered in because of him, but there were others that established it after him for sure.
 

Devin P

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He did teach against their traditions, and against the man-made doctrines, but He did not teach against Torah. He simply took the burden that man placed on God's holy instruction, now called "the law".

I'm serious, just try to disprove the 7th day sabbath being changed by constantine in 321 ad to the 1st day. He put those found observing it on the 7th day to death, there's several quotes of him hatefully speaking of those who kept Torah, jews or gentile converts. He hated anything "jewish" and killed anything that was even remotely similar to "jewish" practices, because he had serious hatred for the jews. Not that Torah was just for the jews, it was for all Israel, of which jews were simply 1-2 tribes out of 12. But gentiles lacked and still lack knowledge of these things, but even more so back then in Constantine's day.

Honestly, I'll go as far as to say that I don't even want you responding to this message if you don't at least google constantine making that 321 ad law changing the sabbath from the 7th day to the 1st. All too often I see on here people spewing hate without bothering to look into what they're saying.
 
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1 Keep on loving one another as brothers and sisters.
2 Do not forget to show hospitality to strangers, for by so doing some people have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it.
3 Continue to remember those in prison as if you were together with them in prison, and those who are mistreated as if you yourselves were suffering.
4Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.
5 Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, “Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you.”
 
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Devin P

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1 Keep on loving one another as brothers and sisters.
2 Do not forget to show hospitality to strangers, for by so doing some people have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it.
3 Continue to remember those in prison as if you were together with them in prison, and those who are mistreated as if you yourselves were suffering.
4Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.
5 Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, “Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you.”
These are concepts taught in Torah. There's literally verse after verse in Torah that teach this exact concept, but the ones that Jesus went over directly, were because - when you look at Jewish culture of that time - they had forgotten about these ideas. They placed oral law over the Torah. All throughout Torah we see that it's about loving one another, and your enemy and neighbor, yet Talmud teaches hate to anything non-jewish. It's why Jews today reject Messiah, and it's why Jews that accept Him, reject the nations being grafted into Israel with them, despite Torah saying that that's how God desires things to be.
 
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klutedavid

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Why do Jews have such a hard time accepting that Jesus is the Messiah?

Because, according to Deuteronomy 13, if Jesus did teach against Torah, and teach His disciples that they no longer had to keep Torah, then He cannot be the Messiah. In fact, if this is what Jesus taught, then the Pharisees were right in trying to stone Him. Granted, they should have brought Him before a judge, and had His case tried instead of mobbing up against Him as often as they did, but seeking to stone Him wouldn't of been unrighteous if He taught against Torah.

Why? Because according to Deuteronomy 13, if a prophet comes along, teaching anything other than the Torah that Moses gave Israel, they were false, lying, and deserving of death. Therefore, if Jesus did teach against Torah, He'd be breaking Torah, and therefore would be guilty of sin. BUT, we all know this isn't the case. He wasn't breaking Torah, because He was perfect, therefore He didn't teach that the Torah was done away with, as we see all throughout the New Testament, when the apostles kept and observed the Torah.

In fact the apostles observed Torah to the extent that they offered a sacrifice, they observed the feast days, the 7th day sabbath, they circumcised people, and they even kept the observance of clean foods. Things that would've condemned not only themselves, but also those they were teaching, considering Paul gave instructions on how to keep the feast of unleavened bread to gentiles.

The idea that the law was done away with, came about after 321 ad, when constantine placed a law in to effect that gave him power to excommunicate torah observing converted "gentiles" (in parenthesis, because conversion makes you part of Israel, no longer a gentile), and Jews/scattered Israelites that knew their lineage. Constantine even eventually used this law to kill those observing the 7th day sabbath instead of the 1st day sabbath he enacted in 321 ad. But, 321 ad was the start of the "torah being done away with". He even forced torah observant believers to observe Easter, instead of Passover, and again, death ensued if they were discovered. He was a big part of why we observe christmas, but it wasn't just him, so I can't talk too badly about him there. It definitely was ushered in because of him, but there were others that established it after him for sure.
Hello Devin P.

The Gentiles were not obliged to obey the covenant, that God made with Israel.

The Gentiles were not under the words of that covenant that God made Israel.

Israel agreed to obey the words of that covenant, the Gentile nations never agreed.

