JESUS and the APOSTLES OBEYED GOD'S LAW and the SABBATH!

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

[Jas 2:8-13] 8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

Letterists must therefore be on the level of Deity to keep it all perfectly, and anything less than that, and they are guilty of all the law.

Jr[/QUOTE]

The "royal law" is from the Torah. Sin is the transgression of the law. The wages of sin is death. This is the curse of the law. He became a curse for us and nailed it to the cross. Yeshua died to remove the curse when we sin. That is what grace is for. It is very simple...

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

[Jas 2:10] For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.

What I mean by that is, given that they can't keep those things perfectly, as did Jesus, then they aren't keeping any of them at all. In God's economy, there's no such thing as "partial obedience." Jesus fulfilled them ALL perfectly for us, and THEN wrote His teachings in our hearts as they apply to us who are in Him; given that we can't duplicate in this life the perfection of His fulfillment of those letter laws (teachings) and commands.

Yeshua did not keep EVERY law, nobody can.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Yeshua did not keep EVERY law, nobody can.

Yet people cannot understand this because they do not know the old covenant laws. WINNER for your post Yesh! (sorry cannot rate at the moment).

 

[SwordmanJr]

Yeshua did not keep EVERY law, nobody can.

Well, if by that you're referring to His not having "lived" the laws concerning women's menstruation, then yes. Of course. However, the moral absolutes of the Law He did keep perfectly.

Additionally, given that Jesus "fulfilled" the Law and the prophets, and to the satisfaction of the Father, anything else we may claim He didn't live and fulfill is rendered meaningless.

No other fallen man who has ever, is, or ever will walk this earth has nor can live the law, ordinances and commandments perfectly. Trying to live them is an exercise in futility because we're ALL bound to break them at some point, and therefore become guilty of them ALL.

Now, I don't know specifically what you believe, but I would hope that you can respect that I prefer to believe what's written rather than what other men and religions teach, especially those that say and teach what is contrary to what's written. Traditions also have no power over the very word of God.

What the Lord inspired to be written is that He has written His law (teachings) in our hearts, which are far more powerful and authoritative than all those letters that kill, written as a covenant to Israel (of which I am not a member), letters that Paul said are inferior (in spite of all those who question Paul's genuine teaching authority), and live by the Spirit (which God has commanded).

Jr

 

[SwordmanJr]

The "royal law" is from the Torah. Sin is the transgression of the law. The wages of sin is death. This is the curse of the law. He became a curse for us and nailed it to the cross. Yeshua died to remove the curse when we sin. That is what grace is for. It is very simple...

You know, what's also interesting is that letterists have told me that they TRY to live the ten commandments, and some even try to keep Torah, as a works-based system of reward from God. In other words, some believe that they will receive some sort of rewards, possibly crowns of (attempted) obedience to the law on the day rewards are handed out.

What I can't quite grasp is the idea that, given none of us can live the letter of the Law perfectly, as did Jesus, we could never achieve salvation by trying to keep the law, but that we can earn rewards for trying to keep that same law....as if the Lord has somewhere stated that He has effectively lowered His standard for obedience so that mankind can then earn some sort of reward to the the level of our imperfection we accomplish in attempts at law-keeping.

Have you ever heard of such a thing? I can't find it anywhere....although there are some master weavers out there who can weave together just about any kind of doctrinal blanket imaginable, be it ever so tattered and ragged that not even a hobo would want to try and keep warm with it.

Jr

 

[SwordmanJr]

Perhaps I can word this better:

#1) There are those who think they can be saved by law-keeping, albeit they're few and far between in my experience.

#2) There are those who think they can successfully gain reward from God for making an attempt at "keeping" the ten commandments and/or the law of Moses to the best of their abilities.

#3) There are those who think that what the indwelling Lord today writes in our hearts is the letter of the ten commandments and/or the law of Moses in our hearts for us to follow; that there is no difference.

Those who subscribe to #2 seem to enjoy a much higher membership, and also subscribe to point #3.

I'm sure all professing followers of Christ Jesus can agree that point #1 is impossible to achieve because that would render Jesus' dying on the cross meaningless.

Meanwhile, those who subscribe to #2 seem to think that the established standard for the "keeping" of the law is allegedly lower than perfection in relation to point #1 since #2 is "only" about reward rather than salvation....after all, Jesus died because #1 was/is not at all possible for us. So, since He did not die for #2, it's therefore allegedly possible for human effort to achieve.

Additionally, those who subscribe to #2 also agree with #3, even though they have not yet shown where that's directly and precisely stated in Paul's writings, or James, or Peter, or anyone else. I'm sure someone will throw something out there and then try to support their reference they pull out of their context, all of which have copious amounts of white space around the black lettering for them to add what isn't there.

Jr

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Perhaps I can word this better:

It's probably not going to do you any better than the last times going on previous discussions but it does not hurt to try I guess.

#1) There are those who think they can be saved by law-keeping, albeit they're few and far between in my experience.

