Jesus atoned all sins. Why do we pray for forgiveness?

[AnticipateHisComing]

There has been a bit of discussion on Jesus death and forgiveness. I wish to explore the multiple aspects of atonement vs. forgiveness. People seem hung up on what Jesus accomplished on the cross and argue the purpose/completeness of his sacrifice.

I agree with Hebrews that Jesus' death atoned for all the sins of all that will ever be in heaven, those that lived before and after his life.

Hebrews 10:12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.​

Further, I believe that Jesus with his action on the cross gives those with faith a credit of righteousness such that they will not be condemed on judgement day, but will receive eternal life.

Romans 4:23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone,24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

Romans 5:21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
​

So if all our sins have all been atoned for, why do we still need to be forgiven for them? I think one hint to the answer lies in how many times Jesus died vs. how many times we ask for forgiveness. Jesus died once. We pray repeatedly for forgiveness. Now consider there is only one "judgement day" but there are many days where people can be judged. I say the greatest part of Jesus death is the atonement of sins on judgement day such that the sins of the saved will not be remembered or counted against them.

Now a topic not discussed much in the Christian Church. God does judge us in this life for our sins.

Hebrews 12:4[ God Disciplines His Children ] In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,
“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, 6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”

1 Corinthians 11:29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment. 32 Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world.

James 5:14 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.
​

So if we continue to sin in this age multiple times, we continue to pray multiple times for forgiveness such that if God does judge us with discipline, we will be "healed". Now the Catholics that hold to the importance of a last rite before someone dies will not buy into this explanation, but the millions of Catholics in heaven that died without their last sin forgiven by a priest refute their doctrine.


In summary, I find it unfortunate that scripture does not have a unique word for atonement of sins on judgement day vs. forgiveness of sins and the consequences of them in this age. I think many are confused when studying forgiveness if they do not consider the two places of God's wrath, first in this age and lastly on judgement day. I try to use atonement for the eternal consequences of sin and forgiveness for the earthly consequences of sin, but scripture interchanges the use of the words.

My answer to the OP question is that Jesus atoned for the eternal consequences of sin, we pray to God to forgive the earthly consequences of sin. The best support for my position is in Jesus words where he petitioned God the Father himself to forgive the soldiers that put him to death. Obviously, if they did not know what they were doing and never came to faith, their sins will be counted against them on judgement day, so Jesus had to be considering earthly consequences of them putting God's Son to death.

Feel free to disagree with my argument, but please then propose your answer to:

If Jesus died for all sins, why do we repeatedly pray to God for forgiveness?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

but the millions of Catholics in heaven that died without their last sin forgiven by a priest refute their doctrine.

.... perhaps..... Have you heard from any of them ? (legitimately) (in line with Scripture)..?
Are you trying to be in line with Scripture, or different, separate, or opposed to Scripture ?

Or in this section, are you asking what someone's theology says - is that what your question(s) are for ?

 

[stuart lawrence]

There has been a bit of discussion on Jesus death and forgiveness. I wish to explore the multiple aspects of atonement vs. forgiveness. People seem hung up on what Jesus accomplished on the cross and argue the purpose/completeness of his sacrifice.

I agree with Hebrews that Jesus' death atoned for all the sins of all that will ever be in heaven, those that lived before and after his life.

Hebrews 10:12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.​

Further, I believe that Jesus with his action on the cross gives those with faith a credit of righteousness such that they will not be condemed on judgement day, but will receive eternal life.

Romans 4:23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone,24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

Romans 5:21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
​

So if all our sins have all been atoned for, why do we still need to be forgiven for them? I think one hint to the answer lies in how many times Jesus died vs. how many times we ask for forgiveness. Jesus died once. We pray repeatedly for forgiveness. Now consider there is only one "judgement day" but there are many days where people can be judged. I say the greatest part of Jesus death is the atonement of sins on judgement day such that the sins of the saved will not be remembered or counted against them.

Now a topic not discussed much in the Christian Church. God does judge us in this life for our sins.

Hebrews 12:4[ God Disciplines His Children ] In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,
“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, 6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”

1 Corinthians 11:29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment. 32 Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world.

