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JESUS and the APOSTLES OBEYED GOD'S LAW and the SABBATH!

Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by LoveGodsWord, Sep 13, 2017.

  1. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Ok friend I did not think you would. I do not judge you. It is between you and God.
     
  2. W2L

    W2L Well-Known Member

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    Yes.


    Romans 14:5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written:

    As I live, says the Lord,
    Every knee shall bow to Me,
    And every tongue shall confess to God.”

    12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother’s way.
     
  3. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hi W2L,

    So now you want to move on to something new without addressing your claims about Shadows and Hebrews 4? Ok, let's talk about Romans 14

    What does God's Word say..........

    Romans 14
    v1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
    The first thing we see here is that this chapter is about relating to a weak brother.

    v2 For one believe that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
    v3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth

    Do not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
    So, if you encounter one who is weak in the faith and believes he must eat vegetables only, don’t let this puff you up and do not judge him…

    2 Corinthians 10:12
    For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

    v4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

    The context so far is about judging others that are eating vegetables only....
    Now to the meat and potatoes…..

    v5 One man esteems one day above another: another esteems every day alike.
    Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
    v6 He that regards the day, regards it unto the Lord; and he that regards not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eats not, and gives God thanks.


    Why is eating and fasting (not eating) connected to days here? Let’s see…

    Luke 18:11-12
    The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee,
    that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

    From Bullingers Companion Bible

    Luke 18:12 Twice in the week. The law prescribed only one in the year (Lev_16:29. Num_29:7). By the time of Zec_8:19 there were four yearly fasts. In our Lord's day they were bi-weekly (Monday and Thursday), between Passover and Pentecost; and between the Feast of Tabernacles and the Dedication. They fasted two days a week, Monday and Thursday, EVERY MONDAY and EVERY THURSDAY during some of the Jewish annual festivals and Holy days according to the laws of Moses.

    v7 For none of us lives to himself, and no man dies to himself.
    v8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
    v9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
    v10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
    v11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
    v12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
    v13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumbling block or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
    v14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteems any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
    v15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walks thou not charitably.
    Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.


    Now Paul shifts his attention to meat offered to idols. At the time, meat and drink offerings were made to pagan idols. After it was offered it was sold in a meat market called the ‘Shambles’.

    1 Corinthians 10:25
    Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:

    Shamble
    G3111
    µa´e; makellon
    Thayer Definition:
    1) a place where meat and other articles of food are sold, meat market
    Part of Speech: noun neuter; A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: of Latin origin [macellum] Citing in TDNT: 4:370, 549

    There were those who were weak in the faith (verse 1) who were offended by the possibility of their food being offered to idol so they became vegetarians. They somehow thought that eating that food was somehow connecting them with the idolatrous practices around them. This is why the following is written…............

    v16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
    v17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness,
    and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.


    Meat here is…
    G1035
    ß???s??bro¯sis; bro'-sis
    From the base of G977; (abstractly) eating (literally or figuratively);
    by extension (concretely) food (literally or figuratively): - eating, food, meat.

    Notice it is food, not clean or unclean flesh.

    G4213
    p?´s?? posis; pos'-is
    From the alternate of G4095; a drinking (the act), that is, (concretely) a draught: - drink.
    Drinking, can be alcoholic or non-alcoholic beverages.

    Paul was dealing with ascetism and the belief that doing without was somehow a show of character. He dealt with this issue at Colossae also…

    Colossians 2:21 Touch not; taste not; handle not;
    Colossians 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?
    Colossians 2:23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honor to the satisfying of the flesh.

    v18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
    v19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace,
    and things wherewith one may edify another.
    v20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.


    The word for meat here is broma, from Thayer’s…
    G1033
    ß???µa ;bro¯ma
    Thayer Definition:
    1) that which is eaten, food; Part of Speech: noun neuter; A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from the base of G977
    Citing in TDNT: 1:642, 111

    Again, we are dealing with food.

    v21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby
    thy brother stumbles, or is offended, or is made weak.

    So, it is not dealing with clean and unclean, but with flesh (meat) and wine (drink)
    that makes a weak brother stumble. It is dealing with food offered to idols, fasting and the Jewish annual festivals or Holy days.............

    v22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God.
    Happy is he that condemns not himself in that thing which he allows.
    v23 And he that doubts is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith:
    for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. (from proveall modified)


    Key points.....................