Israel was bound by their agreement with God at Mt Sinai.

So it is not the case that anyone has abolished the Torah, it is all about who was under the Torah.
 
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Soyeong

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Why do Jews have such a hard time accepting that Jesus is the Messiah?

Because, according to Deuteronomy 13, if Jesus did teach against Torah, and teach His disciples that they no longer had to keep Torah, then He cannot be the Messiah. In fact, if this is what Jesus taught, then the Pharisees were right in trying to stone Him. Granted, they should have brought Him before a judge, and had His case tried instead of mobbing up against Him as often as they did, but seeking to stone Him wouldn't of been unrighteous if He taught against Torah.

Why? Because according to Deuteronomy 13, if a prophet comes along, teaching anything other than the Torah that Moses gave Israel, they were false, lying, and deserving of death. Therefore, if Jesus did teach against Torah, He'd be breaking Torah, and therefore would be guilty of sin. BUT, we all know this isn't the case. He wasn't breaking Torah, because He was perfect, therefore He didn't teach that the Torah was done away with, as we see all throughout the New Testament, when the apostles kept and observed the Torah.

In fact the apostles observed Torah to the extent that they offered a sacrifice, they observed the feast days, the 7th day sabbath, they circumcised people, and they even kept the observance of clean foods. Things that would've condemned not only themselves, but also those they were teaching, considering Paul gave instructions on how to keep the feast of unleavened bread to gentiles.

The idea that the law was done away with, came about after 321 ad, when constantine placed a law in to effect that gave him power to excommunicate torah observing converted "gentiles" (in parenthesis, because conversion makes you part of Israel, no longer a gentile), and Jews/scattered Israelites that knew their lineage. Constantine even eventually used this law to kill those observing the 7th day sabbath instead of the 1st day sabbath he enacted in 321 ad. But, 321 ad was the start of the "torah being done away with". He even forced torah observant believers to observe Easter, instead of Passover, and again, death ensued if they were discovered. He was a big part of why we observe christmas, but it wasn't just him, so I can't talk too badly about him there. It definitely was ushered in because of him, but there were others that established it after him for sure.

I was about to say to be careful how much you can pin on one guy. Though I would place the start of the division much earlier with Emperor's Claudius' expulsion of the Jews from Rome and with Gentiles not wanting to come back under Jewish leadership upon their return, who either did not understand or take to heart Paul's letter to them. Many of the Church Fathers had some jaw-droppingly anti-Semitic things to say, Judaism and early Judeo-Christianity sadly did have very good relations, which sadly led to them distancing themselves for each other. So while things that Constantine did certainly made the problem worse, I don't think he was the root of the problem.
 
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Devin P

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Hello Devin P.

The Gentiles were not obliged to obey the covenant, that God made with Israel.

The Gentiles were not under the words of that covenant that God made Israel.

Israel agreed to obey the words of that covenant, the Gentile nations never agreed.

Israel was bound by their agreement with God at Mt Sinai.

So it is not the case that anyone has abolished the Torah, it is all about who was under the Torah.
Leviticus 24:22 - Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God.

Exodus 12:49 - "The same law shall apply to the native as to the stranger who sojourns among you."

Numbers 15:16 -
'There is to be one law and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you.'"

Genesis 26:5 - Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Genesis 7:2 - Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

Israel, throughout scripture, is called an olive tree. Then, in Romans 11, we find that as gentiles, through faith, we can be grafted into the good olive tree. The good olive tree is Israel. But, when we believe in God, and become part of Israel, we obey the law of God. Just as Abraham did in Genesis 26:5, generations before Israel existed, and generations before Israel was given the law. Just as Noah only being able to eat clean animals, again, generations before Israel even existed, or even thought of being given Torah.

Through faith in Jesus, and in the OT, God, and honestly even arguably Jesus, gentiles became Israel. Just as it was, it is now. The only difference, is we're waiting on the return of our Messiah, so He can bring us again into the land for the millennial reign. That's the only difference, that we aren't in the land, and can't do all of the Torah.

What Jesus freed us from wasn't the Torah, but the curse for breaking Torah. As Israel, God divorced us, because of our unfaithfulness. According to Torah, we had to wait until our Husband (God) died to be freed from this law. He literally died, so we could be freed from this curse, for breaking the law. Not the law itself, otherwise, what would be the point of Him dying according to the law, if He would just do away with it? And why would He do away with it, if He's just going to bring it back again? And even if He did away with it, again, He'd be breaking Torah, and even if He did do away with it, why do the apostles keep Torah in the New Testament?

