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JESUS and the APOSTLES OBEYED GOD'S LAW and the SABBATH!

Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by LoveGodsWord, Sep 13, 2017.

  1. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    then it's ok murder, commit adultery, covet etc. ??? No. Do you do these things? Likely not .... what? are you keeping commandments that are contained in the original 10? Are you obeying them?

    Philippians 3:14

    14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

    The Holy Spirit helps me and every believer to overcome sin ... and this is a life-time process, again it's not me doing this (but I do recognize and acknowledge His work in me) ... it is Him doing this and glory to Him for His work in us.

    John 15:5
    5 I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing.

    Without Him I can do nothing.

    Am I to ignore when He gives me victory over sin (transgression of the law)? No I praise Him and thank him for His work in me.

    Philippians 1

    6 And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.
     
  2. thomass

    thomass New Member

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    No it is not ok to murder, commit adultery or covet. Those things would convict me of sin and every other born again believer. Do believers covet? If you understand what that entails, yes they do.

    What is not ok is to recite the letter and demand people obey it or perish. For that is hypocrisy. For neither you, me or anyone else can obey that letter. If we could, Jesus need not have died at calvary.
    Your problem is, you glibly quote the partial letter without understanding truly what you are quoting, it has to be that or hypocrisy I am afraid.
    The bible states the ten commandments are the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation, so it is not wise to infer you fully obey them is it.
    The measure you use to judge others will be used to judge you Matthew7:2
     
  3. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    I guess you've never experienced being delivered (by the power of Jesus) from any of your sin (transgression of the law) then ... sorry to hear that.

    What is the renewing of your mind?

    Romans 7:25

    Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

    I'm not doing it ... He is ... He is changing my thinking. Thank God!

    Paul explains what it means to keep the Spirit of the law, which is love.

    If you love your neighbor, you will fulfill the requirements of God’s law. For the commandments say, “You must not commit adultery. You must not murder. You must not steal. You must not covet.” These—and other such commandments—are summed up in this one commandment: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to others, so love fulfills the requirements of God’s law. Romans 13:8-10

    The 10 commandments are laws of LOVE.
     
  4. Bob S

    Bob S Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What is really strange is that you cannot see that the Sinai covenant that contained the Sabbath requirement has been replaced with the new covenant. It is really strange that you cannot accept the writings of Paul that tell us that Jesus fulfilled the law. Stranger yet is the fact that those who are hell-bent on thinking they have to observe the old covenant for Israel only Sabbath cannot understand the true meaning of 2Cor3:6-11.
    6 He has even made us competent to be workers serving a New Covenant, the essence of which is not a written text but the Spirit. For the written text brings death, but the Spirit gives life.

    7 Now if that which worked death, by means of a written text engraved on stone tablets, came with glory — such glory that the people of Isra’el could not stand to look at Moshe’s face because of its brightness, even though that brightness was already fading away — 8 won’t the working of the Spirit be accompanied by even greater glory? 9 For if there was glory in what worked to declare people guilty, how much more must the glory abound in what works to declare people innocent! 10 In fact, by comparison with this greater glory, what was made glorious before has no glory now. 11 For if there was glory in what faded away, how much more glory must there be in what lasts.

    What kind of excuse will you derive from those verses? I have quite a few from Sabbath observers and I have not had two alike. Why don't you just read the text and admit you have been duped into believing a falsehood.

    The fact is that gentiles were never required to observe the Sabbath so why would a Christian place himself under a law that was never required of them to serve? To top it all of you are trying to drag other Christians into that bondage you try to serve.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
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  5. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    You, others don't want to keep Sabbath .... someday you and others will ... that I know.

    Isaiah 66:23

    22“For just as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, will endure before Me,” declares the LORD, “so your descendants and your name will endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come to worship before Me,” says the LORD.
     
  6. Bob S

    Bob S Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And then we will go out and take a walk amongst the dead bodies with the worms eating away. Some joy that will be. And in Is 65 it tells us in the new earth we will live to be over 100 years old and babies won't die at birth.