    1. Now where in the whole Chapter does Romans 14 even mention the 7th day Sabbath? Romans 14 doe not even mention God's 4th commandment which is the 7th Day Sabbath so has nothing to do with it.

    2. There is no command to abolish the 7th day Sabbath as there is no command to now keep Sunday a Holy day.

    3. Romans 14:5-6 is referring to eating and eating not (fasting) for the annual Jewish festivals (holy days) from the law of Moses that where shadows of things to come

    So Romans Chapter 14 including verses 5-6 does not say that God’s Sabbath commandment has been abolished or does it say that we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day…… In fact it does not even mention the Sabbath at all in the entire Chapter.

    We must obey God rather than man. Sunday worship is a teaching and traditions of man over the word of God. Jesus says if we are following the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

    We must follow God's Word over the teachings of man

     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2017
  4. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    HEBREWS 4 and Shadows of things to come.....

    Just a quick re-post for anyone that wants to talk about Hebrew 4 and God's Sabbath as being a Shadow. God's 4th commandment (Exodus 20:8-11) has never been a shadow of anything because it is part of a finished work of creation given before sin entered into the world....

    Some posts and questions that no one has addressed include; Post # 485; Post # 495; Post # 499; Post # 487 and COLOSSIANS 2:14-17 THE REAL TRUTH (linked) as well as the other posts I have sent with the scriptures. Could you please answer the following questions...............

    1. Was the 7th Day Sabbath in the creation week part of a finished work or unfinished work?
    2. Was the 7th Day Sabbath in the creation week made before sin or after sin entered the world?
    3. Where does it say in God's Word God's 4th commandment the 7th Day Sabbath is abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day?

    Please show the scriptures that say............

    1. Jesus is the 7th day Sabbath.

    2. The Sabbath (seventh day) was ever changed from the seventh to the first day of the week?

    3. Where we are told to keep the first day of the week holy?

    4. Where the first day of the week (Sunday) is ever called a holy day?

    5. That says that Jesus ever kept the first day (Sunday)?

    6. That tells us to keep the first day in honor of the resurrection of Christ?

    7. Where the first day is ever given any sacred name?

    8. That affirms that any of the apostles ever kept the first day as the Sabbath?

    9. From any apostolic writings that authorizes Sunday observance as the Sabbath of God?

    10. Where we are told not to work on the first day of the week?

    11. That says the seventh day is no longer God's Sabbath day?

    12. That says the seventh day Sabbath is ABOLISHED?

    13. Where the apostles ever taught any convert to keep the first day of the week as a Sabbath?

    14. Where the first day was ever appointed to be kept as the Lord's Day?

    15. Where the first day of the week is ever called the Lord's Day?

    16. That says that the first day of the week was ever sanctified and hallowed as a day of rest?

    17. That says that the Father or the Son (Jesus) rested on the first day of the week?

    18. That says that Jesus, Paul or any other of the apostles taught anyone to observe the first day of the week as the Sabbath?

    19. That calls the seventh day the “Jewish Sabbath” or one text that calls Sunday the “Christian Sabbath”?

    20. Telling man to keep the first day of the week holy or to worship or rest on the first day of the week?

    21. Authorizing anyone to set aside God's Sabbath and observe any other day?

    22. Showing any of the apostles keeping the first day of the week as the Sabbath?

    23. Authorizing someone to set aside the fourth Commandment and observe any other day of the week?

    24. Where any apostle taught us to keep the first day of the week as the Sabbath?

    25. Declaring that the seventh day is no longer the Eternal Sabbath day?

    26. Where Sunday is now appointed to be kept as the New Testament Sabbath or holy day?

    If you cannot answer any of the above, who should we obey God or man? Only God's Word is true and we should follow Jesus if we love him....

    May God bless you as you seek him through his Word
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2017
  5. listed

    listed are you?

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    The word "rested" does mean what you posted below. Let's look at another place where the word "shabath" is used.

    I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.

    Now let's put in your selected definition -
    I will also cause all her mirth to to repose, that is, desist from exertion, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.

    The word means to desist of which cease is adequate. The word cease is also found in your definition. Desist means to abstain as in not do. To desist does not allow for a return of activity. Cease means stop, not pause.