If there's no law, why is faith without works dead? If there's no law, why does Jesus say depart from me, ye workers of lawlessness?

There's too many things that don't add up when we take scripture with the view that there's no more law. Especially the verses where God uses prophets to prophesy about the end times, and He condemns those breaking Torah. (Isaiah 66 condemning those who eat pork in the end times - something yet to come).

So, either Isaiah would be a false prophet for not speaking truth about eaters of swine's flesh being condemned in the end times, or Isaiah is speaking truth, and we've misunderstood.
 
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Devin P

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I was about to say to be careful how much you can pin on one guy. Though I would place the start of the division much earlier with Emperor's Claudius' expulsion of the Jews from Rome and with Gentiles not wanting to come back under Jewish leadership upon their return, who either did not understand or take to heart Paul's letter to them. Many of the Church Fathers had some jaw-droppingly anti-Semitic things to say, Judaism and early Judeo-Christianity sadly did have very good relations, which sadly led to them distancing themselves for each other. So while things that Constantine did certainly made the problem worse, I don't think he was the root of the problem.
I can agree. The only reason I say that he's responsible for so much, was because while there was turmoil, he was the first to create a law that gave him power to kill those practicing Torah. He's the reason we stopped observing Torah all together. There was still a Torah observant fire kindling, and growing, but then he snuffed it out. Obviously some remained, but most were forced into either modern christianity, or to death.
 
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klutedavid

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Hello Devin P.

Your quotations below are only referring to a temporary stay by a Gentile in Israel.

Leviticus 24:22 - Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God.

The stranger mentioned above is singular, this does not apply to Gentile nations.

Exodus 12:49 - "The same law shall apply to the native as to the stranger who sojourns among you."

One person, the stranger.

Numbers 15:16 -
'There is to be one law and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you.'"

Exactly, the alien who stays with you, sojourn means temporary.

Genesis 26:5 - Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Nothing about Gentiles and the law here.

Genesis 7:2 - Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

What has this verse got to do with the Gentiles?

Gentiles are grafted into the root of the olive tree, Christ.

The Jews were grafted out of the root, hardened to the truth.

The house of Jerusalem was left desolate by Jesus, we are now in the age of the Gentiles.

Old covenant Israel, theocratic Israel has gone forever.
 
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Soyeong

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Hello Devin P.

The Gentiles were not obliged to obey the covenant, that God made with Israel.

The Gentiles were not under the words of that covenant that God made Israel.

Israel agreed to obey the words of that covenant, the Gentile nations never agreed.

Israel was bound by their agreement with God at Mt Sinai.

So it is not the case that anyone has abolished the Torah, it is all about who was under the Torah.

Joshua 8:33 All Israel with their elders and officers and their judges were standing on both sides of the ark before the Levitical priests who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD, the stranger as well as the native. Half of them stood in front of Mount Gerizim and half of them in front of Mount Ebal, just as Moses the servant of the LORD had given command at first to bless the people of Israel.

In this verse, Israel is inclusive of both Jews and Gentiles, so the covenant was also made with those Gentiles who affiliated themselves with Israel. However, I will agree that we are not under the Mosaic Covenant, but we are still followers of the same God, so we are still required to walk in His ways. If Gentiles are not required to avoid what God has instructed to be sin, then Gentiles are free to sin, but Gentiles are not free to do what God has revealed to be sin, so Gentiles are still under God's Law. If Gentiles were never under God's Law, then Gentiles have never needed Christ to give himself to redeem them from all Lawlessness.
 
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Devin P

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Hello Devin P.

Your quotations below are only referring to a temporary stay by a Gentile in Israel.

Leviticus 24:22 - Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God.

The stranger mentioned above is singular, this does not apply to Gentile nations.

Exodus 12:49 - "The same law shall apply to the native as to the stranger who sojourns among you."

One person, the stranger.

Numbers 15:16 -
'There is to be one law and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you.'"

Exactly, the alien who stays with you, sojourn means temporary.

Genesis 26:5 - Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Nothing about Gentiles and the law here.

