Jesus became the Word (LOGOS) John 1:1

[Clare73]

I did not make the rules of the thread.
But yes, I would consider your belief to be heretical enough whereby I would not have fellowship with you. Nobody can worship a false version of God.

Actually, it is 1 John 4:15 that says that.

1 John 4:15
“Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.”

This is talking about how Jesus (the Eternal Word) became flesh.

He is the Son of God in the sense that He was within the physical line of Mary going all the way back to Adam (Who was a son of God).

Jesus was not the son of Adam, Adam was not his father, God is the father of Jesus of Nazareth.

This does not prove Jesus was created or had a beginning.

Jesus was fully God and fully man.
The man Jesus was created, as all mankind is created, and had a beginning.
The God Jesus was not created.

Micah 5:2 says,
“But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.”

 

[Clare73]

I did not make the rules of the thread.
But yes, I would consider your belief to be heretical enough whereby I would not have fellowship with you. Nobody can worship a false version of God.



Actually, it is 1 John 4:15 that says that.

1 John 4:15
“Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.”

This is talking about how Jesus (the Eternal Word) became flesh. He is the Son of God in the sense that He was within the physical line of Mary going all the way back to Adam (Who was a son of God). This does not prove Jesus was created or had a beginning.

Adam is not Jesus' father, God is Jesus' father.

Jesus is fully God, who is not created. . .and fully man who was created in the womb of Mary.

Micah 5:2 says,
“But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.”

 

[GodLovesCats]

Yes. You and @GreekOrthodox and @Clare73 beautifully defended the Holy Apostolic Faith as confessed in the Nicene Creed and the CF.com Statement of Faith.

Edit: and @Minister Monardo, @YeshuaFan, and @Bible Highlighter who discovered that dude was a JW, a neo-Arian, so congratulations.

I actually have no idea what the Nicine Creed is. I just know what it means to be a Christian and JWs are, based on their refusal to claim Jesus is Lord, unqualified to be in that group.

Who is "that dued" you are talking about?

 

[Clare73]

I actually have no idea what the Nicine Creed is. I just know what it means to be a Christian and JWs are, based on their refusal to claim Jesus is Lord, unqualified to be in that group.

Who is "that dued" you are talking about?

Eyeball, Earl Dumarest

 

[The Liturgist]

Eyeball, Earl Dumarest

That’s right @ChristianForCats , I was talking about @EarlDumarest . Whose nickname lends itself to puns which are too obvious.

As for the Nicene Creed, see that link at the top right of the page that says Statement Of Faith? It is there, with scriptural citations. It was accepted at the ecumenical council of Nicea in 325 and slightly modified at the Council of Constantinople in 381. It is basically a summary of beliefs.

Some denominations, like the Christian Church / Disciples of Christ, manage to keep the faith while refusing to use the Nicene Creed, despite teaching basically everything on it, while ignoring the logical paradox that “I have no creed” is a creed, since definitionally a creed is merely a statement of belief. It’s a bit like saying “I am lying to you,” in that obviously the statement is logically defective.*

*Most people do not realize that St. Paul’s remark “All cretans are liars” is a tongue in cheek reference to a famous statement by the Cretan philosopher Epimenides.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus was not the son of Adam, Adam was not his father, God is the father of Jesus of Nazareth.

Jesus was fully God and fully man.
The man Jesus was created, as all mankind is created, and had a beginning.
The God Jesus was not created.

Jesus is called the Son of David in Scripture several times.

Here is one example:

Matthew 21:9
And the multitudes that went before, and that followed,cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.

Does that mean Jesus is literally the direct father of David? No.
So if this means people can call Jesus the Son of David, and he is not a direct father of Jesus, then that means I can call Jesus the son of Adam because Jesus was in the direct line or lineage of Adam. It does not mean Jesus was the direct father of Adam.

Also, Jesus calls Zacchaeus a son of Abraham in Luke 19:8-9. Does it mean he is literally the direct father of Abraham? No. But it was not wrong for Jesus to say that he was the son of Abraham, either.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Adam is not Jesus' father, God is Jesus' father.

Jesus is fully God, who is not created. . .and fully man who was created in the womb of Mary.

You have a special way of taking what I say out of context. I DO NOT BELIEVE in the false belief that says: Jesus is a demi-god (i.e. The false belief that says that the person of the Trinity known as the Word in John 1:1 had an origin). That is a false belief!

