Jesus became the Word (LOGOS) John 1:1

[Daniel Marsh]

John 15:30 takes place before the Crucifixion and before resurrection so am thinking it was bestowed on Him from heaven. The baptism of Jesus included the presence of the Holy Spirit which may be of significance to this question.

John 14:26
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

John 15:26
“But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me.

4) Each member of the Trinity is God. The Father is God (John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2). The Son is God (John 1:1, 14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20). The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16).

The Son is the agent through whom the Father does the following works: the creation and maintenance of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17); divine revelation (John 1:1, 16:12-15; Matthew 11:27; Revelation 1:1); and salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42). The Father does all these things through the Son, who functions as His agent.

The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and Jesus’ works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus, the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.
What does the Bible teach about the Trinity? | GotQuestions.org

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I don’t believe Jesus Omniscience was unsuppressed at John 16:30 and neither do I believe He received all knowledge from God the Father or the Spirit at this point in His life because Jesus asks the Father if there is another way vs. taking the cup that had all our sins in it in the Garden of Gethsemane (Matthew 26:39). I believe John 16:30 is merely expressing how Jesus can know all things by asking the Father. But we have to realize that this is his disciples saying this in John 16:30. Jesus claimed He did not know the day or the hour of His own return, but only the Father knew (See Mark 13:32). We have to understand that his disciples misunderstood a lot. The disciples did not even understand Christ’s death and resurrection prior to the cross or Calvary.

Likely Jesus as man learned how to live as a man.
He also, learned how those around him understood the scriptures.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

To the rest of you, does it makes sense that God made all things through... HIMSELF?

Hebrews 1:3
The Son shows the glory of God. He is a perfect copy of God’s nature, and he holds everything together by his powerful command. The Son made people clean from their sins. Then he sat down at the right side of God, the Great One in heaven.

We may say the Son is the glue of the universe.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Those are the words of Christ. . .see below.

See post #59, following. . .I await your demonstration of its Biblical error:
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Clare said: There is only one God. . .in three separate persons.

Clare said: Contrare. . .the "church manta" is precisely what Jesus said:

There is only one God. . .in three separate persons.

1) We have separate persons (divine agents) in the work of salvation:

Three--Father, Son and Holy Spirit
at its beginning (Luke 1:35),
at the inauguration of Jesus' public ministry (Matthew 3:16-17) and
in the work of atonement (Hebrews 9:14),

the Holy Spirit completing the work (salvation) of the Father through the Son (Acts 2:38-39; Romans 8:26; 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 1:3-14, Ephesians 2:13-22; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:2),

the only way to enter the kingdom of the Father is through faith in the Son and regeneration by the Holy Spirit (John 3:1-15).

2) Jesus himself shows the personhoods of three distinct and separate divine agents:

The Son is sent by the Father, in the Father's name (John 5:23, 36, 43).

The Spirit is sent by the Father in the Son's name (John 14:26).

The Spirit is subject to the Son as well as to the Father, for the Spirit is sent by the Son as well as the Father (John 15:26, 16:7, 14:26).

One doesn't send oneself, one sends another who is separate from oneself.

Jesus shows three distinct and separate persons in the Trinity.

There is nothing in the "church manta" that is the opposite of what Jesus said.
Rather, the "church manta" is precisely what Jesus said.
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What is the "church manta"???

 

[Daniel Marsh]

No. You cannot post it here because you stated in another thread you are JW and JW’s are not allowed to post in the Christian section of the forums. Besides, I already posted many reasons in Scripture showing how Jesus is God. You simply ignored those points and you want to simply repeat what you want to believe from your own slanted view of the Scriptures, friend.

Friend another study they ignore is https://www.calvarychapelboston.com/Biblical Basis Trinity Bowman.pdf

 

[Daniel Marsh]

challenge for Jehovah's Witnesses here

 

[YeshuaFan]

"The word was God" has the meaning of that the word has the nature of God.

Colossians 2:9
King James Bible
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

None of them were called God in the full sense of the term, as ONLY Father, Jesus , and Holy Spirit are called that in Bible!

 

[Clare73]

Jesus is called the son of David and yet he is not the direct father of David… however… David is in the physical blood line of king David. This is why I can say Jesus is a son of Adam (i.e. the human part only).

But that contradicts the doctrine of the Trinity.

All the progeny of Adam are born with a sinful nature (Ephesians 2:3), under the condemnation of God (Romans 5:18).
Jesus was subject to neither.

In God's order, genealogy is reckoned through the father only.
In God's order, Jesus is not a descendant of Adam.

Jesus is even called the last Adam in Scripture.

Is that in regard to sameness of Adam, or in contrast to Adam?

Was he a sinner like Adam, or sinless as the opposite of Adam?

Do we inherit eternal life in Adam. . .or do we inherit the opposite from Adam?

This is because Jesus will one day resurrect bodily all the saints by the power of His resurrection. They will be resurrected after his likeness. But the point here is that
Jesus has to be of Adam. If not, then we are all doomed.