James 5:14 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.
​

So if we continue to sin in this age multiple times, we continue to pray multiple times for forgiveness such that if God does judge us with discipline, we will be "healed". Now the Catholics that hold to the importance of a last rite before someone dies will not buy into this explanation, but the millions of Catholics in heaven that died without their last sin forgiven by a priest refute their doctrine.


In summary, I find it unfortunate that scripture does not have a unique word for atonement of sins on judgement day vs. forgiveness of sins and the consequences of them in this age. I think many are confused when studying forgiveness if they do not consider the two places of God's wrath, first in this age and lastly on judgement day. I try to use atonement for the eternal consequences of sin and forgiveness for the earthly consequences of sin, but scripture interchanges the use of the words.

My answer to the OP question is that Jesus atoned for the eternal consequences of sin, we pray to God to forgive the earthly consequences of sin. The best support for my position is in Jesus words where he petitioned God the Father himself to forgive the soldiers that put him to death. Obviously, if they did not know what they were doing and never came to faith, their sins will be counted against them on judgement day, so Jesus had to be considering earthly consequences of them putting God's Son to death.

Feel free to disagree with my argument, but please then propose your answer to:

If Jesus died for all sins, why do we repeatedly pray to God for forgiveness?

When I was a child, I could be naughty at times. I often broke my parents rules. But I always told them I was sorry afterwards for doing so. I didn't tell them I was sorry, because I was afraid they would throw me out if the house if I didn't repent, I knew they wouldn't. I said sorry because i loved them, and it was the only way to get my peace back, and have proper, healthy relationship restored with them

 

[stuart lawrence]

There has been a bit of discussion on Jesus death and forgiveness. I wish to explore the multiple aspects of atonement vs. forgiveness. People seem hung up on what Jesus accomplished on the cross and argue the purpose/completeness of his sacrifice.

I agree with Hebrews that Jesus' death atoned for all the sins of all that will ever be in heaven, those that lived before and after his life.

Hebrews 10:12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.​

Further, I believe that Jesus with his action on the cross gives those with faith a credit of righteousness such that they will not be condemed on judgement day, but will receive eternal life.

Romans 4:23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone,24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

Romans 5:21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
​

So if all our sins have all been atoned for, why do we still need to be forgiven for them? I think one hint to the answer lies in how many times Jesus died vs. how many times we ask for forgiveness. Jesus died once. We pray repeatedly for forgiveness. Now consider there is only one "judgement day" but there are many days where people can be judged. I say the greatest part of Jesus death is the atonement of sins on judgement day such that the sins of the saved will not be remembered or counted against them.

Now a topic not discussed much in the Christian Church. God does judge us in this life for our sins.

Hebrews 12:4[ God Disciplines His Children ] In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,
“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, 6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”

1 Corinthians 11:29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment. 32 Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world.

James 5:14 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.
​

So if we continue to sin in this age multiple times, we continue to pray multiple times for forgiveness such that if God does judge us with discipline, we will be "healed". Now the Catholics that hold to the importance of a last rite before someone dies will not buy into this explanation, but the millions of Catholics in heaven that died without their last sin forgiven by a priest refute their doctrine.


In summary, I find it unfortunate that scripture does not have a unique word for atonement of sins on judgement day vs. forgiveness of sins and the consequences of them in this age. I think many are confused when studying forgiveness if they do not consider the two places of God's wrath, first in this age and lastly on judgement day. I try to use atonement for the eternal consequences of sin and forgiveness for the earthly consequences of sin, but scripture interchanges the use of the words.

My answer to the OP question is that Jesus atoned for the eternal consequences of sin, we pray to God to forgive the earthly consequences of sin. The best support for my position is in Jesus words where he petitioned God the Father himself to forgive the soldiers that put him to death. Obviously, if they did not know what they were doing and never came to faith, their sins will be counted against them on judgement day, so Jesus had to be considering earthly consequences of them putting God's Son to death.

Feel free to disagree with my argument, but please then propose your answer to:

If Jesus died for all sins, why do we repeatedly pray to God for forgiveness?

