I disagree... but go on.
It most certainly IS THE DESCRIPTION of elect/non-elect
when God is CONTRASTING "vessels of mercy" against
"vessels of wrath".
That answer is GIVEN in the TEXT. Several times,
you just refuse to accept it:
Rom 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil,
that the purpose of God according to election might stand,
not of works, but of him that calleth
Rom 9:15-16
For he saith to Moses,
I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17-18
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even
for this same purpose have I raised thee up,
that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:1921
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay,
of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22-24
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the
vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory
on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called,
not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
No, that is not ME saying that... it is GOD
You seem to have a very HARD TIME reading for comprehension:
Rom 9:16
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:18
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:22-23
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering
the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Joh 1:13
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man,
but of [the Will of] God.
Rom 9:19-20
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Joh 6:44
NO MAN can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me
draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;
and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me,
that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing,
but should raise it up again at the last day.
Your argument is with GOD (not me)
And it is terribly naive for you to (continue to) pretend that
God is
ONLY LOVE. God has many attributes (righteous,
and a consuming fire) which is
WHY those without a Savior
spend eternity in Hell.
Or to say it in a purely humanistic way... so that even you
might be able to understand.... if God was
ONLY LOVE then
nobody would be going to hell. And yet we find (in Scripture)
that some men were
NEVER MEANT to "
perceive" or "
understand"
the Gospel and some men were
NEVER MEANT to "
be converted"
or to "
have their sins forgiven".
If some men were
NEVER MEANT to "
have their sins forgiven"
then they were
NEVER MEANT to be saved (from your delusion
of a God that is
ONLY LOVE... and yet your reject Bible Truth)
Jim
We agree for the most part on the characteristics of the saved and not saved, but why are some saved and others not saved is the question you are not addressing and I am addressing.
As far as your understanding of Romans 9 I gave you:
Paul uses two teaching methods throughout Romans even secular philosophy classes will use Romans as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and most of the time giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. Paul’s method goes beyond just a general diatribe and follows closely to the diatribes used in the individual laments in the Psalms and throughout the Old Testament, which the Jewish Christians would have known extensively. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.
The main topic repeated extensively in Romans is the division in the Christian house churches in Rome between the Jews and Gentile Christians. You can just look up how many times Jews and gentiles are referred to see this as a huge issue.
The main question (a diatribe question) in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!
This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born, but remember in all of Paul’s diatribes he begins before, just after or before and just after with strong support for the wrong answer (this makes it more of a debate and giving the opposition the first shot as done in all diatribes).
Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau? Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?
If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common and others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?
This is the issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.
Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”
Who is the “one of you” is this Jewish Christian (elect) or Gentile Christian (elect) or is this “non-elect” individual (this “letter” is written to Christians and not non-Christians)?
Can Jews say they cannot be blamed for failing in their honored position or would it be the Gentiles that would say they cannot be blamed since they were not in the honored position?
Is it really significant when it comes to what really counts, if you are born a gentile or Jew in first century Rome?
Are there issues and problems with being a first century Jew and was this a problem for Paul?
The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison (the Gentiles).
How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.
Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the born Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.
Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!
The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.
If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.
Rm 9: 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?
This verse is not saying all the “vessels” created for a “common purpose” were created for destruction (they were not made from the start by the Potter “clay pigeons”). Everything that leaves the potter’s shop is of great quality. Those vessels for destruction can come from either the common group or the honor group, but God is being patient with them that will eventually be destroyed. The vessels God does develop great wrath against, will be readied for destruction, but how did they become worthy of destruction since they left the potter’s shop with his mark on them? Any vessel (honorable or common) that becomes damaged is not worthy of the potter’s signature and He would want it destroyed.
To understand this as Common vessels and special vessels look at the same idea using the same Greek words of Paul in 2 Tim 2: 20. There Paul even points out the common can become the honored vessel.
2 Tim. 2: 20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.
Important to note is the fact: the dishonorable vessel can cleanse themselves and become vessels of honor.
That is a short explanation, since you really need to study all of Romans especially chapters 9, 10 and 11. Also please look at individual laments in the Psalms and diatribes in general, I really cut those short.
