Jesus and His Coming

[Iosias]

Have you read Jesus and His Coming by J A T Robinson?

In this controversial study, first published in l957. Dr Robinson looked for the origins of the doctrine of the Second Coming in the belief of the early church. His conclusion, that the early church may well have misinterpreted the original teaching of Jesus on the issue, was based on a careful and thorough examination of the New Testament material.

In his preface to this reissue, he writes: In the quarter of a century since I worked on the material I am not persuaded that the thesis of the hook has lost its importance Or its credibility. How and why the doctrine of the Parousia or Second Coming of Christ emerged in the thinking of the earliest Christian Communities remains of vital significance as we continue to wrestle today with how we can re-express it theologically, apply it politically, communicate it pastorally or incorporate it liturgically.

That part of Christian teaching which asserts that Christ has to come into everything would seem on the face of it to he the easiest to make relevant. Yet how much of its traditional formulation rests On a mistake, or represents a myth we can scarcely make our own?

Until we understand what in that primordial explosion of truth which marked the first decades of the Christian movement caused it to he thrown up. what positive insights it embodied--and. I would say, distorted--we shall not be free to proclaim it with conviction or to apply it with discernment.'

 

[snumerouno]

Jesus said he will return. The angels told the apostles that Jesus would return. The truth of the parousia is proclaimed all throughout the New Testament. The Nicene Creed and Apostles Creed affirm that Christ will return. So all that is left to do is believe this great truth of the second coming.

 

[Iosias]

That sort of misses the point

 

[snumerouno]

That sort of misses the point

No, you are missing out on the truth of the Second Coming that is clearly proclaimed and are wandering off into heretical waters.

 

[Iosias]

Where is Jesus now?

 

[snumerouno]

Where is Jesus now?

He ascended to heaven where he is seated at the right hand of the Father.

 

[ebedmelech]

This is not misinterpreted by the early church. How hard is it when Jesus clearly said it?

John 14:1-3:
“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me.
2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

How do you misinterpret that???

 

[Iosias]

He ascended to heaven where he is seated at the right hand of the Father.

Where is heaven located?

 

[Iosias]

This is not misinterpreted by the early church. How hard is it when Jesus clearly said it?

John 14:1-3:
“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me.
2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

How do you misinterpret that???

The Gospel of John is not historical, hence there is reason to doubt that Jesus said the words you cite.

 

[Biblewriter]

That sort of misses the point

Then what is the point?

 

[Serpentslayer]

This is not misinterpreted by the early church. How hard is it when Jesus clearly said it?

John 14:1-3:
“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me.
2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

How do you misinterpret that???

Dear friend in Christ let me interpret those versus for you.

The houses and many dwelling places or rooms are tangible experiential realities of an angelic heavenly sanctuary that is not dictated by time nor is it constrained by the constaints of an physical earthly body.

These are heavenly bodies and the access to these rooms within the Father's house are infinite and multidimensional compared to any 3D or human perspective we can imagine or fathom with our human minds.

Yes Christ did say those words and they are historical accounts and heaven is more real and tangible than our existence in the human bio mechanical body interface we have in order to experience this time based earthly realm.

Jesus said:

I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

Before equating I WILL COME BACK from an EARTHLY PERSPECTIVE you need to read the context found at the end of the sentence. That context is WHERE I AM, THERE YOU MAY BE ALSO.

Once we understand that where Jesus is as someone pointed out in heaven sitting on the right hand of power as God and judging as King in his heavenly royal court, then we see that the most important question that needs to be asked is:

WHEN HE WILL RECEIVE US TO HIMSELF?


Oh, you see the question of WHEN indicates the HOW.

Many who interpreted these versus without the end of sentence contextual indicators, brought in preconceived beliefs of a Parosa or SECOND COMING.

Question is, was Jesus here talking about a SECOND COMING?

Read the context of why Jesus said what he said.

4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

What happened to Jesus?
After what happened to him, where did he go?

He was killed by the Jews on the cross at Calvary. Where did he go then?

He ascended into heaven after instructing and commissioning his church.

5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Thomas was thinking of an earthly place and was indirectly asking THE RESURRECTED CHRIST for earthly directions.

Jesus responded in a very gentle and caring way as to not discourage his disciples what must happen to them also in order for the context of the beginning of the versus of John 14 were explained by Jesus.

Jesus said "Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me"

Now we can understand that this chapter after the resurrection of Christ was in preparation of the path that lies ahead of the disciples. Jesus new it wasn't pretty so that is why he would gently ease them in by saying "Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me".

Jesus didn't want to come in a direct manner and tell his disciples before they were commissioned or at the beginning of their commission by telling them:

Look Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me, in order for you to know where I am going, you must in like manner be KILLED for my sake.


