Jesus and the 'sinful' Nature?

[Andrewn]

He had our humanity without sinful flesh and original sin. These came at the Cross.

God did not create in people a nature that is sinful, fallen, or unredeemed. These concepts are not biblical. He created a nature that is 'human' and Jesus took that same nature.

The 'human nature,' which the Lord assumed, is composed of a 'human spirit' and a 'human flesh.'

"The flesh (Gr sarx) is not always evil in Scripture. Indeed, it is used positively in relation to sexual intercourse in marriage (Eph 5:31) – as well as for the sinless human body of Jesus (Jn 1:14; 1 Jn 4:2,3). Indeed, flesh (what is physical) is necessary for the body to live out the faith the Lord works in (Gal 2:20)."

Contrary to gnostic views (and Watchman Nee), the flesh in the NT is a morally-neutral life force (without which we cannot survive) and leads to desires (some are good and some are evil). This is explained in posts #34 and #109.

Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father’s only son, full of grace and truth.

The evil desires are referred to in the Bibles with the words 'lust' and 'coveting.' Jesus had our 'human flesh' leading to good desires, as in Luk 22:15 but no evil desires (lust / coveting).

 

[Mr. M]

"The flesh (Gr sarx) is not always evil in Scripture. Indeed, it is used positively in relation to sexual intercourse in marriage (Eph 5:31) – as well as for the sinless human body of Jesus (Jn 1:14; 1 Jn 4:2,3). Indeed, flesh (what is physical) is necessary for the body to live out the faith the Lord works in (Gal 2:20)."

Contrary to gnostic views (and Watchman Nee), the flesh in the NT is a morally-neutral life force (without which we cannot survive) and leads to desires (some are good and some are evil). This is explained in posts #34 and #109.

I haven't looked at these posts in another thread, but I agree that translators impose an evil
interpretation to desires, using terms such as lust, very often. The reality is that every believer,
regardless of how born again and filled with the Spirit they may like to think of themselves, face the
truth that there is in fact a natural inclination to selfishness, be it for survival or narcissism, that
must be overcome by the power of the Holy Spirit in us.
Philippians 2:
3 Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself.
4 Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others.

1 John 4:4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome, because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Yes this sort of thing has been a known issue among Eastern Orthodox commentators on the Bible, there has been lots of criticism regarding how western Christians interpret Sarx, as "sin nature", the NIV is especially criticized because it sounds a bit Gnostic. I do confess, that I still often use that version of the Bible, especially the audio function of Bible Gateway since that is so handy. But every once in a while, I do have to cringe at some of those Gnostic sounding renderings of saint Paul that pop up in a blue moon. But I think this only happens once maybe twice in the NT, so it is acceptable fault from my stand point. I have use worse Bibles, like George Lamsa's Peshitta (East Syriac NT)!

 

[Carl Emerson]

God did not create in people a nature that is sinful, fallen, or unredeemed. These concepts are not biblical. He created a nature that is 'human' and Jesus took that same nature.

So you are suggesting that individuals at birth are not effected by the fall and are perfect???

How do you interpret The folllowing...

Rom 5:19
19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.…

And if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh, you will live... Did Jesus have 'deeds of the flesh'???

 

[Andrewn]

The reality is that every believer, regardless of how born again and filled with the Spirit they may like to think of themselves, face the truth that there is in fact a natural inclination to selfishness, be it for survival or narcissism, that must be overcome by the power of the Holy Spirit in us.

This is very true. The question is whether Jesus during his earthly life had this same natural inclination?

 

[Mr. M]

This is very true. The question is whether Jesus during his earthly life had this same natural inclination?

Jesus testified on many occasions the completely selfless nature of His life, which I
wholeheartedly accept as Truth. This does not seem to be a struggle against sin for Him,
as the scripture declares "I delight to do your will". No time for self-indulgence in Him.
John 8:
28 Then Jesus said to them, When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He,
and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things.
29 And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those
things that please Him.

Continuing in Philippians 2, we are exhorted to strive for the same level of selflessness,
to which I can only confess my shortcomings.
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond servant, and coming in the
likeness of men.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to death,
even the death of the cross.

 

[Mr. M]

How do you interpret The folllowing...

Rom 5:19
19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.…

How do you apply it to a new born child? If that is your reason for the question.

And if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh, you will live... Did Jesus have 'deeds of the flesh'???

If the deeds of the flesh are put to death by the Spirit, were not His so at conception, if by
the same Spirit?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Is the nous contained in the body or spirit?