    The intended meaning of Genesis 2:2 is stopped and did not return to work as your definition says "desist from exertion." It is not a pause or break in tasks. God did not repose. God does not get tired in the sense a human does from exertion.
    God only commands Israel here. Changing the wording so as to mean all who worship God is an error and changing the meaning of Scripture.
    The word "wherefore" means for that reason. The verse does not say the sabbath and the 7th day are the same. The sabbath is not mention before Exodus 16
    No, the sabbath occurs on the 7th day. If it were the same thing all men would know it as the sabbath and never a numbered day. But we can call a day by anything we wish. Week day names are a perfect example. We seem to be celebrating everything these days. Just yesterday I noticed national hot dog day on a calendar.
    You're twisting what is said in Mark 2:27 to suit your fancy. There is no command found in verses 27 or 28 of Mark 2. THE command of Exodus 20 is only to Israel.

    John 14:15 doesn't say keep the ten commandments. Jesus doesn't take ownership of them as John 15:10 amply proves. John 1:17 also says Jesus did not bring the ten commandments. Like you say I believe God's Word over men.
    So is your altered version of the sabbath.
    Amen to that.
     
  6. listed

    listed are you?

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    I'm sorry if you misunderstand my position and the Scripture.
     
  7. listed

    listed are you?

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    If Jesus is my rest that Jews could not enter while observing the 7th day sabbath rest, in a sense Jesus is the sabbath. Jesus offered those observing the the 7th day sabbath something they didn't have.
    True, but our rest isn't a physical rest as you demand. The sabbath is intended to point to the rest of God, not a break from weekly activity. That is all you have.
    The same all non Israeli are told to keep the 7th day oft he week holy.
    Big deal.
    Where does Jesus say to keep the 7th day?
    You honor creation and balk at Christians honoring (celebrating the victory of the resurrected Jesus Christ our savior. Why? We don't worship the resurrection.
    Who cares?
    Paul's instructions found in 1 Corinthians 16 should be enough evidence.
    Hebrews 10:25.
    Who cares. Do most sabbatarians work on the first day of the week? No, they usually work Monday through Friday or only 5 days. Exodus 20 says work 6 days.
    Hosea 2:11 and Jeremiah 31:31-33.
    Hosea 2:11, Jeremiah 31:31-33, Luke 22:20. There's no command to observe the sabbath in the NT. There's no requirement of converts to observe the law in the NT.
    No. Now where did any of the Apostles teach and require keeping the law or the sabbath?
    Nothing more than a continued list of attacking the liberty of the Christian. Paul says worship on Sunday in 1 Corinthians 16 unless your church only recieves offerings on days they don't meet for worship.
    Revelation 1:10
    There's no requirement to sanctify or hollow any day in the NT.
    Your only point is a legalism of the old covenant which the Christian isn't obligated to. Thus you've no valid point.
    1 Corinthians 16.
    Hosea 2:11 for the Jew part. Revelation 1:10 for the Christian part. Only it isn't referred to as a, or the sabbath of anything.
    There aren't any holy days for the Christian in the NT.
    Just more legalism and bondage that doesn't apply to the Christian.
    Revelation 1:10
    Jeremiah 31:31-33 and Luke 22:20
    Repeat question already answered above with 1 Corinthians 16.
    Hosea 2:11
    None unless you want to consider Hebrews 10:25.
    Answered. Now its your turn to respond to any of the above comments.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2017
  8. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hi Listed the questions I asked were to to be answered through scripture that addresses the questions. You did not provide any scripture that answered the questions.
     
  9. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Nope this is referring to the annual Jewish festivals and Holy convocations of Leviticus 23 and other places please refer to COL 2:14-17 THE REAL TRUTH for more scripture

    Well I could not find your interpretation in God's Word. You may need to look at the Hebrew words for rest and Sabbath. Mark 2:27-28 were supplied as proof that the Sabbath was made for mankind and Jesus is the creator of the Sabbath and he made it for His people to keep Holy.

    Let's have a look at what God's Word says again...........

    Genesis 2:1-3

    1, Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2, And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3, And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it <set apart and made Holy>: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

    God commands His people rest from their work as he did from His on the 7th Day............

    Exodus 20:8-11
    8, Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy. 9, Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:10, But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:11, <why?> For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it <made Holy and set it apart from the other days of the week>

    Exodus 20:10
    But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God

    Also, as a side note out of interest......

    Genesis 2:1-3
    1, Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2, And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3, And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

    The Hebrew Word base root word for rest used in Genesis 2:1-3 and Sabbath used in Exodus 20:8-11 is the same Hebrew word although the word Sabbath carries the extra meaning of one 7 day interval to another (ongoing rest every 7th day)

    Strongs
    rested
    H7673
    שׁבת; shâbath; shaw-bath'
    A primitive root; to repose, that is, desist from exertion; used in many implied relations (causatively, figuratively or specifically): - (cause to, let, make to) cease, celebrate, cause (make) to fail, keep (sabbath), suffer to be lacking, leave, put away (down), (make to) rest, rid, still, take away.

    and.......

