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Jesus Christ: A Ransom for ALL

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Christodoulos, Jul 14, 2017.

  1. Christodoulos

    Christodoulos Member

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    "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time " (1 Timothy 2:1-6)

    Paul here very clearly says that Jesus Christ's Death, is "a Ransom for ALL".

    I am well aware of the use of "all" and "world", etc, where there are cases the words do not mean "every", and must be taken it its context. As it does in John 12:19, where we read that "the world" had gone after Jesus, which cannot be understood as the "whole human race", but a "large number".

    However, in the passage from First Timothy, it is very clear who the "all" for whom Jesus is a "Ransom". Paul urges us to pray for "ALL our leaders", and "ALL in authority", which can only mean "every single person", as rulers of countries, and governments, and those in any authority. Paul then says, "it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires ALL people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth", which must include the ALL "rulers" and "those in authority", everywhere in the world. It is these same "ALL" that he goes on to say, that Jesus was a "Ransom" for their sins. There is no way, without twisting what is said, that anyone can conclude from the us of ALL here, that Paul was only speaking of "elect" leaders. He does not use this word here. The ALL can only refer to the "entire human" race, which includes those as leaders and in authority, throughout the entire world.

    The only people who will argue against this, are the sad Calvinists, who, rather than admit that their "theology" is flawed, and not in the Bible, will try to twist the plain meaning of what this passage teaches.

    There is another similar passage with Paul, which will further show his desire for the salvation for "everyone without exception".

    "King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know that you believe.” And Agrippa said to Paul, “In a short time would you persuade me to be a Christian?”And Paul said, “Whether short or long, I would to God that not only you but also ALL who hear me this day might become such as I am—except for these chains.” (Acts 26:27-29)

    Paul is here witnessing to king Agrippa, who said that Paul was trying to "make him a Christian". Paul replies, that it was his desire (and not doubt, God's), that not only the king became a believer in Jesus Christ, but ALL who where in the king's palace that day! except his chains. It is very clear to anyone who is of an honest mind, and with no preconceived doctrines, that Paul meant just that. EVERY single person who was there that day, and heard his preaching, he wanted to become followers of the Lord Jesus Christ! It would be forcing the meaning of the passage, to assume that only those who were "elect" were present at this time! No doubt some would be deluded to think so!!!
     
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  2. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Oooops.... no.

    Anyone who accepts ALL Scripture simply will not accept your conclusions, which contradict much Scripture.
     
  3. Christodoulos

    Christodoulos Member

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    absolute rubbish! Then prove where I am wrong. Give me the Greek or whatever! This passage is very clear to the HONEST Christian, which I stress, as I have read how the likes of John Calvin, and those who would rather follow him than the Holy Bible, have to say on this passage. how they invent things and twist it till it says what they want it to. SHAME!

    I fact, I challenge ANYONE on this forum to disprove what I have said from this passage. I am not here interested in other passages, but this one!
     
  4. Christodoulos

    Christodoulos Member

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    You guys who manipulate the Word of God to suite your warped theology, need the prayers! I give it as it is!
     
  5. Christodoulos

    Christodoulos Member

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    Typical Calvinist response. When they know that they are been caught out with their false teachings, they cannot respond like Christians are meant to. I repeat. I challenge ANY Calvinist (as they have the problem), to disprove these two passages from 1 Timothy and Acts, to be not what I have said. If you think I am wrong, then be big enough to prove your case!
     
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  6. Christodoulos

    Christodoulos Member

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    cannot defend your position from Scripture?
     
  7. Fish Catcher Jim

    Fish Catcher Jim Radically Saved

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    You should be. All scripture works together.
     
  8. Fish Catcher Jim

    Fish Catcher Jim Radically Saved

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    Have you ever noticed scripture does not say, test the doctrine but test the Spirit.
    It seems the flesh comes through statements like this.
     
  9. Fish Catcher Jim

    Fish Catcher Jim Radically Saved

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    Who so ever, All, everyone means just that.
     
  10. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Yes, Perfectly, and Necessarily.

    Most visitors to this forum did not come to believe Scripture,
    nor to find the truth,
    nor to proclaim the truth -
    rather, from the vast number and content of posts doing this> they came to defend some belief that directly contradicts Scripture.
    So,
    that being the case, as it is, they cannot even truly look at Scripture,
    as that dismisses their beliefs before they even post anything.
     
  11. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    I think if you look a little while, it is written to test the message also - verify it is in perfect harmony with all Scripture, even if an Apostle or an angel of LIGHT delivers it, and if it is different from Scripture,
    reject it.
    The Word and YHWH'S SPIRIT are in perfect agreement. No contradictions, except in the devices man makes up ....
     
  12. Fish Catcher Jim

    Fish Catcher Jim Radically Saved

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    To which scripture are you referring to?
    Blessings
    FCJ
     
  13. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Actually , and truthfully, all Scripture - Genesis through Revelation.

    All together. In Perfect Harmony. No contradictions.
     
  14. Fish Catcher Jim

    Fish Catcher Jim Radically Saved

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    Example 1John4:1-6 talks about testing the Spirit.
     
  15. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Yes,
    and multitudes have been deceived by false prophets teaching that alone, in isolation, without the truth of it, without the truth of all Scripture - but directlyi contrary to all Scripture they tell people
    what is basically "believe us!// believe OUR FEELINGS// believe YOUR FEELINGS" ...
    and thus the crowds on judgment day who Jesus tells go away, I NEVER KNEW YOU.