Really? Who would that be? According to the scriptures, We are saved by GRACE through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God *Ephesians 2:8. Obedience to God's Law is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50. So I would call your comments above as false accusations that no one believes here.

#2) There are those who think they can successfully gain reward from God for making an attempt at "keeping" the ten commandments and/or the law of Moses to the best of their abilities.

See above, this is repetition... false accusation that no one believes here.

#3) There are those who think that what the indwelling Lord today writes in our hearts is the letter of the ten commandments and/or the law of Moses in our hearts for us to follow; that there is no difference.

Really? Who would that be? Most people I know here believe we are saved by Grace through faith and not of ourselves and that is it s gift of God lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9 and that we need to be born again to love and walk in the Spirit in order to follow God *John 3:3-7; Galatians 5:16. Those who are born again according to the scriptures do not practice sin (breaking God's commandments or not believing his Words) *1 John 3:6-9. Sin is defined in the scriptures as breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments *1 John 3:4; James 2:10-11 or not believing and following God's Word once we have been given a knowledge of the truth of Gods' Word *Romans 14:23; James 4:7; Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31; Hebrews 10:26-27.

According to Jesus love is expressed through obedience to Gods' law not by breaking it in Matthew 22:36-40. Paul confirms what Jesus says about love being expressed through obedience to God's law as we believe and follow Gods Word in Romans 13:8-10; Romans 3:31. James even agrees with Jesus and Paul that obedience is expressed through faith and obedience to God's law in James 2:8-12 and James 2:18-20; 26. Even John here disagrees with you in 1 John 5:3-4 when he says that love is expressed in keeping God's commandments and we do this by faith. John goes on further to say that those who claim to know God and do not keep his commandments are lying and the truth is not in them in 1 John 2:3-4.

This is why Jesus says elsewhere, If you love me keep my commandments in John 14:15 and If we keep His commandments we will abide in His love in John 15:10. We show our love to God according to Jesus by keeping his Words *John 14:23. So in summary I do not know of anyone that believes what you are claiming that they do so are false accusations. Now dear friend, the above are Gods' Words not mine. What is it here you do not believe and if you agree with the scriptures shared with you here what is your argument? You have none. All you have provided here are your words that do not agree with Gods' Word.

Something to pray about.

 

[SwordmanJr]

Not sure where you met these people you claim told you that we are saved by keeping the law but I do not know anyone here in the Sabbath and Law forum that believe they are saved by keeping God's law.

They are out there. They aren't Messianic Jews, but call themselves Jews of another flavor....if not bloodline.

Do you think that perhaps you have a misunderstanding of what they were trying to say to you?

That's possible. Computer screens aren't all that great at providing a medium of full understanding.

How can we be saved by keeping the law when we have all broken the law *Romans 3:9-21?

Therein in the question. They will likely try to be front and center when the new temple is build and sacrifices start up once again.

For example if your agreeing with me here how can you make blanket statements to everyone here in the Sabbath and Law forum claiming we all believe we get our salvation by keeping the law when no one believes this?

I don't believe I ever said everyone here believes such.

How does this Lexicon quote disagree with me saying sin is the transgression of the law? - It doesn't. I only posted what the scripture says in 1 John 3:4 [4], Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW (kjv). So no your Lexicon does not disagree with me it agrees with what I posted to you.

It was my thinking that I had made it clear what I meant. I said that you measure everything by the letter of the law, which is not a measure any longer. I quoted numerous verses that placed the law beneath the Law Giver and what that same Law giver writes in our hearts. You claimed that one ha no law in their hearts when breaking the letter of the law because you have drawn a parallel from the letter of the law to what the Law Giver writes in the heart.

I have consistently laid down how scripture shows us that what He writes in the heart is superior to the letter in that it is internalized by the Lord Himself, but you think that the measure of what's written within is gauged by the letter, which kills. No. I reject that notion on the basis of what I quoted in the previous post, AND many more references. That conclusion of mine is like an up-side down pyramid, with all 31,000+ verses of the Bible resting upon that one point, pressing down upon it with the weight of the evidence in all those verses.

So, given that none of us can live the letter perfectly, because even trying to do so makes one guilty of ALL the law, I am free from that curse of the law by Christ Jesus who fulfilled it IN us. The power of obedience is not in the letter, it's in the power of Christ within us.

Many draw lines of separation between themselves and others on the basis of sabbath keeping. That's sad. I love others too much to draw lines in the sand over such a doctrine. Being in Christ is real no matter what anyone else may think on the basis of their pet doctrines, with the strength of their argument resting on what kills its adherents.

Given the situation in our country right now, we are sitting on a powder keg that could blow at any moment. The stability of our nation and of the world rests on a razor edge at the moment, so we have more than enough to consider for the day then to bicker over any idea that sabbath keeping should be upheld as a line of division amongst us.

Jr

 

[HARK!]

They are out there. They aren't Messianic Jews, but call themselves Jews of another flavor....if not bloodline.

There are no non-Messianic Jews in this forum; so why bring it up?