    Strongs
    Sabbath
    H7676
    שׁבּת; shabbâth; shab-bawth'
    Intensive from H7673; intermission, that is, (specifically) the Sabbath: every sabbath.

    So in summary.............

    God blessed the 7th day Sabbath in Genesis 2. Not only did he bless this day in Genesis 2 this is also where God set the 7th day apart from all the other days in the week and made it a Holy day for all mankind (Mark 2:27). Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath and commands us to keep it as a Holy day (Mark 2:28; Exodus 20:8-11) and says if you love me keep my commandments (John 14:15). Love is the fulfilling of God's Law in us who through faith walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh. The 7th day and the Sabbath are the same thing (Exodus 20:10)

    Sunday worship is a teaching and tradition of man breaking God's commandments. If we are knowingly following the traditions of man over the Word of God the scriptures tell us we are not following God. (see Matthew 15:3-9)
     
  10. bugkiller

    bugkiller Well-Known Member

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    You do not recognize the passages not quoted or refereenced by the comments? Really? The first one in his response was Mat 11:28-30. I did not have to look it up. Some here think Scripture is not recognized for some reason. If I do not see a reference, I can usually find what is being talked about in a matter of seconds thanks to the net.

    bugkiller
     
  11. bugkiller

    bugkiller Well-Known Member

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    My bet is listed read Lev 23 where the first thing listed is the weekly sabbath just like in Hosea. I will let listed respond to the rest of your post. I will not because the first thing you posted is wrong.

    bugkiller
     
  12. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    Jesus and the Disciples and the Jewish believers in Jerusalem all observed Torah zealously (Acts 21:20) including keeping the Sabbath. But they all had one thing in common: THEY WERE ALL JEWS.

    Let me say up front that I am not against Gentiles keeping the Sabbath. I think it's very beautiful when Gentiles keep the Sabbath, and that they will be blessed for doing so. My argument is more complex than that. Read on.

    Jews have a special relationship with Torah. It is our birthright, whether we are Rabbinical Jews or whether we are believers in the Messiah. All the first believers in the Messiah were Jews, and the Ekklesia essentially began as a Jewish sect in Jerusalem and spread from there.

    With the conversion of the God-Fearer, Cornelius, Gentiles began to believe in Christ. There were differences in the Church how to deal with these Gentiles. Some believers thought they had to become circumcised, which meant they became Jews and took upon themselves the 613 laws of the Mosaic covenant. Other believers thought it was perfectly okay if they remained God-Fearers -- Gentiles who believed in Jewish teachings, but did not become Jews nor did they observe the Mosaic covenant (they simply lived basic moral lives).

    Just to back up a bit, it was basic Jewish teaching that it was NOT NECESSARY for Gentiles to become Jews. A Gentile was welcome to convert and become a Jew, of course. But the objective of Pharisee missionaries was to make God-Fearers, who would also have a share in the world to come. This was standard Judaism, and remember that Christianity of that time was a sect of Judaism. So the group of Christians that felt Gentiles could remain God-Fearers was in the mainstream, whereas the group that believed Gentile believers needed to become Jews was out of the ordinary.

    It was in this context that the Council of Jerusalem happened. It should be no surprise that the mainstream won out. Gentiles in the Church would NOT be required to be circumcised, meaning they did not have to take on the Mosaic covenant (including the Sabbath). IOW it was fine if they remained God-Fearers.

    1. This decision doesn't mean that Jewish believers may not continue to observe Torah. I would like to encourage Jews to do so, not for salvation, not out of obligation, but out of love for God. It is an excellent means of sanctification.

    2. This decision also doesn't mean that there can't be exceptions. There can be unusual Gentiles called to Torah, who voluntarily take on this law or that law or perhaps all the laws. I believe that the Gentiles who do this will be blessed. I know many such wonderful Messianic Gentiles. This is why I say that I am not opposed to Gentiles who keep the Sabbath.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2017
  13. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Not sure what your point is or what your trying to say...
     
