Jesus Christ Truly God Truly man (human)

[Norbert L]

You have to ask yourself this: Why did the Holy Spirit have to create Jesus, why didn't God just put him in the body of a child born of someone else like the rest of us?

Are there divine human beings on earth? No. Jesus was probably human but a divine one.

So who is Moses seeing face to face just as a man speaks to his friend in bodily form Exodus 33:11? I doubt anyone thinks we have four persons in the Trinity.

 

[Norbert L]

Recommend reading the Athanasian creed again. Best explanation.

The best explanation depends on two things, the person(s) giving and explaining the concepts and the person listening to them. In my view Dr. Michael Heiser in his lectures from modern scholarship on this topic has given the "best" explanation. They both end up with the same conclusion but given our modern understanding of nature, Dr. Heiser does make it more understandable as to why and how first century monotheistic Jews would believe Jesus was that same God appearing before the patriarchs in the flesh. At least for people like me.

 

[Dave L]

The Definition of Chalcedon (A.D. 451)

We then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach men to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body; consubstantial [coessential] with the Father according to the Godhead, and consubstantial with us according to the Manhood; in all things like unto us, without sin; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, according to the Manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures; inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ, as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning him, and the Lord Jesus Christ himself has taught us; and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us.

 

[Barney2.0]

Christ WAS fully human but isn't anymore.

When a human is born they are human because they are mortal and are a created being. If you die and are resurrected and changed/glorified then you aren't "human" anymore because you are something more, greater than a human's origin.

This also explains it:

1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

If the body sowed (buried) is not the same body that "shall be" then that proves there is a big difference between a "seed" and the "plant" that comes forth later so then the human that dies is raised as something more than human. Other scripture says we are "equal unto the angels" in the resurrection and that Christ was made "a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death" during his life here as a human being. This proves that there is a difference between being a living human being which is mortal, and a resurrected person who cannot die and is higher than a human and equal to the angels. And Christ being God is not only higher than a human but higher than an angel so that further distances Him from being "fully human" after his resurrection. He was fully human (and fully God) before that for some 33 years or so but isn't fully human now.

He is currently fully God. His humanity was only temporary.

Hebrews 13:8

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Christ’s body was simply divinized after the resurrection, it’s still however the same body he walked with on earth. Jesus will remain fully human and fully God forever, which is how he acts as our perfect mediator between God and man.

 

[Barney2.0]

It’s always in posts like this that you see so many heretical beliefs come up. Jesus is fully human and God, anyone who says otherwise would contradict the historical Christian faith and the apostolic faith of the Fathers and Church. Most people who hold otherwise in this thread seem to hold ideas that resemble historical heresies.

 

[JacksBratt]

Yes, he was created by God in Mary's womb. His spirit has always been God although he was created a perfect human body by God (no flaws or mutations found in regular humans which are probably caused from inbreeding from Adam and Eve's children and so on). Matthew 1:18

You have to ask yourself this: Why did the Holy Spirit have to create Jesus, why didn't God just put him in the body of a child born of someone else like the rest of us?

Because He could not be the son of any human man... He was God's son. He was still fully human.

He was the second Adam. The first was created by God... and brought sin into the world..
The second, a human created by God.... to take sin out of the world.

 

[His student]

Two reasons why that may be. First it is a core Christian belief.

I agree that it has been a core Christian belief for the majority of church history.

Second if Jesus is anything other than what the Creeds present then He is not the propitiation for our sins.

However, I cannot agree that it is necessary that God has existed eternally as a God the Father person, as a God the Son person, and as a God the Holy Spirit person in order for Jesus, all of the fullness of deity manifest in the flesh, could die for our sins.

I certainly don't agree that a subscription to all of the creeds (as helpful as they are and as correct as they usually are) is necessary for Christ to be the propitiation for my sins and certainly not for a world that does not believe in Him. If that were the case than many or even most of the early church before those creeds were written would not have been saved - probably not even the apostles themselves.