    17 “For, look! I create new heavens
    and a new earth;
    past things will not be remembered,
    they will no more come to mind.
    (yet in Is 66 it says we will walk amongst the dead bodies and I guess we won't have any idea why the bodies are there?)
    18 So be glad and rejoice forever
    in what I am creating;
    for look! I am making Yerushalayim a joy,
    and her people a delight.
    19 I will rejoice in Yerushalayim
    and take joy in my people.
    The sound of weeping will no longer be heard in it,
    no longer the sound of crying.

    20 No more will babies die in infancy,
    no more will an old man die short of his days —
    he who dies at a hundred will be thought young,
    and at less than a hundred thought cursed. (
    Wow! babies won't die at infancy. What happened to not being married in Heaven, so children wouldn't happen? And what about living forever. And men getting old in Heaven and then at some point die????)
    21 They will build houses and live in them,
    they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
    22 They will not build and others live there,
    they will not plant and others eat;
    for the days of my people
    will be like the days of a tree,
    (Trees do die)
    and my chosen will themselves enjoy
    the use of what they make.
    23 They will not toil in van
    or raise children to be destroyed,

    for they are the seed blessed by Adonai;
    (All that is nice to know isn't it? If we keep the Sabbath and do all that the Sabbath-keepers tell us to do then we will get a chance to live another 100 years or so, and our babies won't be destroyed so that they, too, will get over 100 years to enjoy eternity Heaven.)
    And you want me to believe Isaiah was referring to the true Heaven when he related about the Sabbath in chapter 66? If I were you I would find another set of verses that back up your claim that we should be trying to keep a day meant only for Israel as long as the old covenant was in effect.
     
  7. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    God’s Law in the NC is written on our hearts....
    because the written law in ink or on stone is obsolete.

    Romans 7
    6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

    Hebrews 8
    13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
     
  8. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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    Sin is the transgression of the Law. That is what Paul meant when he said "letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation". Yeshua died so we would not be under that curse when we do sin. None of that means we should not try and keep the commandments.
     
  9. Bob S

    Bob S Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Transgression of what law? Transgression of cutting your sideburns? Transgression of not tearing down your house when it has mold in it? Transgression for not keeping the laws of the Sinai covenant (613) that pertain to individuals?

    The covenant given to Israel with its 613 laws has been replaced with the new covenant ratified by Jesus own blood. It is His covenant we are responsible to keep and it is transgression of new covenant commandments, not the Sinai commandments that you are trying to sell.

    Jesus died so that we might have eternal life, something the laws sin and death could not touch.

    Jn15:9 “Just as my Father has loved me, I too have loved you; so stay in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will stay in my love — just as I have kept my Father’s commands and stay in his love. 11 I have said this to you so that my joy may be in you, and your joy be complete.

    12 “This is my command: that you keep on loving each other just as I have loved you. 13 No one has greater love than a person who lays down his life for his friends.
     
  10. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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    Ask Paul. Paul kept Torah. Was he a liar or are you wrong? Which is it? BTW, there are not 613. His laws are the same as Torah laws...if you love someone, you do not murder them, if you love someone, you do not steal from them, etc...you mistakenly think grace is a license to sin? No. You keep the law even though you rail and teach against it?
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2019
  11. Bob S

    Bob S Well-Known Member Supporter

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    First of all you have no idea whether Paul "kept" Torah. He said that he was not under the Law.

    I attend services on the Sabbath, but does that necessarily make me a Sabbath keper? Paul sure didn't lie when he wrote Eph 2, Gal 3:19 and the whoe chapter, 2Cor3:7-11

    Pray tell us just how many laws in the Torah. The Jews have counted them and actually, I would trust their count over yours. An even if there are only 500 laws in Torah what makes the difference to the question I asked you. Do you cut your sideburn and would you tear down your home if it contained mold?

    Either you cannot comprehend what I wrote and the scripture from Jesus I copied or you are very stubborn and ignoring the fact that the Law of Love covers murder, theft and anything else one could do to harm our fellow man.
     