  14. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Nope, already addressed and is the reason for the link here COL 2:14-17 THE REAL TRUTH
     
  15. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hello Open Heart,

    I have not talked to you much. So nice to meet you here. I am happy to give you a detailed response to your post if you would like but there are a number of things in my view that make your post fall down a bit scripture wise.... Please forgive me if I respectfully disagree with you and I respect your right to your opinion and belief.

    Firstly did you know what the Torah is?...............

    Torah also called "Pentateuch from the Greek" is the first five books of the Bible (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy). These are also called the book of Moses as they were written by Moses.

    1. Do you believe that the TORAH (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy) or first 5 books of the bible are not for Christians?

    Who is Israel today according to the scripture?................

    Who is Israel according to God's Word?

    Israel" is only a name given by God himself to represent his people. It has its origin from Gen 32:28 where Jacob wrestled with the Angel and prevailed ...for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. Its meaning is his posterity will rule as God. Jacob had 12 sons representing the 12 tribes of Israel. This is God's people and today anyone the is following Jesus is part of God's spiritual Israel according to God's Word. The same New Covenant is written for God's people who are now spiritual Israel following. Scripture support;

    For it is written…

    Let God be true and every man a liar that thou might be justified in thy sayings, and might overcome when thou art judged.

    Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He says not, and to seeds, as of many; but as of one, and to thy seed, which is Christ

    Abraham’s seed is Israel, now who is Israel?

    There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus and if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: but he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

    Gal 3:28-29,
    There is neither Jew nor Greek
    , there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    Col 3:11,
    Where there is neither Greek nor Jew,
    circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

    Rom 10:11-13,
    For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    Rom 2:28-29,
    For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly;
    neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

    Jer 31:33-4,
    But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, says the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

    Heb 8:10-12,
    For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

    Heb 10:14-17,
    For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, this is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; and their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

    Gal 3:29,
    And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise

    The New Covenant is for God's Israel which represent God’s followers the believers. If you are not part of God's Israel you are not part of the New Covenant (Heb 8:10-12).

    God's Israel are those that believe the Word of God and follow it and is why Jesus says If you love me keep my commandments (John 14:15)

    Just let me know if you would like me to go though the rest of your post. I stopped here because most of your post came apart after this as you are referring to the ceremonial laws of Moses such as circumcision which were fulfilled at the cross...

    Thanks for your post however.
     
  16. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    Don't worry about disagreeing with me, my friend. I'm not being personal, and I don't take disagreement personally. :)

    It depends on what you mean.

    The Torah was given to Israel by God. "And the LORD said to Moses, "Speak to the Children of Israel, saying..." "

    However, this doesn't mean that the Nations can't read the Torah and be inspired by it. Christians in particular are to study it, and it is a terrible thing that it is not studied more than it is. We know, for example, that we are to love our neighbor as ourselves, but the Torah gives us many examples of just how to do that. It displays moral thought for us to ponder. Even if we don't keep kosher or celebrate Rosh Hashana, there is still so much to learn. And again, there is nothing wrong with Gentiles voluntarily keeping these commandments -- they will find it quite a blessing.
     
  17. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    Israel is the twelve tribes descended from Israel/Jacob, including those who have been adopted into the Children of Israel such as Rahab or Ruth. It does not include those who unilaterally adopt themselves into it without Israel's consent.
     
  18. listed

    listed are you?

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    I offered more Scripture than you did. You know some of your questions have no Scriptural answer. You posed leading questions to support your theology. Since the law covenant was given for a limited people and time you have no valid argument. Galatians 3:19 has been provided to you without avail. So you can continue to ignore Scritpure.
     
  19. listed

    listed are you?

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    Won your bet.
     
  20. listed

    listed are you?

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    The real truth LGW is the list of Israel's holy days in Leviticus starts with the weekly sabbath. The list in Colossians is reversed.

    23 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

    2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.

    3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.

    16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:


    Shabath is a verb. Shabbath is a noun. The words are related in concept and entirely 2 different things.

    The abuse of Mark 2:27 and 28 stinks to high heaven. There is nothing in Genesis or Exodus indicating all mankind. So the context of Mark 2:27, 28 is spoken only to those to whom the sabbath was given - Jews. Jesus was having a conversation with Jews having no indication about addressing the world. You can say gentiles were present if you like. The conversation was with Jews.

    Since you bring up Sunday is only a tradition of men, let me say the sabbath you keep is merely a tradition of a woman. You aren't in compliance with Exodus 20:8-11. Since you promote obligation to the law, this is repeated willful unrepentant sin.

    Quite frankly I'm tired of your insults.
     
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