BTW
If Jesus didn't die for all your sins, you MUST live your Christian life under a righteousness of observing the law. Paul repeatedly states you do not

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

.... perhaps..... Have you heard from any of them ? (legitimately) (in line with Scripture)..?
Are you trying to be in line with Scripture, or different, separate, or opposed to Scripture ?

Or in this section, are you asking what someone's theology says - is that what your question(s) are for ?

Catholics place great importance to the forgiveness of sins by priests as part of their salvation. Mathematically many Catholics have committed sins between their last confession and their death. Catholic doctrine does not send them to hell though. Their doctrine is contradicting and only supports my statement on the misunderstanding of forgiveness.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

BTW
If Jesus didn't die for all your sins, you MUST live your Christian life under a righteousness of observing the law. Paul repeatedly states you do not

I have argued recently against an opinion that forgiveness from God the Father is what save us, not Jesus death. My statement is that all forgiveness is based on the atonement from Jesus' death.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

When I was a child, I could be naughty at times. I often broke my parents rules. But I always told them I was sorry afterwards for doing so. I didn't tell them I was sorry, because I was afraid they would throw me out if the house if I didn't repent, I knew they wouldn't. I said sorry because i loved them, and it was the only way to get my peace back, and have proper, healthy relationship restored with them

When you were a child and broke your father's rules did you ever get disciplined for it? I agree you are not thrown out of the house and continue to forever be his child.

 

[stuart lawrence]

When you were a child and broke your father's rules did you ever get disciplined for it? I agree you are not thrown out of the house and continue to forever be his child.

Oh yes, I got chastised for my own good

 

[stuart lawrence]

Same as God chastises us:

My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline
And do not lose heart when he rebukes you
Because the Lord disciplines those he loves
As he punishes everyone he accepts as a son
Endure hardship as discipline. God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his Father?
Heb12:5-7

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Why did the sacrificial system require a blood sacrifice?
(a start anyway)
"
Question: "Why did the sacrificial system require a blood sacrifice?"

Answer: The whole of the Old Testament, every book, points toward the Great Sacrifice that was to come—that of Jesus’ sacrificial giving of His own life on our behalf. Leviticus 17:11 is the Old Testament’s central statement about the significance of blood in the sacrificial system. God, speaking to Moses, declares: “For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.”
...
..
.
"

 

[1stcenturylady]

Why did the sacrificial system require a blood sacrifice?
(a start anyway)
"
Question: "Why did the sacrificial system require a blood sacrifice?"

Answer: The whole of the Old Testament, every book, points toward the Great Sacrifice that was to come—that of Jesus’ sacrificial giving of His own life on our behalf. Leviticus 17:11 is the Old Testament’s central statement about the significance of blood in the sacrificial system. God, speaking to Moses, declares: “For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.”
...
..
.
"

Right, and that is why the sign of our New Covenant is the "Cup of the New Covenant" symbolizing Christ's blood, the only thing that can wash away our sin. 1 Corinthians 11:25

 

[tturt]

Considering Yeshua's sacrifice and resurrection, why would a believer hesitate to asks Yahweh for forgiveness?

Yeshua told Peter to forgive seventy times seven - and that was between 2 individuals (Matt 18:21:22).
We're told to "... not the sun go down upon your wrath:" (Eph 4:26). An example of taking care of things daily.

Yahweh hates sin. "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from
all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (II Cor 7:1). Things that He considers "abomination unto him" "A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. (Prov 6). A proud look! Proud looks are praised by many today and that's before you get to the other things listed.

The Lord's prayer - pray like this - includes "...forgive us our sins, as we have forgiven those who have sinned against us." (Matt 6).

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (I John 1:9).

Yahweh is holy - think we need to remember that and let Him cleanse us again.

 

[bling]

There has been a bit of discussion on Jesus death and forgiveness. I wish to explore the multiple aspects of atonement vs. forgiveness. People seem hung up on what Jesus accomplished on the cross and argue the purpose/completeness of his sacrifice.

I agree with Hebrews that Jesus' death atoned for all the sins of all that will ever be in heaven, those that lived before and after his life.