I believe the second person of the Trinity (i.e. the Living Word) existed always from eternity’s past. Micah 5:2 establishes that the Word (of whom we call Jesus today) existed from everlasting (Meaning: FOREVER). The triune God existed always. ALWAYS. FOREVER. There was not a point that God did not exist.

The fully man part was created in the womb of Mary.

Do you understand? Are we on the same page?

 

[YeshuaFan]

That’s right @ChristianForCats , I was talking about @EarlDumarest . Whose nickname lends itself to puns which are too obvious.

As for the Nicene Creed, see that link at the top right of the page that says Statement Of Faith? It is there, with scriptural citations. It was accepted at the ecumenical council of Nicea in 325 and slightly modified at the Council of Constantinople in 381. It is basically a summary of beliefs.

Some denominations, like the Christian Church / Disciples of Christ, manage to keep the faith while refusing to use the Nicene Creed, despite teaching basically everything on it, while ignoring the logical paradox that “I have no creed” is a creed, since definitionally a creed is merely a statement of belief. It’s a bit like saying “I am lying to you,” in that obviously the statement is logically defective.*

*Most people do not realize that St. Paul’s remark “All cretans are liars” is a tongue in cheek reference to a famous statement by the Cretan philosopher Epimenides.

JW are holding to heretical views regarding who Jesus is, and how God saves us!

 

[Clare73]

That’s right @ChristianForCats , I was talking about @EarlDumarest . Whose nickname lends itself to puns which are too obvious.

As for the Nicene Creed, see that link at the top right of the page that says Statement Of Faith? It is there, with scriptural citations. It was accepted at the ecumenical council of Nicea in 325 and slightly modified at the Council of Constantinople in 381. It is basically a summary of beliefs.

Some denominations, like the Christian Church / Disciples of Christ, manage to keep the faith while refusing to use the Nicene Creed, despite teaching basically everything on it, while ignoring the logical paradox that “I have no creed” is a creed, since definitionally a creed is merely a statement of belief. It’s a bit like saying “I am lying to you,” in that obviously the statement is logically defective.*

*Most people do not realize that St. Paul’s remark “All cretans are liars” is a tongue in cheek reference to a famous statement by the Cretan philosopher Epimenides.

. . .

 

[Clare73]

Jesus is called the Son of David in Scripture several times.

Yes, because the legal father of Jesus was Joseph, who was not his biological father.
Genealogy was based on the legal father.

Here is one example:

Matthew 21:9
And the multitudes that went before, and that followed,cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.

Does that mean Jesus is literally the direct father of David? No.
So if this means people can call Jesus the Son of David, and he is not a direct father of Jesus, then that means I can call Jesus the son of Adam because Jesus was in the direct line or lineage of Adam. It does not mean Jesus was the direct father of Adam.

Also, Jesus calls Zacchaeus a son of Abraham in Luke 19:8-9. Does it mean he is literally the direct father of Abraham? No. But it was not wrong for Jesus to say that he was the son of Abraham, either.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, because the legal father of Jesus was Joseph, who was not his biological father.
Genealogy was based on the legal father.

Yes, it’s true that Jesus is in the royal legal line of David (Note: This royal line is mentioned in Matthew 1). However, Jesus is also in the biological physical line of King David, too (Through Mary that goes all the way back to Adam). We see the physical line of Mary to Adam in…

Luke chapter 3:

Note the highlighted word “David” in the physical genealogy of Christ (that is the line of Mary).

This means Jesus is in the physical line of David, too (and not just the Royal line as mentioned in Matthew 1).

Source:
Luke 3 KJV

 

[Clare73]

You have a special way of taking what I say out of context. I DO NOT BELIEVE in the false belief that says: Jesus is a demi-god (i.e. The false belief that says that the person of the Trinity known as the Word in John 1:1 had an origin). That is a false belief!

I believe the second person of the Trinity (i.e. the Living Word) existed always from eternity’s past. Micah 5:2 establishes that the Word (of whom we call Jesus today) existed from everlasting (Meaning: FOREVER). The triune God existed always. ALWAYS. FOREVER. There was not a point that God did not exist.

The fully man part was created in the womb of Mary.

Do you understand? Are we on the same page?

Ya' lost me there!

Within the physical line of Mary would not make Jesus a son of Adam.

 

[Clare73]

Yes, it’s true that Jesus is in the royal legal line of David (Note: This royal line is mentioned in Matthew 1). However, Jesus is also in the biological physical line of King David, too (Through Mary that goes all the way back to Adam).