 

[SwordmanJr]

I have a question:

LGW claimed that anyone who breaks the letter of the law has no law written in their hearts. (See post 1291)

Given that none of us can keep the letter of the law perfectly, and that perfection is the measured standard for the keeping of the letter of the law to keep from being guilty of it all, and we ALL would therefore fall into that crowd of being guilty of it all, how, then, can any of us have God's law written in our hearts by that standard? None of us could then possibly have the law written in our hearts given that all of us are guilty of at least one point, and therefore all.

I'm so thankful to the Lord He has written His law in my heart, in spite of some measuring the presence of the law in our hearts against the perfect keeping of the letter. Thank you, Lord in Heaven, for your Truth.

Jr

 

[SwordmanJr]

Actually dear friend, I said no such thing in post 1291 linked. The post is in regards to practicing known unrepentant sin and God's new covenant promise of salvation from sin. Perhaps you should go back and re-read what was posted. For those who have been born again into God's new covenant promise we read from John that it is God's will that we sin not but if we do sin we can return to God through Jesus. 1 John 2:1 [1], My little children, these things write I to you, that you sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous

So, when you said:

"I will say it again if someone is breaking the law this is only evidence that they do not have God's law written in their hearts and need to be born again..."

Well, some things, then, that you may want to clarify is what law you're referring to that, if one is breaking them, then they have not WHAT law of God written in their heart, and how one is born again.

In other words:

1) What law is to be obeyed?

2) How do you define the law God writes into the hearts of His people?

3) How is one born again?

Jr

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Actually dear friend, I said no such thing in post 1291 linked. The post is in regards to practicing known unrepentant sin and God's new covenant promise of salvation from sin. Perhaps you should go back and re-read what was posted. For those who have been born again into God's new covenant promise we read from John that it is God's will that we sin not but if we do sin we can return to God through Jesus. 1 John 2:1 [1], My little children, these things write I to you, that you sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous

Your response here...

So, when you said:

"I will say it again if someone is breaking the law this is only evidence that they do not have God's law written in their hearts and need to be born again..."

Well, some things, then, that you may want to clarify is what law you're referring to that, if one is breaking them, then they have not WHAT law of God written in their heart, and how one is born again.

In other words:

1) What law is to be obeyed?

2) How do you define the law God writes into the hearts of His people?

3) How is one born again?

Jr

Read what is written in the post you are quoting from. I said no such thing in outside of the section you are quoting from that you are claiming I said. Your pulling my statement out from it's context (I see my links and my original post got deleted for some reason). The context to you micro quoting me was to those practicing known unrepentant sin. Not to those who are "in Christ" but have fallen into temptation. Please do not pretend I am saying things I did not say or believe after correcting you in the last post and by clarifying what I said with you already in regards to those "in Christ" by quoting 1 John 2:1. God's Word (not mine) says that those who practice known unrepentant sin do not know God in 1 John 3:6-9 and 1 John 2:3-4. Let's have a friendly honest discussion please based on the scriptures alone.

 

[HARK!]

Jesus taught the 10 commandments…..

Yahshua taught all of YHWH's Torah, not just the Decalogue. As a matter of fact, Yahshua taught that the Decalogue is not even among the foremost precepts.

 

[HARK!]

Paul teaches God's people keep the Sabbath Hebrews 4.

Paul teaches Yah's people to keep Pesach 1 Corinthians 5.

 

[HARK!]

Jesus kept God’s Law (10 commandments) and said the Law and the prophets would not pass away (Matt 5:17-18)

Yahshua kept all of Yah's law; and he taught us to do the same. He taught this throughout his entire ministry.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Yahshua taught all of YHWH's Torah, not just the Decalogue. As a matter of fact, Yahshua taught that the Decalogue is not even among the foremost precepts.

No one said Jesus did not teach all of God's law, so what is your argument? Love sums up the Decalogue, it is not separate to the Decalogue as love is expressed through obedience to it *Matthew 22:36-40; Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-12; 1 John 5:3-4.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Paul teaches Yah's people to keep Pesach 1 Corinthians 5.

True under the new covenant we keep the passover in Christ, not in the "shadows" of the old covenant that pointed to him. The scripture in Coninthians tells us how to keep Pesach in the new covenant and says; 1 Corinthians 5:7-8 [7], Purge out therefore the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, as you are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:[8], Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Jesus kept God’s Law (10 commandments) and said the Law and the prophets would not pass away (Matt 5:17-18)

Your response here...

Yahshua kept all of Yah's law; and he taught us to do the same. He taught this throughout his entire ministry.

True, so your agreeing with me.

 

[HARK!]

True under the new covenant we keep the passover in Christ, not in the "shadows" of the old covenant that pointed to him.

The shadows continue to point to Yahshua. Yahshua lives.

What day do you keep the Passover? Do you follow the Hillel calendar; or do you follow the Torah?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The shadows continue to point to Yahshua. Yahshua lives.

What day do you keep the Passover? Do you follow the Hillel calendar; or do you follow the Torah?

No they do not. Christ has come. We are in the new covenant now not the old. You have no earthly sanctuary or Levite Priest for your animal sacrifices.