    Testing the Spirit is accurate and true and right , when proper, just like TORAH,
    but out of context, when used to deceive congregations, is horribly evil and deceptive.
     
  16. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    Multiple meanings to the use of the word all there.

    "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way.


    The above part simply means pray for all including all in authority so that christians can live peaceful lives in accordance with holiness., nothing to do with salvation.

    This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.


    This is also a good thing to pray for all people everywhere that God would be merciful to save them.
    God sent apostles on missionary journeys to preach the gospel to the whole world, they understood this quite well having personally experienced the power of God in gentile lands. However Paul also clearly understood only the elect will obtain the salvation, and it was for the elect that he labored, while the rest are blinded by Satan, study 2 Corinthians 4. And our labors are also not in vain as God has His elect all over this world, some from every tribe, tongue nation, people group will be saved, but God won't save them all.

    2 Timothy 2:10
    Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
     
  17. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    Here is another all, Christians share the manifestation of the Truth will all people. God has willed that the gospel of Christ, which means the world's salvation, Christ is the savior of all men, especially those who believe, ( the desire for God to save all people thing) be preached to the entire world.

    But the gospel remains veiled to those who are perishing, they are blinded by Satan, even as we believers were also once blinded by the devil to the gospel of Christ read Ephesians 2.
    But that blindness only God can choose to remove by shining His light in our hearts by making us born of God. If you are not first born again of the Spirit, then you will not be entering the kingdom of God and will remain blinded in your mind. And being born again by Him is not our choice, it is God's choice, the wind blows where He willeth, refer to John 3:7-8 about how those are born of the Spirit, it is God's will not our will to be born of God., refer to John 1:13

    2 Corinthians 4
    2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.

    3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,

    4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

    5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake.

    6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

    Satan can not prevent God from shining His light in our hearts. If Satan could then no one would believe in Christ, and God has foreordained some people, not all people, only those He foreknew to be conformed to the image of Christ, so that Christ is the first among many brothers,many children of God.

    Examples
    Hebrews 2
    10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:

    I will declare Your name to My brethren;
    In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”

    13 And again:

    “I will put My trust in Him.”

    And again:

    Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.



    Romans 8
    29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
     
  18. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    I generally agree with your position against limited atonement and for unlimited atonement.
    However - here you pretty much poisoned the well for a discussion by attacking people who believe other than you by calling them "sad Calvinists".

    Many who would be considered by you as Calvinists do not believe the doctrine of limited atonement as usually presented in TULIP.

    I happen to believe most of the teachings of the Calvinists even though I stand roundly against limited atonement.

    If it were properly presented - I believe limited atonement could stand. But that would require that it teach that Christ died for all and that the "limited" part only meant that only some will be saved.

    Again though - you won't get anywhere at all by setting yourself at odds just in the first post with those who have a different position than you do.

    Then again - you may not believe in the other 4 points of TULIP in which case you are not only anti-Calvinist you are anti-scripture.
     
  19. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    I would like to ask that you refrain from calling people who adhere to Calvinist theology as if we "follow him".

    We were saved by Jesus, through the work of the Holy Spirit in us.

    Thank you.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  20. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    How about these two verses:

    "ὥσπερ ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου οὐκ ἦλθεν διακονηθῆναι ἀλλὰ διακονῆσαι καὶ δοῦναι τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ λύτρον ἀντὶ πολλῶν." -Mt. 20:28 (GNT)

    "Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many." -Mt. 20:28 (KJV)

    "καὶ γὰρ ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου οὐκ ἦλθεν διακονηθῆναι ἀλλὰ διακονῆσαι καὶ δοῦναι τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ λύτρον ἀντὶ πολλῶν. " -Mk. 10:45 (GNT)

    "For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many." -Mk. 10:45 (KJV)

    "and to give his life a ransom for many:
    what he came to give was his life, which was his own, and than which nothing is more dear and precious: besides, his life was an uncommon one, being not only so useful to men, and entirely free from sin in itself, but was the life of the man Jesus, who is in union with the Son of God: this he came to "give", and did give into the hands of men, to the justice of God, and death itself; which giving, supposes it to be his own, and at his own disposal; was not forfeited by any act of his, nor was it forced from him, but freely laid down by him; and that as a "ransom", or redemption price for his people, to deliver them from the evil of sin, the bondage of Satan, the curses of a righteous law, from eternal death, and future wrath, and, in short, from all their enemies: which ransom price was paid "for" them in their room and stead, by Christ, as their substitute; who put himself in their legal place, and laid himself under obligation to pay their debts, and clear their scores, and redeem them from all their iniquities, and the evil consequences of them: and this he did "for many"; for as many as were ordained to eternal life; for as many as the Father gave unto him; for many out of every kindred, tongue, and people, and nation; but not for every individual of human nature; for many are not all."

    John Gill Commentary on Mt. 20:28

    "and to give his life a ransom for many;
    even for all the elect of God, to redeem them from sin, Satan, and the law; and secure them from the wrath of God, and eternal death; and this he has done, by laying down his life as the ransom price for them;"

    John Gill Commentary on Mk. 10:45

    "πολλῶν" meaning: πολύς,a \{pol-oos'}; 1) many, much, large

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
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