Genesis 7:2 - Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

What has this verse got to do with the Gentiles?

Gentiles are grafted into the root of the olive tree, Christ.

The Jews were grafted out of the root, hardened to the truth.

The house of Jerusalem was left desolate by Jesus, we are now in the age of the Gentiles.

Old covenant Israel, theocratic Israel has gone forever.
Uh, no. They're definitely not.

Ezekiel 47:22 - And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.

Leviticus 19:34 - But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

They didn't temporarily stay there, because there were also egyptians that followed them out of the land of Egypt. God never said, this I speak to Israel, and also to the strangers that came out of the land of Israel. No. They had faith, and thus were joined into Israel. As it says in Leviticus 19, "the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you". You'd have to try mighty hard to try to say that "as one born among you" means anything other than "as one born among you". As one born among you, means as a native born.
 
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klutedavid

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Joshua 8:33 All Israel with their elders and officers and their judges were standing on both sides of the ark before the Levitical priests who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD, the stranger as well as the native. Half of them stood in front of Mount Gerizim and half of them in front of Mount Ebal, just as Moses the servant of the LORD had given command at first to bless the people of Israel.

In this verse, Israel is inclusive of both Jews and Gentiles, so the covenant was also made with those Gentiles who affiliated themselves with Israel. However, I will agree that we are not under the Mosaic Covenant, but we are still followers of the same God, so we are still required to walk in His ways. If Gentiles are not required to avoid what God has instructed to be sin, then Gentiles are free to sin, but Gentiles are not free to do what God has revealed to be sin, so Gentiles are still under God's Law. If Gentiles were never under God's Law, then Gentiles have never needed Christ to give himself to redeem them from all Lawlessness.
Hello Soyeong.

What you said is not correct.
If Gentiles are not required to avoid what God has instructed to be sin, then Gentiles are free to sin, but Gentiles are not free to do what God has revealed to be sin, so Gentiles are still under God's Law.
Please read the following.

Romans 2
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts.

See Soyeong, even Paul openly states that the Gentiles are not under the law.
 
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klutedavid

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Uh, no. They're definitely not.

Ezekiel 47:22 - And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.

Leviticus 19:34 - But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

They didn't temporarily stay there, because there were also egyptians that followed them out of the land of Egypt. God never said, this I speak to Israel, and also to the strangers that came out of the land of Israel. No. They had faith, and thus were joined into Israel. As it says in Leviticus 19, "the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you". You'd have to try mighty hard to try to say that "as one born among you" means anything other than "as one born among you". As one born among you, means as a native born.
Hello Devin P.

Still no verses related to the Gentile nations.

Gentiles are grafted in and Jews are grafted out of the root of the olive tree.

Theocratic Israel has left the building, they have not been seen for two thousand years.
 
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Devin P

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Hello Devin P.

Still no verses related to the Gentile nations.

Gentiles are grafted in and Jews are grafted out of the root of the olive tree.

Theocratic Israel has left the building, they have not been seen for two thousand years.
So, they aren't grafted out of the root, because the root is Christ. No one has ever been grafted out of the root, because the root has always been Christ, right. Nor are all of jews grafted out, nor is this grafting out permanent in most cases. God grafted them out temporarily so we could be grafted in as well.

A stranger, is a gentile. It's someone that knows not God, hence, someone that was out of covenant, and therefore a gentile. The strangers, and sojourners, are gentiles, because they are out of covenant, but when they have faith enough to join Israel, and follow the ways of God, circumcision, feasts, shabbat, etc, they become part of the covenant. This is basic Torah understanding that strangers, are gentiles. All gentiles are, are those out of covenant, something a stranger definitely was prior to becoming part of the covenant.
 
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Devin P

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Joshua 8:33 All Israel with their elders and officers and their judges were standing on both sides of the ark before the Levitical priests who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD, the stranger as well as the native. Half of them stood in front of Mount Gerizim and half of them in front of Mount Ebal, just as Moses the servant of the LORD had given command at first to bless the people of Israel.

