Jesus Christ is a Father

[JohnD70X7]

Without realizing it most think of Jesus as not being a Father.

Isaiah 9:6 (AV)
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Non-Trinitarian Cultists try to use passages like this to disprove the Trinity and prove their cultic modalism (Jesus is all three in different modes). And most Christians who even try to defend the truth against the cult are at a loss to explain this verse.

• Jesus (preincarnate) is the Father of Creation (John 1:3 / Colossians 1:16 / Hebrews 1:2 / ISAIAH 44:24) ← which he did alone / by himself
• He is a Counsellor but he is not the Holy Spirit who he sends in his place (John 14:16)
  
• Jesus is the PRINCE of Peace, not the King of Peace (meaning he is a Son of the King)
• Jesus is not his own Father (Hebrews 10:5 / Hebrews 1:5 / John 1:14)

Being the father of something means the beginner / creator of something.

Luke 3:38 (AV)
38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Since God the Word is the Lone Creator in the beginning, Adam was the Son of God the Word. But not God the Father. That position belongs solely to Christ Jesus.

 

[public hermit]

Since God the Word is the Lone Creator in the beginning

Why is the 2nd Person lone Creator? Why wouldn't it be that God is Creator and all three Persons (Father, Son, and Spirit) are involved?

 

[disciple Clint]

Without realizing it most think of Jesus as not being a Father.

Isaiah 9:6 (AV)
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Non-Trinitarian Cultists try to use passages like this to disprove the Trinity and prove their cultic modalism (Jesus is all three in different modes). And most Christians who even try to defend the truth against the cult are at a loss to explain this verse.

• Jesus (preincarnate) is the Father of Creation (John 1:3 / Colossians 1:16 / Hebrews 1:2 / ISAIAH 44:24) ← which he did alone / by himself
• He is a Counsellor but he is not the Holy Spirit who he sends in his place (John 14:16)
  
• Jesus is the PRINCE of Peace, not the King of Peace (meaning he is a Son of the King)
• Jesus is not his own Father (Hebrews 10:5 / Hebrews 1:5 / John 1:14)

Being the father of something means the beginner / creator of something.

Luke 3:38 (AV)
38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Since God the Word is the Lone Creator in the beginning, Adam was the Son of God the Word. But not God the Father. That position belongs solely to Christ Jesus.

It is commonly understood that Jesus is priest, prophet, and king

 

[chevyontheriver]

Why is the 2nd Person lone Creator? Why wouldn't it be that God is Creator and all three Persons (Father, Son, and Spirit) are involved?

Time to apply the Athanasian Creed I think.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

@public hermit,

1) This goes back to the Old Testament especially passages that relate to "the angel of the Lord" which does not act like a normal angel. He or it is able to receive worship on behalf of Yahew (other angels say "don't bow down to me!"), he carries the name of God "inside him" etc.


2)It goes back to concepts like Logos, and Memra in Aramaic which describe things like a theophany or Parousia (Divine appearance). But also relates to things like God using an intermediary. But in a lot of ways this relates to experiential knowledge. Like passages about God walking in Eden with Adam and Eve, or hearing all decadence of Sodom he just didn't take that in with his omniscience, but went personally down there to take it in the scene Himself.


3) A lot of this stuff relates to the Stoic concepts of a Trinity Divine entity. Philo of Alexandria believed that some of the Greek ideas really explained the Revelation and Mystery of the God of the Old Testament (It was a kind of Providential thing, God allowed us to learn this stuff "Because it was the right season" to uncover such mysteries). So besides all the pagan stuff, some of the Greeks believed in: 1) some kind of Transcendent deity, or supreme power (something that is beyond/above creation), 2) a "mind fire" type spirit that is present in the universe (An imminent God), 3) a Logos, rational principle that is at work in the universe. A little foggy on the last one (It's hard to research using just free internet materials). I think it covers a lot of aspects of being able to see God's fingerprints and principals in Creation, but also theopanies and other stuff.

Anyway it looks like we kind of have a lot of the same stuff in Christianity except with heresies like Arianism etc. we have phrases in creeds to uphold the full divinity of the Son and equity in the Godhead in general.


4)As to why? I can only relate to the Eastern Orthodox saying that "God is a Community". God is love, and people tend to want other people to love. So while God the Father is beyond time, and God is self existent (which includes self sufficiency, He eternally generates the Son and Holy Spirit. And each of the Trinity has a job or function, even though they also work with or work together in unity etc.