  12. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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    Yes I do, Paul says so himself ( Romans 3:31 and Romans 7:12 ). Also, he went to the temple and made an offering and nazarite vow ( Acts 21 ). If he did not keep Torah he would have said no. He didn't. So either Paul lied or I am correct...which is it. Yes Paul was no longer under the curse of the law, Yeshua took that away. Can you comprehend that? The "law of Love" IS Torah. Love God is Torah from Deuteronomy 6:4-7 and love your neighbor is from Leviticus 19:18

    In his list of the 613, Maimonides included commands that the rabbis said were biblical in origin, even though they are not explicit in the Torah. Judah ibn Balaam rejected the notion that there are 613 biblical commands. Nachmanides wrote that the 613 count is a matter of dispute and there is no certainty that it is true.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2019
  13. Bob S

    Bob S Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Galatians 3 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
    3 You stupid Galatians! Who has put you under a spell? Before your very eyes Yeshua the Messiah was clearly portrayed as having been put to death as a criminal! 2 I want to know from you just this one thing: did you receive the Spirit by legalistic observance of Torah commands or by trusting in what you heard and being faithful to it? 3 Are you that stupid? Having begun with the Spirit’s power, do you think you can reach the goal under your own power? 4 Have you suffered so much for nothing? If that’s the way you think, your suffering certainly will have been for nothing! 5 What about God, who supplies you with the Spirit and works miracles among you — does he do it because of your legalistic observance of Torah commands or because you trust in what you heard and are faithful to it?
    10 For everyone who depends on legalistic observance of Torah commands lives under a curse, since it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not keep on doing everything written in the Scroll of the Torah.” 11 Now it is evident that no one comes to be declared righteous by God through legalism, since “The person who is righteous will attain life by trusting and being faithful.”12 Furthermore, legalism is not based on trusting and being faithful, but on [a misuse of] the text that says, “Anyone who does these things will attain life through them.” 13 The Messiah redeemed us from the curse pronounced in the Torah by becoming cursed on our behalf; for the Tanakh says, “Everyone who hangs from a stake comes under a curse.” 14 Yeshua the Messiah did this so that in union with him the Gentiles might receive the blessing announced to Avraham, so that through trusting and being faithful, we might receive what was promised, namely, the Spirit.

    2Cor3:

    6 He has even made us competent to be workers serving a New Covenant, the essence of which is not a written text but the Spirit. For the written text brings death, but the Spirit gives life.

    7 Now if that which worked death, by means of a written text engraved on stone tablets, came with glory — such glory that the people of Isra’el could not stand to look at Moshe’s face because of its brightness, even though that brightness was already fading away — 8 won’t the working of the Spirit be accompanied by even greater glory? 9 For if there was glory in what worked to declare people guilty, how much more must the glory abound in what works to declare people innocent! 10 In fact, by comparison with this greater glory, what was made glorious before has no glory now. 11 For if there was glory in what faded away, how much more glory must there be in what lasts.

    What is all that Paul wrote telling each one of us? Well, for one thing, that those of us that listen to those who would put us back under the Torah are wrong and Paul tells us that the 10 commandments, the heart of Torah, has faded away. The guide for Israel has faded away and all mankind has the Holy Spirit within that guides us. Furthermore, in Eph 15 Paul writes that Jesus ended the law.
    Eph2:13 But now, you who were once far off have been brought near through the shedding of the Messiah’s blood. 14 For he himself is our shalom — he has made us both one and has broken down the m’chitzah which divided us 15 by destroying in his own body the enmity occasioned by the Torah, with its commands set forth in the form of ordinances. He did this in order to create in union with himself from the two groups a single new humanity and thus make shalom,

    As far as the 613 laws go it seems you are guessing as to the count and your authority is no better than mine. You actually do not know that 613 is incorrect.
     
  14. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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    Do you not read what I write and make up assumptions regarding my views? There is a difference between keeping Torah with Yeshua and without Yeshua. THAT is what you do not understand. Nor do you understand Paul. We are no longer under the curse of the law, Yeshua took that away, not the Torah. Can you comprehend that? Do you think the Spirit does not uphold the law? A house divided will not stand. The "law of Love" IS Torah. Love God is Torah from Deuteronomy 6:4-7 and love your neighbor is from Leviticus 19:18 . I am not guessing regarding 613, I have shown you from primary Jewish sources that it is not fact.
     