 

[~Zao~]

I agree that it has been a core Christian belief for the majority of church history.

However, I cannot agree that it is necessary that God has existed eternally as a God the Father person, as a God the Son person, and as a God the Holy Spirit person in order for Jesus, all of the fullness of deity manifest in the flesh, could die for our sins.

I certainly don't agree that a subscription to all of the creeds (as helpful as they are and as correct as they usually are) is necessary for Christ to be the propitiation for my sins and certainly not for a world that does not believe in Him. If that were the case than many or even most of the early church before those creeds were written would not have been saved - probably not even the apostles themselves.

Propitiation is only accredited to those who are accepted as the first-fruits along with Christ. The acceptance/justification is the invitation to reconciliation with God. Reconciliation with God brings one onto His wavelength rather than the world’s because the communication lines have been renewed.
There will always be judgment for those who are in rebellion against YHWH, but His plan all along has been to restore and bless those who would return to Him through the blood sacrifice of the Perfect Lamb of God.

My thoughts on the pre-existence of the trinity is that we’re made in His image. Body and soul used to be norm of thinking about people before they woke up to the fact of the human spirit reawakening to communion with the Holy Spirit. Now the Holy Spirit has come into the light of inspection. But the doesn’t mean that HS didn’t exist previously, just that human understanding was limited. Creeds are merely starting points to understanding.

 

[redleghunter]

---SE---

I believe Isaiah 44 and Isaiah 45 might clear things up a bit.

 

[iam1me]

I believe Isaiah 44 and Isaiah 45 might clear things up a bit.

You are the one requesting that non-trinitarians explain their position in detail - I'd hope you'd give a real response in turn...

 

[Pedra]

Impeccability is something Adam had for a while. And Eve too for a while. So while impeccability is indeed special it is not what makes Jesus special. What makes Him special is that he is a human being who is at the same time the person of the eternal Son of the Father, uncreated, eternal, begotten of the Father. As a consequence of that astounding thing he just happens to also be impeccable. But God can make impeccable people like Adam, Eve, Mary, and they are not anything near Jesus Christ. He was one in being with the Father, not merely sinless.

Where is the scripture that says Adam , Eve or Mary were "impeccable"?
I don't see it in the Word of God , can you provide these verses?

dictionary.com
impeccable
[ im-pek-uh-buhl ]
adjective
faultless; flawless; irreproachable:impeccable manners.
not liable to sin; incapable of sin.

 

[redleghunter]

You are the one requesting that non-trinitarians explain their position in detail - I'd hope you'd give a real response in turn...

I believe those two chapters show that Yahweh and Yahweh of hosts explains one is not more God than the other.

 

[iam1me]

I believe those two chapters show that Yahweh and Yahweh of hosts explains one is not more God than the other.

First off, just listing some references to books in the bible doesn't make any point whatsoever by itself - you need to accompany it with an explanation of what your point is.

Secondly, nothing in those chapters in any way addresses the arguments made in my post - nor again does your subsequent exegesis that "Yahweh" and "Yahweh of hosts" are equally God

Actually read my post and address the arguments presented

 

[redleghunter]

I agree that it has been a core Christian belief for the majority of church history.

However, I cannot agree that it is necessary that God has existed eternally as a God the Father person, as a God the Son person, and as a God the Holy Spirit person in order for Jesus, all of the fullness of deity manifest in the flesh, could die for our sins.

I certainly don't agree that a subscription to all of the creeds (as helpful as they are and as correct as they usually are) is necessary for Christ to be the propitiation for my sins and certainly not for a world that does not believe in Him. If that were the case than many or even most of the early church before those creeds were written would not have been saved - probably not even the apostles themselves.

I think if we ask the question of how Jesus Christ is the mediator between God and mankind helps understand Colossians 2:9.

 

[redleghunter]

First off, just listing some references to books in the bible doesn't make any point whatsoever by itself - you need to accompany it with an explanation of what your point is.