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I think there are some topic that are relevant to the OP and side discussion. The topic of "The evil inclination" in Judaism has a lot to do with things.

Inclination, Good and Evil


Quote by Kallistos Ware: “For the Orthodox tradition, then, Adam's origin...”.


Ancestral Versus Original Sin | St. Mary Orthodox Church of Central Square in Cambridge, Massachusetts

 

[Andrewn]

there has been lots of criticism regarding how western Christians interpret Sarx, as "sin nature", the NIV is especially criticized because it sounds a bit Gnostic.

Yes, NIV renders "flesh" as "sinful nature" twice in Rom 7 and in a footnote in Eph 2. The NLT takes this trend even further and adds "sinful nature" in few more verses.

I have use worse Bibles, like George Lamsa's Peshitta (East Syriac NT)!

Is this a problem with the Peshitta or with Lamsa's translation? I check Lamsa's when there are differences between Greek manuscript that could make a difference in meaning (very rarely).

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Yes, NIV renders "flesh" as "sinful nature" twice in Rom 7 and in a footnote in Eph 2. The NLT takes this trend even further and adds "sinful nature" in few more verses.


Is this a problem with the Peshitta or with Lamsa's translation? I check Lamsa's when there are differences between Greek manuscript that could make a difference in meaning (very rarely).

No that work has completely different problems! In fact some of its problems are actually sold as features!

 

[Mr. M]

Is the nous contained in the body or spirit?

Only if you think the mind is in the brain.
Ephesians 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament.

nous the meaning of the term:

1. The original meaning of nous is (inner) sense directed on an object, and from this come such meanings as ``sensation``power of perception, and mode of thought. The main nuances are ``mind, insight, understanding, judgement and meaning``

2. The word is rare in the LXX, since Kardia is there the main organ of understanding. The usual meaning in Apocrypha is mind or disposition.

3. The term is imprecise in postbiblical Jewish works, having such senses as moral nature, mode of thought, and power of spiritual perception.

Only if you think the mind is in the brain.
Ephesians 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind.

If that is the spirit of the mind
is that the same spirit as

the reprobate Romans 1:28

where vanity dwells Ephesians 4:17

or the carnal mind Colossians 2:18

corruped 2 Timothy 3:8

and defiled Titus 1:15 ?


It seems to me that is the heart, out of which many things flow.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Jesus was born perfect and didn't need to be born again.

We are not born perfect and all struggle with sin before being born again.

We therefore have the war within, Paul spoke of, that Jesus did not experience - His temptations were all from an external source.

 

[Mr. M]

If that is the spirit of the mind
is that the same spirit as

the reprobate Romans 1:28

where vanity dwells Ephesians 4:17

or the carnal mind Colossians 2:18

corruped 2 Timothy 3:8

and defiled Titus 1:15 ?

Are not these examples of those who are not renewed?
The mind is renewed by the Holy Spirit testifying to our spirit, which takes
place in our heart (kardia), and is reflected in a sound mind. Not a reprobate one.
Romans 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing
of your nous, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Are not these examples of those who are not renewed?
The mind is renewed by the Holy Spirit testifying to our spirit, which takes
place in our heart (kardia), and is reflected in a sound mind. Not a reprobate one.
Romans 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing
of your nous, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

I copied this from another thread but thought it applied well.

if we die to lust, reverence for personality comes alive; if we die to anger, love comes alive.—Fulton Sheen

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Jesus was born perfect and didn't need to be born again.

We are not born perfect and all struggle with sin before being born again.

We therefore have the war within, Paul spoke of, that Jesus did not experience - His temptations were all from an external source.

If that were the case that all temtations were from outside of Him then He could not have suffered as we do in our temptations, for we have to meet them between the flesh and the spirit.

 

[Mr. M]

If that were the case that all temtations were from outside of Him then He could not have suffered as we do in our temptations, for we have to meet them between the flesh and the spirit.

Yes, I see your point. He won a battle over temptation in the wilderness that we will never face.
To move up, we overcome temptations according to 1 Corinthians 10:13
I knew some who used to say, "new level, new devil"

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Yes, I see your point. He won a battle over temptation in the wilderness that we will never face.
To move up, we overcome temptations according to 1 Corinthians 10:13
I knew some who used to say, "new level, new devil"

He tore the curtain with His flesh, so as not to come from that pov imo.

 

[Mr. M]

He tore the curtain with His flesh, so as not to come from that pov imo.

Yeah, I prefer:
James 4:7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
Very one size fits all.