No, Jesus has to be human, of Mary, whose genealogy is not counted in God's order, where only the genealogy of the legal father is counted.

Check out the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. . .which emphatically denies that Jesus is a son of Adam.
Jesus is human by Mary, royal by Joseph and divine by God the Father.

 

[Clare73]

John 14:26
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

John 15:26
“But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me.

4) Each member of the Trinity is God. The Father is God (John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2). The Son is God (John 1:1, 14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20). The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16).

The Son is the agent through whom the Father does the following works: the creation and maintenance of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17); divine revelation (John 1:1, 16:12-15; Matthew 11:27; Revelation 1:1); and salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42).

The Father does all these things through the Son, who functions as His agent.
The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and Jesus’ works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus, the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.
What does the Bible teach about the Trinity? | GotQuestions.org

. . .

And the Holy Spirit is likewise the agent of the Son (John 15:26, John 16:7).

 

[Clare73]

Hebrews 1:3
The Son shows the glory of God. He is a perfect copy of God’s nature, and he holds everything together by his powerful command. The Son made people clean from their sins. Then he sat down at the right side of God, the Great One in heaven.

We may say the Son is the glue of the universe.

. . .

 

[Clare73]

What is the "church manta"???

It first appeared in post #56.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But that contradicts the doctrine of the Trinity.

All the progeny of Adam are born with a sinful nature (Ephesians 2:3), under the condemnation of God (Romans 5:18).
Jesus was subject to neither.

In God's order, genealogy is reckoned through the father only.
In God's order, Jesus is not a descendant of Adam.

Is that in regard to sameness of Adam, or in contrast to Adam?

Was he a sinner like Adam, or sinless as the opposite of Adam?

Do we inherit eternal life in Adam. . .or do we inherit the opposite from Adam?

No, Jesus has to be human, of Mary, whose genealogy is not counted in God's order, where only the genealogy of the legal father is counted.

Check out the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. . .which emphatically denies that Jesus is a son of Adam.
Jesus is human by Mary, royal by Joseph and divine by God the Father.

How did you get that out of what I said?
Again, you have a special way of taking what I say out of context to prove a point that I have already believed for a long time. I even told you that Luke 3 is the genealogy of Mary. I also have already believed for a long time that Matthew 1 is dealing with the Royal line through Joseph. So you are seeing something that is not there in what I said.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But that contradicts the doctrine of the Trinity.

All the progeny of Adam are born with a sinful nature (Ephesians 2:3), under the condemnation of God (Romans 5:18).
Jesus was subject to neither.

In God's order, genealogy is reckoned through the father only.
In God's order, Jesus is not a descendant of Adam.

Is that in regard to sameness of Adam, or in contrast to Adam?

Was he a sinner like Adam, or sinless as the opposite of Adam?

Do we inherit eternal life in Adam. . .or do we inherit the opposite from Adam?

No, Jesus has to be human, of Mary, whose genealogy is not counted in God's order, where only the genealogy of the legal father is counted.

Check out the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. . .which emphatically denies that Jesus is a son of Adam.
Jesus is human by Mary, royal by Joseph and divine by God the Father.

Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary. This is not news. Most Christians believe this (including me). So when I speak of the line of Mary in Luke 3, I am referring to how David is in that line (in Luke 3). You appeared to not have known this by what you said previously.

 

[Clare73]

How did you get that out of what I said?

"Jesus is a son of Adam (i.e. the human part only)."

Seems pretty clear to me.

Again, you have a special way of taking what I say out of context to prove a point that I have already believed for a long time. I even told you that Luke 3 is the genealogy of Mary. I also have already believed for a long time that Matthew 1 is dealing with the Royal line through Joseph. So you are seeing something that is not there in what I said.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

"Jesus is a son of Adam (i.e. the human part only)."

Seems pretty clear to me.

So Mary did not come from the line of Adam? Is that what you are saying? My point that you obviously ignored is that David is called the son of David. Yet Jesus is in the Royal line of David in Matthew 1, and Jesus is the blood line (physical descent) of David. Mary’s line can be traced all the way back to Adam. Mary did just pop into existence. She had DNA from her parents. This same DNA can be traced back to Adam.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sin from Adam did not carry over because of the seed of the woman (Mary). But that does not mean that the DNA of her parents that was not passed down to her (which in turn led to her giving birth to Christ physically). Jesus has the DNA of Mary’s parents.

 

[Clare73]

So Mary did not come from the line of Adam? Is that what you are saying? My point that you obviously ignored is that David is called the son of David. Yet Jesus is in the Royal line of David in Matthew 1, and Jesus is the blood line (physical descent) of David. Mary’s line can be traced all the way back to Adam. Mary did just pop into existence. She had DNA from her parents. This same DNA can be traced back to Adam.

Sin from Adam did not carry over because of the seed of the woman (Mary). But that does not mean that the DNA of her parents that was not passed down to her (which in turn led to her giving birth to Christ physically). Jesus has the DNA of Mary’s parents.