Again let us ask the questions we pondered above:

WHEN HE WILL RECEIVE US TO HIMSELF?


Oh, you see the question of WHEN indicates the HOW.

THE WHEN IS WHEN WE DIE KEEPING THE FAITH
THE HOW IS THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD

Jesus obviously could not tell them this to protect them from cowering from their mission objective. So he started the chapter by telling them:

Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me

As Jesus gave a parable about the THIEF (death) that comes upon us on a day and hour we know not, to BREAK (kill) our EARTHLY HOUSE (earthly bodies), then the day of the LORD will come for that person. And so Jesus would warn the faithful to keep watch, meaning to keep vigilant in faith until death, because no man knows the day or the hour of their passing away (death).

So the WHEN IS WHEN WE DIE

The HOW is the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD that began when our forerunner to the resurrection paved the way and allotted each faithful their MANIFEST TOKEN as an INHERITANCE to internal life to collect it after they die. Jesus has already left us this inheritance that Saint Paul called the crown of righteousness that is already laid up for me, but not only me but all those who love HIS APPEARING, meaning that the faithful eagerly await to be away from the body (pass away) and then to be present with The Lord.

Saint Paul contends with false teachings of the early 1st century church fathers by saying if the DEAD RISE NOT, THEN CHRIST IS NOT RISEN and those who have died are truly PERISHED.

Therefore the HOW, IS THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD and any spiritually minded faithful would make this following statement to those who say that the resurrection of the dead is at a future End of Age event tied to the SECOND COMING:

YOU CANNOT HAVE A RESURRECTED CHRIST WITHOUT THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.


Saint Paul contended with the false teachings of the early church fathers by saying clearly that if THE DEAD RISE NOT THEN CHRIST IS NOT RISEN THEN OUR FAITH IS IN VAIN AND WE ARE FOUND DECEITFUL WITNESSES.

Now do you understand the real context of what Jesus was saying that when put bluntly goes like this YOU CAN'T SEE ME THE WORLD WILL NEVER SEE ME FOR THEY DON'T KNOW THE WAY BUT YOU KNOW THE WAY BECAUSE I AM IN YOU AND MY HOLY SPIRIT WILL RESURRECT YOU TO REUNITE YOU WITH ME IN HEAVEN AND THAT IS WHERE I AM WHERE YOU WILL ALSO BE WITH ME FOREVER

ROMANS 8:11

 

[Serpentslayer]

The basic four question criteria of any meaningful and rationale form of communication entails the following:

THE WHY
THE WHEN
THE HOW
THE WHERE

WHY. WHEN. HOW. WHERE



THE WHY: Is because of Christ our forerunner to the resurrection
THE WHEN: Is when we die
THE HOW: Is the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD
THE WHERE: Is to HEAVENLY NEW JERUSALEM

 

[Bible2]

snumerouno said in post 2:

Jesus said he will return. The angels told the apostles that Jesus would return. The truth of the parousia is proclaimed all throughout the New Testament. The Nicene Creed and Apostles Creed affirm that Christ will return. So all that is left to do is believe this great truth of the second coming.

Amen.

Jesus will return "in like manner" as he ascended (Acts 1:11b), in that just as at the end of his first coming, he was seen by literal eyes to ascend physically from the Mount of Olives into a literal cloud and on into heaven (Acts 1:9,12, cf. Luke 24:39), so at his 2nd coming, he will be seen in literal clouds by literal eyes (Revelation 1:7, Matthew 24:30) to physically descend from heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and set his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:3-21).

When Jesus returns, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 19:7-21, Matthew 24:29-31), he will descend bodily from heaven on a white horse (Revelation 19:7-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) with all the holy angels (Matthew 25:31; 2 Thessalonians 1:7) for all the world to see (Matthew 24:27,30, Revelation 1:7). Then the church will be bodily resurrected (if dead) or physically changed (if alive) into immortality (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 20:4-6) and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, he will judge the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48) and marry its obedient part (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12) in the clouds, before it mounts white horses and comes back down from sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the world's armies (Revelation 19:19,21) and the Antichrist and False Prophet (Revelation 19:20), and has Lucifer (Satan) bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3).

Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54), while the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's defeated armies (Revelation 19:17-18). Then Jesus and the obedient part of the church will rule the surviving nations with a rod of iron for the full 1,000 years of the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2). After the 1,000 years are over, Lucifer will be released from the bottomless pit and bring about the Gog/Magog rebellion, only to be defeated for the last time (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

At least 7 years after that defeat (Ezekiel 39:9b), the great white throne judgment will occur, in which all those who hadn't been resurrected and judged at Jesus' return will be resurrected and judged (Revelation 20:11-15). Then God will create a new heaven (a new first heaven: a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1; 2 Peter 3:10b,13). Then God the Father will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:3), and he will dwell on the earth with Jesus and the church (Revelation 21:3).