 

[BrotherJJ]

Why is the 2nd Person lone Creator? Why wouldn't it be that God is Creator and all three Persons (Father, Son, and Spirit) are involved?

Here is one/my point of view:

(Jn 1:1) Father & Son are both God. Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4) All are involved in redemptions plan.

The Father sends the Son (Jn 3:16) the son leaves heavens realm (Jn 6:38). And via the authority given Him by God the Father (Jn 3:35) God the Son creates our universe:

Creator verses; Jn 1:3 & 10, Col 1:16 & 17, 1 Cor 8:6, Eph 3:9.

After God the Son become flesh & makes humanities sin atoning payment. He returns to the God the Father (Jn 16:28) & sits down at His right hand.

 

[public hermit]

Here is one/my point of view:

(Jn 1:1) Father & Son are both God. Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4) All are involved in redemptions plan.

The Father sends the Son (Jn 3:16) the son leaves heavens realm (Jn 6:38). And via the authority given Him by God the Father (Jn 3:35) God the Son creates our universe:

Creator verses; Jn 1:3 & 10, Col 1:16 & 17, 1 Cor 8:6, Eph 3:9.

After God the Son become flesh & makes humanities sin atoning payment. He returns to the God the Father (Jn 16:28) & sits down at His right hand.

That makes sense, on the face of it. I guess my two reservations are:

1. The NT passages that refer to the Word as Creator use words like through whom and by whom the world was created. In other words the world was created through the Word. This tracks the Genesis account in which God speaks creation into being. Plus, the Spirit is there as well. So, instead of the Word being sole-Creator, the Word is co-Creator.

2. It sounds like the Father is just observing creation, and not really involved. Or, perhaps the Son is a kind of demiurge. It sounds something like Plato's account, except the Son is doing more than merely fashioning material.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

2. It sounds like the Father is just observing creation, and not really involved. Or, perhaps the Son is a kind of demiurge. It sounds something like Plato's account, except the Son is doing more than merely fashioning material.

Well the Father in the Trinity, is the "Fountain Head" the First Cause of everything, even the other two persons of the Godhead. Much of the phraselogy has to protect againts things like Arianism, because our language wants to put things in time, even when talking about the God head, in trying to explain it is easy to make the Son and Holy Spirit sound very inferior to the Father etc.

 

[BrotherJJ]

That makes sense, on the face of it. I guess my two reservations are:

1. The NT passages that refer to the Word as Creator use words like through whom and by whom the world was created. In other words the world was created through the Word. This tracks the Genesis account in which God speaks creation into being. Plus, the Spirit is there as well. So, instead of the Word being sole-Creator, the Word is co-Creator.

2. It sounds like the Father is just observing creation, and not really involved. Or, perhaps the Son is a kind of demiurge. It sounds something like Plato's account, except the Son is doing more than merely fashioning material.

King James Bible
1 Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

I believe the AMP translators are helpful in understanding this passage.

Amplified Bible
1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, [a]who is the source of all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things [that have been created], and we [believers exist and have life and have been redeemed] through Him.

(MY PARSING:
1 Cor 8:6 (A) God the Father is First Cause, fountain of eternal existence. Vs 8:6 (B) and one Lord Jesus Christ, "by whom are all things", and we by him.

God the Son, is the agent by Whom the Father works within our universe. God the Son is preeminent in all things within our universe. Creation, redemption, resurrection, regeneration & preservation of all things within our universe He created)

Pay special attention vs 28!

1 Cor 15:
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

When all is comlpete/fulfilled (after the white throne). The Son will what? SUBJECT, ALL THINGS INCLUDING HIMSELF, unto the Father, that gave them to him.

Within our universe, Christ, will FOREVER remain King of Kings & Lord of Lords. Why? Because the Father, rewarded his faithful/obedient redemptive works. And has FOREVER GIVEN ALL THINGS WITHIN OUR UNIVERSE TO HIM.

Post #6 I left off at the Son ascending & sitting at God the Father's right hand.

At a time of God the Fathers choosing (Matt 24:36) The Son will return and finish/complete/subduing (1 Cor 15:28). And restore a fallen world. At completion of the overall plan/task decided before creation. Reread (1 Cor 15:28)

Christ proved at the cross, no matter the cost or size of the task. He will always adhere to & carry out the will/want/plans of God the Father. My Opinion Only.

 

[public hermit]

God the Son, is the agent by Whom the Father works within our universe. God the Son is preeminent in all things within our universe. Creation, redemption, resurrection, regeneration & preservation of all things within our universe He created)

Okay, my apologies. I completely misunderstood what you were saying. I agree with you.