Sin from Adam did not carry over because of the seed of the woman (Mary).

And Jesus was not born with carried-over sin from Adam.

But that does not mean that the DNA of her parents that was not passed down to her (which in turn led to her giving birth to Christ physically). Jesus has the DNA of Mary’s parents.

In God's reckoning, as distinct from human reckoning by DNA, descent is determined only by the legal father, nothing else. . .the mother has nothing to do with it.

It's not about DNA. It's about God's reckoning in the Divine Court.
God reckons Jesus as no one's son but his, and that is the divine reality which governs human reality in relation to the descent of Jesus, "biologically" from God, his real Father, and legally from Joseph, his legal father.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And Jesus was not born with carried-over sin from Adam.

And where do you think I said that?
Jesus did not have any sin from Adam because He was born of the seed of the woman. But because Mary did not just pop into existence, and she had human parents whereby she shared their DNA all the way back to Adam, she would have passed this DNA (not sin) unto Jesus.

In God's reckoning, as distinct from human reckoning by DNA, descent is determined only by the legal father, nothing else. . .the mother has nothing to do with it.

It's not about DNA. It's about God's reckoning in the Divine Court.
God reckons Jesus as no one's son but his, and that is the divine reality which governs human reality in relation to the descent of Jesus, "biologically" from God, his real Father, and legally from Joseph, his legal father.

Okay. Listen very carefully. We are not in disagreement with Joseph not being the real father. Jesus had no father biologically. No Christian who believes in the virgin birth will fight you on that point and so why I bring it up?

What is odd is that you appear to think Mary is not connected to her relatives going all the way to Adam when it comes to her giving birth to the human aspect of Jesus. Yes. No sin was passed down from Adam to Jesus because the sin portion is only passed down by the male seed. So Mary was a blocker for sin and yet she was she was not a blocker of DNA.

I cannot be the first Christian to think your theory here is strange. You appear to believe the descendants of Mary in no way contributed to Jesus. However, the descendants are a part of Mary. That is why the genealogy was listed in Luke 3.

 

[jamiec]

Our Lord Jesus Christ
1. Learned the Text. (He had the entire Old Testament, the Tanakh memorized.)
2. Lived the Text. He was obedient to the entire Old Testament
3.Taught the Text (He always quoted the Old Testament, the Book of Deuteronomy the most, then the Book of Isaiah)
4. Prayed the Text. See His Prayers.
5. He Died the Text, (Compare Jesus' words with Psalm 22)
To sum it up. He was the Text. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1, this is what God says)
Psalm 119:97,98: "O how I love Your law! It is my meditation all the day..Your commandments make me wiser than my enemies, For they are ever mine."
Deut. 32:46,47 "Take to your heart all the Words with which I am warning you today, which you shall command your sons to observe carefully, even all the words of this Law. For It is not an idle word for you; indeed It is your life."
These two Passages are the very Words of God.
A few comments. Your Law, that refers to the Torah, or Pentateuch, the first 5 Books of Moses. The word Torah means Instruction. Your heart refers to your thoughts. So, Deuteronomy is telling the Israelites and us too to take in our thoughts all of God's Word!!!
This is why we only sing songs from the Bible. They are the very Words of God. God uses His Word to change lives. We actually sing both of those passages above.

The thread-title gets things exactly backwards. The Word is Eternal & Uncreated - the "man Christ Jesus" is the Logos "made flesh", in space-time, by taking our created & needy human nature "into Himself" (for lack of a better way to put what is, after all, forever beyond human understanding).

"The letter kills - it is the Spirit that gives life". The text of the Bible is not unimportant, but it is only a pointer to Something, to Someone, greater and more lasting than itself. It is a sign directing people to the Logos, as is the Church: but neither Church nor Bible is the Logos. Neither of them is the Christ to Whom they witness. Jesus Christ is not the Bible.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And Jesus was not born with carried-over sin from Adam.
In God's reckoning, as distinct from human reckoning by DNA, descent is determined only by the legal father, nothing else. . .the mother has nothing to do with it.

It's not about DNA. It's about God's reckoning in the Divine Court.
God reckons Jesus as no one's son but his, and that is the divine reality which governs human reality in relation to the descent of Jesus, "biologically" from God, his real Father, and legally from Joseph, his legal father.

Acts 2:29-30 is proof that when Jesus is called “Son of David,” (Matthew 9:27) he is being referred to in the fact that He was a physical descendant of David (involving Jesus Christ’s human side). Note: This does not mean Jesus had a biological father. It means that the line of Mary can be traced all the way back to King David, and then back to Adam in Luke chapter 3.

Acts of the Apostles 2:29-30

29 “Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;”​

So this passage is saying that David knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his loins (i.e. David’s descendants) according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ (i.e. the Messiah) to sit on his throne (i.e. David’s throne).

Here we read in Jeremiah’s prophecy of this:

Jeremiah 23:5-6

5 “Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.”​

I hope this helps, and may God bless you.