Hebrews 10:12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.​

Further, I believe that Jesus with his action on the cross gives those with faith a credit of righteousness such that they will not be condemed on judgement day, but will receive eternal life.

Romans 4:23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone,24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

Romans 5:21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
​

So if all our sins have all been atoned for, why do we still need to be forgiven for them? I think one hint to the answer lies in how many times Jesus died vs. how many times we ask for forgiveness. Jesus died once. We pray repeatedly for forgiveness. Now consider there is only one "judgement day" but there are many days where people can be judged. I say the greatest part of Jesus death is the atonement of sins on judgement day such that the sins of the saved will not be remembered or counted against them.

Now a topic not discussed much in the Christian Church. God does judge us in this life for our sins.

Hebrews 12:4[ God Disciplines His Children ] In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,
“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, 6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”

1 Corinthians 11:29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment. 32 Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world.

James 5:14 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.
​

So if we continue to sin in this age multiple times, we continue to pray multiple times for forgiveness such that if God does judge us with discipline, we will be "healed". Now the Catholics that hold to the importance of a last rite before someone dies will not buy into this explanation, but the millions of Catholics in heaven that died without their last sin forgiven by a priest refute their doctrine.


In summary, I find it unfortunate that scripture does not have a unique word for atonement of sins on judgement day vs. forgiveness of sins and the consequences of them in this age. I think many are confused when studying forgiveness if they do not consider the two places of God's wrath, first in this age and lastly on judgement day. I try to use atonement for the eternal consequences of sin and forgiveness for the earthly consequences of sin, but scripture interchanges the use of the words.

My answer to the OP question is that Jesus atoned for the eternal consequences of sin, we pray to God to forgive the earthly consequences of sin. The best support for my position is in Jesus words where he petitioned God the Father himself to forgive the soldiers that put him to death. Obviously, if they did not know what they were doing and never came to faith, their sins will be counted against them on judgement day, so Jesus had to be considering earthly consequences of them putting God's Son to death.

Feel free to disagree with my argument, but please then propose your answer to:

If Jesus died for all sins, why do we repeatedly pray to God for forgiveness?

Atonement and forgiveness are huge topics taking lots of words to explain.

If Christ paid for all your sins on the cross there would be nothing for God to forgive and if God forgives all your sins there is nothing Christ needs to pay.

If your sins are forgiven what more is needed (which you answered with this question: “When you were a child and broke your father's rules did you ever get disciplined for it?”

Loving Parents can easily forgive you, but repeat rebellious disobedient children also need to correctly accept Loving disciplined if at all possible.

Atonement process has to do with our discipline, with forgiveness coming afterwards like with Lev. 5.

Just a little on forgiveness:

It is true: “Today Christians are not forgiven without invoking the sacrifice of Jesus”, but prior to the cross people were forgiven.

Under the Old Law prior to Christ going to the cross, there was only atonement for “minor” sins (unintentional sins and sins directly against a brother to give reconciliation). Rebellious disobedience directly against God had no atonement process and required severe punishments (death or banishment). I listed scriptures showing God forgiving sins prior to Christ going to the cross, but there are lots of examples like King David, Moses, the rebellious people of Israel, Nineveh, and some prophets and Jesus also forgave people their sins prior to go to the cross. There is no mention of Christ atoning for these sins and in fact from Ro. 3:25 it says God pasted over these forgiven sins prior to the cross and is shown in contrast to the atonement now available through the cross.

“Salvation” happens with God forgiving sins, so where some sins forgiven prior to the cross and if so how were they forgiven?

The prophets tell us:

Ezk. 18: 30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

Isaiah 30:15 This is what the Sovereign Lord, the Holy One of Israel, says: “In repentance and rest is your salvation, in quietness and trust is your strength, but you would have none of it

Psalm 130:

Out of the depths I cry to you, Lord;2 Lord, hear my voice. Let your ears be attentive

to my cry for mercy. 3 If you, Lord, kept a record of sins,

Lord, who could stand? 4 But with you there is forgiveness,

so that we can, with reverence, serve you.