  15. Bob S

    Bob S Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You would like to persuade others that Paul wrote that the law is still to be followed. The fact is that Jesus came to do away with the law that divided Jew from Gentile. Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

    15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

    16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

    Matt5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    Fulfill: bring to an end.

    Jesus brought to an end the Sinai covenant as stated in Eph2 and fortifies the meaning of the word fulfilled in Matt 5. Furthermore, Paul writes in Gal 3 the following:
    19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made;
    There it is again, till = up to the time of; until. The Sinai covenant ended at Calvary when Jesus ratified with His own blood the new and better covenant.

    Why would you want to live under a covenant that Paul wrote was one of death when the new covenant promises eternal life? The new covenant is not the old one warmed over. It is not a bunch of thou shalt nots and ritual days. We are free in Christ to honor Him anytime we want. The old covenant Sabbath was made for the Israelites to remember creation and their flight out of bondage to a home in Canaan. Christians remember Jesus every day and we remember the promise of a new home for eternity every day. Jesus asks us to remember Him with the ordinance of communion. This we do with joy for what He did for us. His commandment for us is to love others as He loves us. It is with great joy that we have found our Savior and friend and it is with that same joy that we keep His commandments to believe in God and love our fellow man. 1Jn 3:19-24 clinches how Jesus wants us to live.

    18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. 19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. 20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

    What a beautiful promise. I know I am of the truth, not by keeping rituals of the old covenant, but by believing and loving. Jesus, in Jn 15, said He kept the Father's commands and asks us to keep His commands. Yes, we do live under a better covenant with better promises as the writer of Hebrews tells us. I, for one, will put my trust in the writings of the New Testament for my salvation and not of the Messianic's belief system that would put me under the ministration of death. 2Cor3:7
     
  16. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    What about the ark of the testimony? When God wrote the TC, He then had Moses place it in the ark. The whole sanctuary was a replica of the heavenly sanctuary. That is acknowledged by everyone, no matter what denomination they are.

    The ark is the very throne of God, it is where God sits, whether it was in the heavenly one or the earthly one---it is His very throne.
    The ark is called the ark of the testimony---it contained God's stone tablets with His law written by His own hand. The TC--the testimony---they are the same thing according to scripture. Anyone can do a word study on testimony and ark and see they are the same thing. The TC were placed inside the ark--the law of Moses (those dictated by God, written by Moses on parchment) were placed outside the ark.
    And in the heavenly sanctuary----they are still there.

    Rev_11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

    Where we differ is in the end of that law. Everyone here says it was destroyed and is now written in the heart---

    Whether in the heart or on stone---it is written. And are still in the heavenly ark and will still be kept throughout eternity. Isaiah 66:23 attests to that. Why the fact that the wicked are destroyed, and it says that the saved will walk on their ashes--is translsated to mean anything other than the wicked will be destroyed---I don't understand. We are not going to spend eternity delighting in the fact the wicked are under our feet any more than we are going to spend eternity watching the lost writhe in agony and torment in hell fire! It quite simply means the wicked will be destroyed---not given eternal life in hell. Eternal life is for the saved only. Fact remains---the Sabbath will be kept in the new earth. And God's original law, written by His own hand---rests in the heavenly sanctuary.
    The law that ended was any law pointing to Jesus as the slain Sacrficial Lamb. The testimony represents the love of God, which has always been and always will be, from everlasting to everlasing.
     
  17. Walter and Deborah

    Walter and Deborah Junior Member

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    Amen
     
  18. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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    Then you believe Paul to be a liar. The CURSE was removed. A house divided can not stand. Loving God and our neighbor is Torah.
     
  19. Bob S

    Bob S Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What gives you that idea? I have posted with Messianics that have admitted they had no faith in Paul's writings.
     
  20. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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    Many misinterpret his writings while others outright reject them.
     
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