 

[JohnD70X7]

Why is the 2nd Person lone Creator? Why wouldn't it be that God is Creator and all three Persons (Father, Son, and Spirit) are involved?

Isaiah 44:24 (AV)
24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Hebrews 1:2 (AV)
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Colossians 1:16 (AV)
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

John 1:3 (AV)
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Clearly this Lone Creator of all things created in the beginning was the preincarnate Jesus (alone by himself).

There is no other reference to either the Father or the Holy Spirit creating other than the Father creating the body of the Son. And the term "only begotten" means this is the only thing the Father created.

John 1:14 (AV)
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 3:16–18 (AV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Hebrews 10:5 (AV)
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Hebrews 1:5 (AV)
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

 

[JohnD70X7]

It is commonly understood that Jesus is priest, prophet, and king

King / Vassal under the Authority of the Father.

 

[JohnD70X7]

That makes sense, on the face of it. I guess my two reservations are:

1. The NT passages that refer to the Word as Creator use words like through whom and by whom the world was created. In other words the world was created through the Word. This tracks the Genesis account in which God speaks creation into being. Plus, the Spirit is there as well. So, instead of the Word being sole-Creator, the Word is co-Creator.

John 17:5 (AV)
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

• Jesus was equal with the Father
• before the world even existed

John 1:3 (AV)
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Isaiah 44:24 (NASB95)
24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, “I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone,

If the Father made all things through the Word then neither statement of scripture is true. The Word was and is just as viable a Person in the Godhead as the Father and was not some effect of his speech.

2. It sounds like the Father is just observing creation, and not really involved. Or, perhaps the Son is a kind of demiurge. It sounds something like Plato's account, except the Son is doing more than merely fashioning material.

Again, by myself all alone cannot refer to the actions of two or more individuals.

The Father is not just observing but is in Authority over all.

 

[JohnD70X7]

This also clues us in on how Jesus is the ONLY Son of the Father.

 

[JohnD70X7]

It also reveals Jesus separate human origin than ours.
He is human. 100% Human / 100% God in his Spirit (God the Word).
But he is not a Son of the first Adam as we all are.
He does not have the fallen nature of Adam and Eve.
He was a fully functional human embryo of the Father's one and only creation.
The Virgin Mary was his gestational surrogate.
Being born this way (rather than being created as a fully functioning adult on day one the
way the first Adam was) Jesus has all the LEGAL rights and heritage of a Son of man, Son of Abraham,
Son of David... but none of the actual fallen sin nature.
He is his own human race, population: Jesus. And he sacrificed that entire human race
to redeem those who would believe from our condemned human race.

 

[disciple Clint]

King / Vassal under the Authority of the Father.

Are you saying that Jesus is under the authority of the Father?

 

[Acts29]

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong his days

Psalm 89:26 He shall cry to Me, ‘You are my Father, My God, and the rock of my salvation.’
27 Also I will make Him My firstborn, The highest of the kings of the earth.
28 My mercy I will keep for Him forever, And My covenant shall stand firm with Him.
29 His seed also I will make to endure forever, And His throne as the days of heaven.
30 “If His sons forsake My law And do not walk in My judgments,
31 If they break My statutes And do not keep My commandments,
32 Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, And their iniquity with stripes.
33 Nevertheless My lovingkindness I will not utterly take from him, nor allow My faithfulness to fail.

Isaiah 63:16 Doubtless You are our Father, Though Abraham was ignorant of us, And Israel does not acknowledge us. You, O Lord, are our Father; Our Redeemer from Everlasting is Your name.

Revelation 21:6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

John 12:35 Then Jesus said to them, “A little while longer the light is with you. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you; he who walks in darkness does not know where he is going. 36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.”

John 14:9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Matthew 7:9 ... Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 10 Your kingdom come.
Whose kingdom are we waiting to come?

Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Galatians 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!”

Jesus said to go baptize in the "name" of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Not "names." Jesus is our Father. He is the Son of God. The Holy Spirit we receive is the Spirit of Jesus Himself. These are not three persons. Just one. Jesus. Of course, Jesus is not His own Father, but He is our Father. Does anyone in the church know these things?

 

[Pavel Mosko]

But he is not a Son of the first Adam as we all are.

He is because "What is not assumed cannot be redeemed/healed" as two different important Church fathers once said based on saint Paul in Romans and I think maybe 1 Corinthians.

You also are reading the Augustinian doctrine of Original Sin into the text (There is a difference between Ancestral Sin that everybody believes in the ancient Church and that).