In this verse, Israel is inclusive of both Jews and Gentiles, so the covenant was also made with those Gentiles who affiliated themselves with Israel. However, I will agree that we are not under the Mosaic Covenant, but we are still followers of the same God, so we are still required to walk in His ways. If Gentiles are not required to avoid what God has instructed to be sin, then Gentiles are free to sin, but Gentiles are not free to do what God has revealed to be sin, so Gentiles are still under God's Law. If Gentiles were never under God's Law, then Gentiles have never needed Christ to give himself to redeem them from all Lawlessness.
I agree. It sounds as if you are still putting a difference between natural blood Israel, and gentiles though, I could be misunderstanding but I'm not sure. That's what the grafting is though, it's also what I believe Torah speaks about. I could be wrong, but I believe, based on a multitude of other scriptures, prophecies, and chapters, that the stranger and sojourner was only mentioned as such, to provide proof that gentiles were present, and that they too are subject to God's perfect and holy law. That's a great catch though, and I just read that verse earlier today and didn't even take note of it.

There are some things that I feel blood took precedence over however, such as being a high priest after the order of the lineage of Aaron, but general claim to being Israel went to all that kept Torah, and that lived after the customs of Israel, especially after the 3rd generation as Torah states. Considering the stranger after the third generation is considered enough of Israel, that they could then enter the tabernacle and become priest. Not priest as Aaron's sons were priest, but a priest nonetheless.
 
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Hello Soyeong.

What you said is not correct.

Please read the following.

Romans 2
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts.

See Soyeong, even Paul openly states that the Gentiles are not under the law.

In Romans 2:13, Paul said that is not the hearers of the Law who will be justified, but the does, and now you want to use the next verse to say that it is ok for Gentiles to be hearers of the Law, but not doers? Does Paul not want Gentiles to be justified? It does not make sense for God to give instructions to His followers for how to follow Him, how to walk in His ways, and how to do what is for our own good, and then for people who want to become His followers to reject those instructions because they were only given to His followers and not for people like them who were not God's followers. In Romans 2:14, Paul thought it was a good thing that those whom the Law was not given to were doing what it requires and showing that they have the Law written on their hearts. In Romans 2:26, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Law. All followers of Messiah ought to follow the example that he set for his followers to follow, so not just the Jews get that privilege. Though ultimately everyone is under God's Law regardless of who it was given to because God would have had no grounds to justly judge Sodom and Gomorrah if they were not obligated to live according to His righteous standard.
 
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Why do Jews have such a hard time accepting that Jesus is the Messiah?

Because, according to Deuteronomy 13, if Jesus did teach against Torah, and teach His disciples that they no longer had to keep Torah, then He cannot be the Messiah. In fact, if this is what Jesus taught, then the Pharisees were right in trying to stone Him. Granted, they should have brought Him before a judge, and had His case tried instead of mobbing up against Him as often as they did, but seeking to stone Him wouldn't of been unrighteous if He taught against Torah.

Why? Because according to Deuteronomy 13, if a prophet comes along, teaching anything other than the Torah that Moses gave Israel, they were false, lying, and deserving of death. Therefore, if Jesus did teach against Torah, He'd be breaking Torah, and therefore would be guilty of sin. BUT, we all know this isn't the case. He wasn't breaking Torah, because He was perfect, therefore He didn't teach that the Torah was done away with, as we see all throughout the New Testament, when the apostles kept and observed the Torah.

In fact the apostles observed Torah to the extent that they offered a sacrifice, they observed the feast days, the 7th day sabbath, they circumcised people, and they even kept the observance of clean foods. Things that would've condemned not only themselves, but also those they were teaching, considering Paul gave instructions on how to keep the feast of unleavened bread to gentiles.

The idea that the law was done away with, came about after 321 ad, when constantine placed a law in to effect that gave him power to excommunicate torah observing converted "gentiles" (in parenthesis, because conversion makes you part of Israel, no longer a gentile), and Jews/scattered Israelites that knew their lineage. Constantine even eventually used this law to kill those observing the 7th day sabbath instead of the 1st day sabbath he enacted in 321 ad. But, 321 ad was the start of the "torah being done away with". He even forced torah observant believers to observe Easter, instead of Passover, and again, death ensued if they were discovered. He was a big part of why we observe christmas, but it wasn't just him, so I can't talk too badly about him there. It definitely was ushered in because of him, but there were others that established it after him for sure.

Here is what Deuteronomy 22:20-21 says: "If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman's virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you."