In one area outside the walls of New Jerusalem on the new earth will be the lake of fire (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8) in which all of unsaved humanity will be punished forever in fire and brimstone with Lucifer and his fallen angels (Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

 

[Bible2]

Iosias said in post 8:

Where is heaven located?

There are 3 heavens (2 Corinthians 12:2b). The first heaven is the sky, the atmosphere, in which the birds fly (Genesis 1:20b). The 2nd heaven is outer space, where the sun, moon, and stars reside (Deuteronomy 4:19). Where God resides is the 3rd heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b, Revelation 4:1-2), and so it's beyond outer space, in a higher (i.e. a 4th) spatial dimension. And it's a physical place, for Jesus ascended there in his physical resurrection body (Acts 1:9-11, Luke 24:39). And Paul said that he could have visited there in his physical body (2 Corinthians 12:2). Also, Elijah and Enoch were taken there in their physical bodies (2 Kings 2:11, Genesis 5:24, Hebrews 11:5). And the two witnesses will be taken "up" there in their physical bodies (Revelation 11:11-12).

In the 3rd heaven, there's currently a literal city 1,500 miles cubed (Revelation 21:16) which is called New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the heavenly Jerusalem (Hebrews 12:22), the Jerusalem which is "above" (Galatians 4:26), and the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:2-3). In the future, God will create a new earth (a new surface of the earth) and a new heaven (a new first heaven, a new atmosphere for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will come "down" in New Jerusalem from the 3rd heaven to the new earth to live with people on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-3, Revelation 3:12b). It's New Jerusalem which has the literal pearly gates and streets of gold (Revelation 21:21) that people ascribe to "heaven". So what people think of as "heaven", in the sense of living in bliss with God, will eventually be on the new earth.

Currently, the 3rd heaven is where paradise is (2 Corinthians 12:2,4). And paradise is where believers go when they die (Luke 23:43,46). So believers go to the 3rd heaven when they die. Also, paradise is where the literal tree of life is (Revelation 2:7). And the tree of life is in New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:2). So when people go to paradise, they go to New Jerusalem.

*******

Iosias said in post 9:

The Gospel of John is not historical, hence there is reason to doubt that Jesus said the words you cite.

Actually, there's no reason to doubt any of the words of Jesus in any of the four Gospels in the Bible. For the four Gospels can be a true, word-for-word record of what Jesus said (e.g. Matthew 4:7), and an accurate account of what Jesus did (e.g. Luke 9:42-43), because the Gospels were written by eyewitnesses of Jesus (e.g. John 19:35, John 21:24) or their immediate followers (Luke 1:1-2). And the eyewitnesses of Jesus were miraculously helped by the Holy Spirit to remember exactly what Jesus said and did (John 14:26b, John 12:16). And the Gospels are scripture, meaning that they were written by the inspiration of God (2 Timothy 3:16), meaning that they weren't written by the will of man, but by holy men as they were moved by the Holy Spirit to write them (cf. 2 Peter 1:21), so that the words of the Gospels are what the Holy Spirit himself spoke (cf. Acts 1:16, Acts 28:25b). So there's no reason to believe the mistaken, man-made idea that the Gospels aren't transcripts of what Jesus said and did.

 

[snumerouno]

Dear friend in Christ let me interpret those versus for you.

No thanks. The passage is self explanatory.

 

[snumerouno]

Where is heaven located?

In heaven.

 

[ebedmelech]

The Gospel of John is not historical, hence there is reason to doubt that Jesus said the words you cite.

You saying "The Gospel of John is not historical" means nothing, hence you make no point.

You're excused...

 

[ebedmelech]

Dear friend in Christ let me interpret those versus for you...

Trust me...I know what Jesus meant in what I quoted from the scriptures. I simply provided the entire context. The focus at this point is that Jesus said "I will come again".

He will. So my focus is how do you misinterpret "I will come again"?

Thanks for the sermon though...

 

[miamited]

The Gospel of John is not historical, hence there is reason to doubt that Jesus said the words you cite.

Hi iosias,

I have a hard time understanding where you got the idea that the gospel of John is not historical, although I haven't read the book so maybe that's where I missed out. Perhaps it would be good for you to define exactly what you mean by 'historical' and exactly how that makes any difference to anything that we read in the Scriptures. I mean, by your definition of what makes a writing 'historical', can we apply those same parameters to the book of say, Deuteronomy, and determine that it also is not 'historical'?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Iosias]

Ted, I mean that the Gospel of John, whilst containing some historical traditions (cf. Charles Harold Dodd's Historical Tradition in the Fourth Gospel), is not a factual account of 'what really happened' but rather possesses a complex literary history. For more detail try Understanding the Fourth Gospel by John Ashton.