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Jesus Christ Truly God Truly man (human)

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by redleghunter, Sep 14, 2019.

  1. Yes

    43 vote(s)
    93.5%
  2. No

    3 vote(s)
    6.5%
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  1. Christ is Lord

    Christ is Lord Well-Known Member

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    We inherited the sin nature (i.e the tendency to want to choose evil) because of the fall. I’m not sure about the distinction between soul and body in this case. You’ve given me something to ponder. :)
     
  2. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This was all put together in a systematic form between the time of Arius and about 600 AD. Mostly by Christians in Asia Minor doing some very high level systematic theology of a sort that we moderns struggle mightily to attain. There were some brilliant theologians like Basil and Athanasius involved in this but the discussions were at a high level even in the barber shops of Constantinople, just down the road a few miles from Nicea. What resulted was a distillation of the very non-systematic teaching of the Bible into an unambiguous form. Today we struggle to even understand the first councils and we miss what was really going on. I'd say it's very worth it to try, to engage all three creeds, to be shaped by them as they were shaped by our elders in the faith grappling with how to be true to the Bible.

    A side note on Arius. He was very much a Bible Only kind of guy. But he ended up presenting something alien to the faith nonetheless.
     
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  3. devin553344

    devin553344 I believe in the Resurrection

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    Yes I will go with orthodox doctrine unless God tells me otherwise. Why throw out and remake the wheel ;)
     
  4. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    Christ must be fully man and fully God or He could not have been our savior and intercessor.
    He is also our brother and high priest to God. Truly we are of Him and a part of the family of God.

    Hebrews 2
    10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying,

    “I will proclaim Your name to My brethren,
    In the midst of the congregation I will sing Your praise.”

    13 And again,

    “I will put My trust in Him.”

    And again,

    “Behold, I and the children whom God has given Me.”

    14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

    15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. 16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. 17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.
     
  5. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Exactly. Jesus was like us in EVERYTHING but sin. See Hebrews 4:15

    Jesus had desires, emotions, a human will, a human intellect, he got tired and hungry and probably got sick from time to time. He had to be potty trained. He may have had ingrown toenails. He could not bench press a thousand pounds. All of those things. But his person, who he was, that was the eternal Son of the Father. The hypostatic union thing. He was both together, not a weird chimera part this and part that but a whole human who was God.
     
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  6. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Watch out for the 'sin nature' concept. It may be misleading. Consider that we have a 'human nature' bent by sin, a heart of darkness, but that human nature was Adamic and then came the fall.
     
  7. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    But of course. Those are our creeds, very much including the Athanasian Creed. And lots of Protestants have kept them. Which is fine by me,
     
  8. Christ is Lord

    Christ is Lord Well-Known Member

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    That is true that someone people misunderstand it. And also misunderstand why Jesus didn’t have a sin nature. I’ve heard people say if he didn’t have a sin nature then he can’t sympathize with us (Hebrews 4:15)
     
  9. Athanasius377

    Athanasius377 Is a little right of Atilla the Hun Supporter

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    Besides the three ecumenical creeds there is also the Chalcedonian Definition from the fourth Ecumenical council (451) convened to address this exact subject.

    We, then, following the holy fathers, all with one consent, teach men to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a reasonable soul and body; consubstantial with the Father according to the Godhead and consubstantial with us according to the manhood; in all things like unto us, without sin; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, according to the manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one person and one subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only-begotten, God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ; as the prophets from the beginning have declared concerning him, and the Lord Jesus Christ himself has taught us, and the creed of the holy fathers has handed down to us.

    Jackson, G. A. (1883). The Post-Nicene Greek Fathers. (G. P. Fisher, Ed.) (p. 24). New York: D. Appleton and Company.
     
  10. devin553344

    devin553344 I believe in the Resurrection

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    I see your point and I agree with you on that. The point I'm making is where Jesus and I are different. We have similar bodies, but vastly different spirits. And it's my belief that we sin because our spirits are not godly. So in my view he wasn't fully like us 'fully human'. He didn't have a human spirit.
     
  11. Christ is Lord

    Christ is Lord Well-Known Member

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    Interesting. Do you think he might have been like Adam before the fall? Adam at that point was fully human but he didn’t have a sin nature.
     
  12. devin553344

    devin553344 I believe in the Resurrection

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    Well I think Jesus' spirit is superior to ours and impeccable as God is impeccable. So while I can say Jesus had a human body and therefore is the Christ. He was not like us humans with human spirits that are dimly lit. We of course require the Holy Spirit of God to not sin and recover from sin. At least that's the doctrine I currently believe :)
     
  13. Christ is Lord

    Christ is Lord Well-Known Member

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    Do you believe that happens while on earth?
     
  14. devin553344

    devin553344 I believe in the Resurrection

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    I have felt the Holy Spirit of God strongly on 3 occasions and while I was filled with the Holy Spirit I did not desire any sin, it was purged from my soul for a short time. But I don't think people are going to be sinless on the earth for the most part. I must keep repenting that's for sure.
     
  15. devin553344

    devin553344 I believe in the Resurrection

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    Also when I serve God I get a portion of his holy spirit and get filled with peace and love. So yes to some degree it happens if you serve the Lord.
     
  16. All4Christ

    All4Christ ✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙ Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    I think you have a different version of the Nicene Creed than the Creed held by historic Christianity.

    I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth and of all things visible and invisible.

    And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of light; true God of true God; begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by Whom all things were made; Who for us men and for our salvation came down from Heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man. And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried. And the third day He arose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into Heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; Whose Kingdom shall have no end.

    And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, Who proceeds from the Father; Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; Who spoke by the prophets.

    In one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.
     
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  17. All4Christ

    All4Christ ✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙ Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    From the Council of Chalcedon, which is followed by orthodox (both small o and big O) Chalcedonian Christians:

    Following the holy fathers we confess one and the same our Lord Jesus Christ, and all teach as one that the same is perfect in Godhead, the same perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man; the same of a reasonable soul and body; consubstantial with the Father in Godhead and the same consubstantial with us in manhood; like us in all things except sin; begotten before the ages of the Father in Godhead; the same one in these last days, and for our salvation, born of Mary the Virgin Theotokos [Godbearer] in the manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, unique; recognized in two natures, unconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the difference of natures being by no means taken away because of the union, but rather the distinctive character of each nature being preserved, combining in one person and hypostasis; not divided or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only Begotten God, Word, Lord Jesus Christ; as the prophets of old, and the Lord Jesus Christ himself, have taught us in his regard, and as the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.

    https://www.theopedia.com/chalcedonian-creed

    ETA: I see that others already posted this...apologies for the duplicate posting of this Creed.
     
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  18. charsan

    charsan Charismatic Episcopal Church

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    True. With Bible alone doctrine there is no surprise for this kind of heresy combined with bad teaching
     
  19. charsan

    charsan Charismatic Episcopal Church

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    It's the poison of Bible alone that people think like this that Christ is not human and God
     
  20. devin553344

    devin553344 I believe in the Resurrection

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    With the Catholic belief that God is impeccable, I will have to interpret the Catechism as meaning that Jesus had a fully human body. He clearly did not have a human spirit. Not if I am to believe he had an impeccable nature.
     
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