Agreed. . .

Jesus was legally of the royal line of David through Solomon by Joseph,
and by blood of the line of David through Nathan by Mary.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Then he wasn't WITH God?

The word "with" has the meaning of "face to face" Sources: Thayer's Lexicon, Montgomery translation New Testament.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Many were referred to a God (caps don't exist in Heb/Grk).
Angels, Moses, and the Judges of Israel were.
Did that mean they joined the 'Godhood'?

"The word was God" has the meaning of that the word has the nature of God.

Colossians 2:9
King James Bible
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

https://www.calvarychapelboston.com/Biblical Basis Trinity Bowman.pdf

 

[Daniel Marsh]

None refer to them as Logos (John 1:1).

Logos in Greek philosophy being the First Cause, the great Intelligence and Reason behind the universe.

What does that have to do with referring to the Word being WITH God TWICE?

"

1. In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds.

A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term Logos around600 B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates achanging universe. This word was well suited to John's purpose inJohn 1." Thayer and Smith. "Greek Lexicon entry for Logos". "The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon". . 1999.
Logos Meaning in Bible - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Luke 2:52 says, “And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.”

Jesus increased in wisdom. Wisdom is a form of knowledge. How can Jesus increase in knowledge if He already has all knowledge? The only solution it the one that I presented with Scripture (that explains it).

As for John 16:30: Well, I believe this verse shows how Christ would have known all things based on the fact that He has access to the Father. I believe after Christ’s resurrection, there would have been no more point for Christ to suppress His Omniscience as God. For Christ would have already fulfilled His mission in being our substitute in dying for our sins, and in conquering death (the penalty of sin).

He emptied himself Phil 4?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Ya' lost me there!

Within the physical line of Mary would not make Jesus a son of Adam.

Jesus is called the son of David and yet he is not the direct father of David… however… David is in the physical blood line of king David. This is why I can say Jesus is a son of Adam (i.e. the human part only). Jesus is even called the last Adam in Scripture. This is because Jesus will one day resurrect bodily all the saints by the power of His resurrection. They will be resurrected after his likeness. But the point here is that Jesus has to be of Adam. If not, then we are all doomed.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Maybe I need to remind you but Jehovah created the world THROUGH Jesus.

Heb 1:2- whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe

Hebrews 1
Easy-to-Read Version
God Has Spoken Through His Son
1 In the past God spoke to our people through the prophets. He spoke to them many times and in many different ways. 2 And now in these last days, God has spoken to us again through his Son. He made the whole world through his Son. And he has chosen his Son to have all things. 3 The Son shows the glory of God. He is a perfect copy of God’s nature, and he holds everything together by his powerful command. The Son made people clean from their sins. Then he sat down at the right side[a] of God, the Great One in heaven. 4 The Son became much greater than the angels, and God gave him a name that is much greater than any of their names.

5 God never said this to any of the angels:

“You are my Son.
Today I have become your Father.”

God also never said about an angel,

“I will be his Father,
and he will be my son.”

6 And then, when God presents his firstborn Son to the world, he says,

“Let all God’s angels worship him.”[c]

7 This is what God said about the angels:

“He changes his angels into winds[d]
and his servants into flaming fire.”

8 But this is what he said about his Son:

“God, your kingdom will last forever and ever.
You use your authority for justice.
9 You love what is right and hate what is wrong.
So God, your God, has chosen you,
giving you more honor and joy than anyone like you.”

10 God also said,

“O Lord, in the beginning you made the earth,
and your hands made the sky.
11 These things will disappear, but you will stay.
They will all wear out like old clothes.
12 You will fold them up like a coat,
and they will be changed like clothes.
But you never change,
and your life will never end.”

13 And God never said this to an angel:

“Sit at my right side
until I put your enemies under your power.[e]”

14 All the angels are spirits who serve God and are sent to help those who will receive salvation.

Footnotes
Hebrews 1:3 right side The place of honor and authority (power).
Hebrews 1:6 world This may mean the world into which Jesus was born (see Lk. 2:1-14), or it may have the same meaning as in Heb. 2:5—the world to come, to which the risen Christ is presented as king (see Php. 2:9-11).
Hebrews 1:6 “Let … him” These words are found in Deut. 32:43 in the ancient Greek version and in a Hebrew scroll from Qumran.
Hebrews 1:7 winds This can also mean “spirits.”
Hebrews 1:13 until I put … power Literally, “until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”
Philemon 1