Psalm 103: 2Praise the Lord, my soul and forget not all his benefits—3 who forgives all your sins

and heals all your diseases, 4 who redeems your life from the pit

and crowns you with love and compassion,

Micah 7:18 Who is a God like you, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? You do not stay angry forever but delight to show mercy.

The Old Testament does not talk about a “later time” when forgiven sinner will have his sins taken away, but talks about God forgiving them at the time of their repentance, so in the Old Testament times God “past over” forgiven sins and did not punish the sinner, while after the cross a person could be punished (disciplined).

Paul explains this “passing over” by contrasting it with what we have after the cross in Romans 3:25:

RSV Ro. 3: 25 whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins

Or; God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished... (Rom. 3:25, 1984 NIV)

This really gets into the large subject of atonement, but I want to avoid that discussion for now and just look at what “passed over” and “former sins” means.

“Former sins” or “sins committed beforehand” in this passage are being contrasted with the handling of sins after the cross with the blood and sacrifice of Christ. That contrast would mean these “former sins” have to be sins committed before the cross.

“Passed over” is not the same as held in storage or rolled forward, but were passed over: not dealt with and God moved on. This would not be all sins prior to the cross, but sins forgiven by God, but not “punished” (the better translation for this Greek word translated “punished” would be disciplined.) A parent disciplines their children and should not be punishing their children unless they totally refuse just/fair loving discipline. There was lots of “punishments” for sins in the OT, but there was forgiveness for a sincere repentant person accepting of God’s charity.

If as some suggest: “Sins prior to the cross were handled to very same way sins after the cross were handled”, there would be no contrast and God would not have “past over” these sins and they would not have been “left unpunished”, but as some believe; God punished Christ for these sins.

Today we have the privilege of being severely disciplined for our sins and God forgives them, while prior to the cross God forgave repentant sinners, but did not discipline them.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

If Christ paid for all your sins on the cross there would be nothing for God to forgive and if God forgives all your sins there is nothing Christ needs to pay.

The unanswered question only confirms the lack of validity to your argument.

It is true: “Today Christians are not forgiven without invoking the sacrifice of Jesus”, but prior to the cross people were forgiven.

You seem to place great importance to the fact that people were forgiven before Jesus died as if that proves something in your logic. You do realize that God knows all and that at the first sin God prophesied one that would conquer over Satan.

If you read Hebrews 10:12,14 you would understand that Jesus' death atoned all sin throughout all time.

Hebrews 10:12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.​

God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished... (Rom. 3:25, 1984 NIV)

As the thread question asks, you seem to agree that God judges in both this age and on the last day. So why do you continually inject earthly judgement into the text of Romans 3:25 when the context of Romans 2-5 is addressing God's wrath, judgement and man's righteousness leading to eternal life as Romans 5:21 says.

Further, it would help to understand the meaning of forbearance:
the action of refraining from exercising a legal right, especially enforcing the payment of a debt.

Atonement process has to do with our discipline, with forgiveness coming afterwards like with Lev. 5.

As I stated in the OP, scripture does not use the words atonement and forgiveness in a consistent manner such that you can ascribe meaning as you just stated. Of course I would love for you to show me scripture that defines atonement as a disciplinary process.

There was lots of “punishments” for sins in the OT, but there was forgiveness for a sincere repentant person accepting of God’s charity.

Today we have the privilege of being severely disciplined for our sins and God forgives them, while prior to the cross God forgave repentant sinners, but did not discipline them.

A parent spanks his child and the child thinks he is being punished, while the parent knows he is disciplining the child so that he may learn from a mistake. How childlike to think that people in the OT were only punished and not disciplined. Do a search and you will find more occurrences of discipline in the OT than in the NT.

Proverbs 3:11 My son, do not despise the Lord’s discipline, and do not resent his rebuke, 12 because the Lord disciplines those he loves, as a father the son he delights in.

 

[devin553344]

There has been a bit of discussion on Jesus death and forgiveness. I wish to explore the multiple aspects of atonement vs. forgiveness. People seem hung up on what Jesus accomplished on the cross and argue the purpose/completeness of his sacrifice.

I agree with Hebrews that Jesus' death atoned for all the sins of all that will ever be in heaven, those that lived before and after his life.