Secondly, nothing in those chapters in any way addresses the arguments made in my post - nor again does your subsequent exegesis that "Yahweh" and "Yahweh of hosts" are equally God

Actually read my post and address the arguments presented

There is only One First and last.

Isaiah 44: NASB
6“Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
‘I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.


And Jesus makes the same claim in Revelation chapter 1:

Revelation 1: NASB


17When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

Unless there are a lot of angels running around claiming to be God, the above is crystal clear.

Yahweh claims to be the first and last in Isaiah 44. Jesus Christ makes the same claim in Revelation 1.

The only way your view could be argued is if one subscribes to tritheism.

 

[redleghunter]

Paul here makes it quite explicit that Christ, the Son, is distinct and subordinate to "God himself". I have yet to see an honest and rational response to this passage by a Trinitarian.

This is the difference between the relationship of Father and Son. Which does not mean God the Son is any less than God from God.

 

[eleos1954]

Another problem with calling Jesus fully human is the fact that he was able to produce so many miracles, something regular human's cannot do. This included resurrecting himself. Can humans resurrect themselves? Of course not. We rely on God for that.

I disagree Jesus resurrected himself.

Jesus

• John 5:30
  I can of Myself do nothing (including resurrecting himself). As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
  
• John 8:28-29
  Then Jesus said to them, "When you (God the Father) lift up the Son of Man (Jesus), then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things. And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him."

Jesus had the power of resurrection of others on earth and all miracles were through the power of the Father through His Holy spirit ... Jesus gave all the glory to the Father.

Matthew 3 - Jesus baptism

16As soon as Jesus was baptized, He went up out of the water. Suddenly the heavens were opened, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and resting on Him. 17And a voice from heaven said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased!”

Did Jesus die (earthly death - 1st death)? Yes he did. Did Jesus die the 2nd death .... yes bodily and spiritually separated from God.

Can God the Father die an earthly death? No, because He is not earthly.

Can humans resurrect themselves? Of course not. We rely on God for that.

and so did Jesus rely on God the Father.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I agree that it has been a core Christian belief for the majority of church history.

However, I cannot agree that it is necessary that God has existed eternally as a God the Father person, as a God the Son person, and as a God the Holy Spirit person in order for Jesus, all of the fullness of deity manifest in the flesh, could die for our sins.

That is a somewhat separate branch of theology from christology, which has been discussed up to this point. Who God is, as God, well of course it is all related, but I think you could treat the issues separately.

I certainly don't agree that a subscription to all of the creeds (as helpful as they are and as correct as they usually are) is necessary for Christ to be the propitiation for my sins and certainly not for a world that does not believe in Him. If that were the case than many or even most of the early church before those creeds were written would not have been saved - probably not even the apostles themselves.

It's not so much that you need to positively assent to each and every creed, but that you may not dissent from them knowingly and willingly. We do not need to comprehend everything (we can't) but we should not deny anything in the creeds either. One can be saved without vast knowledge but not without accepting what little we do know.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Where is the scripture that says Adam , Eve or Mary were "impeccable"?
I don't see it in the Word of God , can you provide these verses?

dictionary.com
impeccable
[ im-pek-uh-buhl ]
adjective
faultless; flawless; irreproachable:impeccable manners.
not liable to sin; incapable of sin.

Um, I guess it nowhere says in Genesis that Adam and Eve didn't sin before Eve ate the fruit. I wrongly assumed it was obvious they didn't sin up until that time, thus impeccable until Eve then Adam ate the fruit. Sorry 'bout that.

As to Mary, it's in Luke 1 where she is described as full of grace, hence absent of evil.

 

[Pedra]

Um, I guess it nowhere says in Genesis that Adam and Eve didn't sin before Eve ate the fruit. I wrongly assumed it was obvious they didn't sin up until that time, thus impeccable until Eve then Adam ate the fruit. Sorry 'bout that.

As to Mary, it's in Luke 1 where she is described as full of grace, hence absent of evil.

Only Jesus is perfect.
That belief in Mary being sinless is a only doctrine taught by RCC or Eastern Orthodox.