If Jesus didn't do away with the Mosaic Law, Christians would be practicing honor killings. Doesn't the New Testament talk about forgiveness and loving your neighbor?
 
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Soyeong

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Here is what Deuteronomy 22:20-21 says: "If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman's virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you."

If Jesus didn't do away with the Mosaic Law, Christians would be practicing honor killings. Doesn't the New Testament talk about forgiveness and loving your neighbor?

The Jews do not have a history of executing someone every time the Law prescribed it, but rather they often imposed a fine instead. The harshness of the prescribed penalty was to show the seriousness of the offense to God, but the lighter penalty was to show the mercy of God. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that justice, mercy, and faith are weightier matters of the Law, so if those attributes of God are not present in how we obey the Law, then we are not obeying it correctly. Out of mercy, God does not judge us as soon as we sin, but gives us time to repent. When people do something wrong and they repent, we should likewise be willing to forgive them and show them mercy, but as with the Parable of the Unmerciful Servant (Matthew 18:21-35), mercy is given with the expectation that someone will change their behavior, and the penalty for the original offense can be reinstated it did not lead to such a change. The King forgave his servant an insurmountable debt, so it wouldn't make much sense for someone to look at the King's second interaction with his servant and ask whether the NT speaks about the importance of mercy.

In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus was asked about what the greatest command was, and he replied to love God and our neighbor, so the Mosaic Law also speaks about the importance of forgiveness and of loving our neighbor (Leviticus 19:18), and Jesus summarized it as being about love. The Mosaic Law also speaks about having due process and how no one was to be put to death without having at least two or three witnesses, and even then she could seek mercy.
 
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klutedavid

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In Romans 2:13, Paul said that is not the hearers of the Law who will be justified, but the does, and now you want to use the next verse to say that it is ok for Gentiles to be hearers of the Law, but not doers? Does Paul not want Gentiles to be justified? It does not make sense for God to give instructions to His followers for how to follow Him, how to walk in His ways, and how to do what is for our own good, and then for people who want to become His followers to reject those instructions because they were only given to His followers and not for people like them who were not God's followers. In Romans 2:14, Paul thought it was a good thing that those whom the Law was not given to were doing what it requires and showing that they have the Law written on their hearts. In Romans 2:26, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Law. All followers of Messiah ought to follow the example that he set for his followers to follow, so not just the Jews get that privilege. Though ultimately everyone is under God's Law regardless of who it was given to because God would have had no grounds to justly judge Sodom and Gomorrah if they were not obligated to live according to His righteous standard.
Hello Soyeong.

Gentiles do what the law requires by loving others, loving others was the instruction given to the Gentiles. Paul said the Gentiles do not have the law.

Romans 2
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law...

Your saying Gentiles had the law?

The law and the prophets are basically telling you to treat others properly (love).

Matthew 7:12
“In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

The law pointed you towards treating people well, now start treating people the way you want to be treated all the time. This fulfills whatever law you can think of.
 
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Soyeong

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Hello Soyeong.

Gentiles do what the law requires by loving others, loving others was the instruction given to the Gentiles. Paul said the Gentiles do not have the law.

Romans 2
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law...

Your saying Gentiles had the law?

The law and the prophets are basically telling you to treat others properly (love).

Matthew 7:12
“In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

The law pointed you towards treating people well, now start treating people the way you want to be treated all the time. This fulfills whatever law you can think of.

Hello,

Jews are entrusted with the oracles of God (Romans 3:2). Making a Torah scroll was a very expensive and time consuming process involving raising cattle, producing parchment, and creating barrels of ink, and taking a scribe over a year to copy, so most Jews did not have a personal copy unless they were very wealthy. So if a Gentile wanted access to a Torah scroll to find out how to walk in God's ways, then they would have to go to a Jew because the Jews have the Torah, but today that is no longer the case because the Torah is readily available to almost anyone who wants a copy.

All of the 613 commands in the OT and 1,050 commands in the NT can be summarized as God's instructions for how He wants us to love Him and our neighbor, so love fulfills the Law because that is what it is essentially about how to do, but it would be a mistake for someone to say that we just need to love, therefore we can disregard all of God's instructions for how He wants us to love. The command to love the Lord your God it all of your heart, mind, soul, and strength is a lot easier said than done, so thankfully we have all of these other instruction to paint us a picture of what that looks like.
 
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