Hebrews 10:12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.​

Further, I believe that Jesus with his action on the cross gives those with faith a credit of righteousness such that they will not be condemed on judgement day, but will receive eternal life.

Romans 4:23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone,24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

Romans 5:21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
​

So if all our sins have all been atoned for, why do we still need to be forgiven for them? I think one hint to the answer lies in how many times Jesus died vs. how many times we ask for forgiveness. Jesus died once. We pray repeatedly for forgiveness. Now consider there is only one "judgement day" but there are many days where people can be judged. I say the greatest part of Jesus death is the atonement of sins on judgement day such that the sins of the saved will not be remembered or counted against them.

Now a topic not discussed much in the Christian Church. God does judge us in this life for our sins.

Hebrews 12:4[ God Disciplines His Children ] In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,
“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, 6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”

1 Corinthians 11:29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment. 32 Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world.

James 5:14 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.
​

So if we continue to sin in this age multiple times, we continue to pray multiple times for forgiveness such that if God does judge us with discipline, we will be "healed". Now the Catholics that hold to the importance of a last rite before someone dies will not buy into this explanation, but the millions of Catholics in heaven that died without their last sin forgiven by a priest refute their doctrine.


In summary, I find it unfortunate that scripture does not have a unique word for atonement of sins on judgement day vs. forgiveness of sins and the consequences of them in this age. I think many are confused when studying forgiveness if they do not consider the two places of God's wrath, first in this age and lastly on judgement day. I try to use atonement for the eternal consequences of sin and forgiveness for the earthly consequences of sin, but scripture interchanges the use of the words.

My answer to the OP question is that Jesus atoned for the eternal consequences of sin, we pray to God to forgive the earthly consequences of sin. The best support for my position is in Jesus words where he petitioned God the Father himself to forgive the soldiers that put him to death. Obviously, if they did not know what they were doing and never came to faith, their sins will be counted against them on judgement day, so Jesus had to be considering earthly consequences of them putting God's Son to death.

Feel free to disagree with my argument, but please then propose your answer to:

If Jesus died for all sins, why do we repeatedly pray to God for forgiveness?

I would add to that the Destroyer and wrath of God. We find out in Revelation about Abaddon and Apollyon, the destroyer and the vials of wrath.

And in manner after the destroyer of Egypt, Sodom and Gomorrah, in Moses times Lamb's blood stopped the destroyer and the judgement of God.

So then although God atoned for all sin, he decides who will receive mercy instead of judgment, just like Lamb's blood. And then perhaps he has forgiveness withheld for some, and waiting for their seeking of God's mercy, and that requires repentance perhaps and perhaps not.

I believe in the end, God will decide who and why he forgives, for such things are beyond man's grasp and are the things of God.

And any man, forgiving sins, forgives them for man and not God. That it is wise for man to seek forgiveness from man, that he not be an outcast. But wiser is he that seeks forgiveness from God, that he not be an outcast from heaven. So Catholic priests and the last rights are a bit strange, since mans dominion over man ends at death of the body.

But it would appear we need forgiveness from the God and his Vials of wrath spoken of in Revelation of Saint John the Divine. And also we need forgiveness from God to enter into eternal salvation in heaven, and also need forgiveness from man to survive well upon the earth. But I would still beware of man, since we are not perfect. And sometimes it is not wise to seek forgiveness from man, and other times it is wisdom.

 

[bling]

The unanswered question only confirms the lack of validity to your argument.

I did answer the question: Forgiveness and discipline are both needed and God forgives and the cross provides a way for us to be disciplined.

Today we have the privilege of being severely disciplined for our sins and God forgives them, while prior to the cross God forgave repentant sinners, but did not discipline them.

You seem to place great importance to the fact that people were forgiven before Jesus died as if that proves something in your logic. You do realize that God knows all and that at the first sin God prophesied one that would conquer over Satan.

If you read Hebrews 10:12,14 you would understand that Jesus' death atoned all sin throughout all time.

Hebrews 10:12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.​

14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

From this scripture you see it is talking about what Christ sacrifice is doing for our future (being made) and not the past sins.

Christ death is not required for God to forgive as has been shown in the OT.

​

As the thread question asks, you seem to agree that God judges in both this age and on the last day. So why do you continually inject earthly judgement into the text of Romans 3:25 when the context of Romans 2-5 is addressing God's wrath, judgement and man's righteousness leading to eternal life as Romans 5:21 says.

Ro. 5:21 says: “20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord”

Eternal life comes through Christ and it is a part of the Grace, man’s righteousness allows for the grace and Christ’s work for man.

Sin increase is being contrasted to grace (Love/mercy/forgiveness/charity/help) increasing.

Further, it would help to understand the meaning of forbearance:
the action of refraining from exercising a legal right, especially enforcing the payment of a debt.

The “payment” for rebellious disobedience is hell which goes to all those who refuse to accept God’s just/fair disciplining. The payment is forgiven by God, yet man must accept that forgiveness as it was given (as pure charity) to complete the transaction of forgiveness.

Plenty of people have paid the full price for their sins and prior to the cross those forgiven did not have fair/just disciplining (punishment), since God in His forbearance could not discipline them and have them live.

As I stated in the OP, scripture does not use the words atonement and forgiveness in a consistent manner such that you can ascribe meaning as you just stated. Of course I would love for you to show me scripture that defines atonement as a disciplinary process.

This is something we experience more than intellectually explain. Did you feel a death blow to your heart when you came to realize your sins caused Christ to suffer before and on the cross (Like those in Acts 2:37)?

Does the Lord’s Supper remind you of what you put the Lord through?

I will agree those Jews in the first century could better understand atonement than we can because at least the males went through the atonement process for really minor sins (unintentional sins) and knew what that took for just an accident and could extrapolate up to what would be required of them for a major sin directly against God.

A parent spanks his child and the child thinks he is being punished, while the parent knows he is disciplining the child so that he may learn from a mistake. How childlike to think that people in the OT were only punished and not disciplined. Do a search and you will find more occurrences of discipline in the OT than in the NT.

Proverbs 3:11 My son, do not despise the Lord’s discipline, and do not resent his rebuke, 12 because the Lord disciplines those he loves, as a father the son he delights in.

I am not saying God did not love His people and discipline them some, but the only fair/just “discipline” provided for rebellious disobedience against God directly was banishment or death. God not forcing that disciplining on the Jews did allow for other less severe disciplining.

 

[Adstar]

I do not pray for forgivness.. I pray to aknowledge my sin and thank God for the Atonement He provided for my forgivness..

I could not respond to your poll because i do not understand the question..

 

[Goatee]

Of course we need to ask for forgivness if we sin. We cannot just sin without doing so. Did not Jesus give us the pray to His Father? Does it not ask God to forgive us our sins?

Did not Jesus tell his Apostles to go out and forgive those that have sinned?

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

I did answer the question: Forgiveness and discipline are both needed and God forgives and the cross provides a way for us to be disciplined.

You think people in the OT were forgiven by God with no need for Jesus' death for their salvation. Your unanswered question is why did Jesus go through the suffering if it was not necessary for salvation? Jesus did ask God for any way to take this cup away.

14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

From this scripture you see it is talking about what Christ sacrifice is doing for our future (being made) and not the past sins.

There was a reason why I highlighted in red in verse 12 FOR ALL TIME. Go ahead and ignore scripture. Understand that the method of salvation is the same for all people.

Romans 4:23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

Hebrews 11:39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

I am not saying God did not love His people and discipline them some, but the only fair/just “discipline” provided for rebellious disobedience against God directly was banishment or death. God not forcing that disciplining on the Jews did allow for other less severe disciplining.

Discipline in the OT or NT has the purpose of bringing errant believers back to godly ways. Your banishment or death in the OT was not discipline, but punishment, but that does not fit your doctrine since you say those in the OT were not punished or disciplined despite what scripture says.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

I could not respond to your poll because i do not understand the question..

Do you believe God judges sin in this age? That would be the time of fleshy people from Adam, people currently living.

Do you believe God will judge people on judgement day? That would be the last day when all are raised to stand before the Lord.